Imputed righteousness;

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Nomad

Post Tenebras Lux
Aug 9, 2009
995
143
43
58
Philadelphia, PA.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But I greatly disagree with the bent of this statement, which seems to say we somehow receive some glory out of this, and 'God owes us' if we are faithful.

Just so we're on the same page here. Are you admitting that works and obedience are the fruit of salvation and not the cause?
 

Prentis

New Member
May 25, 2011
2,047
92
0
31
Montreal, Qc
Just so we're on the same page here. Are you admitting that works and obedience are the fruit of salvation and not the cause?

Same mistake again. You see salvation as this one time event, 'got my ticket punched'!

Doing the works of the Father cannot come apart from being brought into the race, which happens at repentance. This is the beginning of salvation. We are now in Christ, then we must abide.

We ARE the ones who must be faithful, but this is not to our credit because (1) we could always of done more, and (2) when we are faithful, we have only done what we SHOULD.
 

Nomad

Post Tenebras Lux
Aug 9, 2009
995
143
43
58
Philadelphia, PA.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So, for you Prentis, we're "in by grace" and we "stay in by works?" The problem with such a notion is that it's not Biblical. Salvation is all of God, all of grace, from beginning to end.

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Maybe you could refrain from misrepresenting my position this time Prentis. I do not believe that once you "have your ticket punched" you can live any way you want. This is asinine, and you know it, based on my repeated explanations of my position. New creatures in Christ will exhibit new attributes. Got it? I can't make it any more clear.
 

Prentis

New Member
May 25, 2011
2,047
92
0
31
Montreal, Qc
Sorry if I have misrepresented your position, Nomad, it is not my intent. :)

Here is the thing. The definition of grace is wrong to start with here. Grace is power to be as he is, or to please God. By faith, we have access to grace, by which we can please God. THAT is how we are saved by grace through faith.

We are in by repentance, that is how we receive cleansing, the new nature, and a new start. In that place, grace is available. Now by faith we can take hold of this grace every day, our daily bread. Thus we are strengthened to walk with the Lord every day.

Obviously, we must learn to do this, me, you, everyone, all have been in the old nature until then, and we all need training and chastisement. But in this, it is our responsibility to respond well. A child learn when he responds to chastisement with the right attitude.

The thing is, we must die DAILY. This means the old nature, though counted as dead, still is present. If we keep it on the cross, it will not affect us... But if we make provision for the flesh, we will fall. Our responsibility now, having the choice between both natures, is to choose life, choose the new, and put to death the old.

It is possible to fall back into the old nature.
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
Here is the thing. The definition of grace is wrong to start with here. Grace is power to be as he is, or to please God. By faith, we have access to grace, by which we can please God. THAT is how we are saved by grace through faith.

Prove your definition of "grace" with the scriptures please.
 

Prentis

New Member
May 25, 2011
2,047
92
0
31
Montreal, Qc
Prove your definition of "grace" with the scriptures please.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
1 Peter 1:5
who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Peter and Paul say the same thing, using different words. :)

2 Corinthians 12:9
And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
 

Vengle

New Member
Sep 22, 2011
921
27
0
Ohio
What is God's grace? Is it a new addition only to the age of the New Covenant?

Exodus 33:17 "And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name."

What is God's grace? It is God's recognition of us: "thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name".

That grace was primarily only displayed toward Israel during the days of the Old Law Covenant with few exceptions. There were exceptions among the Gentiles though, like as Job. It was principally to Israel as a people that God said, "I know thee by name", actually meaning He recognized the nation to find the faithful among them even as He had Moses.

Ruth sought that grace of Boaz: Ruth 2:2 "And Ruth the Moabitess said unto Naomi, Let me now go to the field, and glean ears of corn after him in whose sight I shall find grace. And she said unto her, Go, my daughter."

Grace is about God's recognizing us who were dead in our sins and in our trespasses. Grace is now given widely to any of all nations to give them opportunity to prove faithful. Let me reword that: Grace is now shown to all nations as it was that nation of Israel in that God looks at all nations to recognize all of their works, thus giving them and any in them opportunity to work with Him and learn and grow to salvation.

Grace is the recognition of God that means to us that He will begin working with us and helping us to grow into something desirable to Himself.

Many have turned it into a fantasy beyond what it actually means and this in turn has lead to the corruption of much of their doctrine.

I could include more here but I won't because I see that the problem for the many is rooted in their making this all too complex. Learn to keep things simple. For the more you build your elaborate descriptions the more you allow way for your own wisdom to enter in and corrupt.
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
1 Peter 1:5
who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Peter and Paul say the same thing, using different words. :)

2 Corinthians 12:9
And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Here is what I see in the scriptures you quoted.
1) Grace saves us through faith which is nothing earned but rather a gift.

2) Our salvation is maintained and protected by the power of God through faith.

3) ( Earlier Paul had asked the Lord to eliminate a handicap) The Lord explained to Paul that His Grace would be enough to protect and keep him and that the handicap needed to remain in order that Christ's power continue to manifest through Paul.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,794
19,242
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Here is what I see in the scriptures you quoted.
1) Grace saves us through faith which is nothing earned but rather a gift.

2) Our salvation is maintained and protected by the power of God through faith.

3) ( Earlier Paul had asked the Lord to eliminate a handicap) The Lord explained to Paul that His Grace would be enough to protect and keep him and that the handicap needed to remain in order that Christ's power continue to manifest through Paul.

The grace of God is His strength being made manifest in us! Miraculous things FOLLOW those who are the Lord's.
 

Vengle

New Member
Sep 22, 2011
921
27
0
Ohio
The grace of God is His strength being made manifest in us! Miraculous things FOLLOW those who are the Lord's.

It is His returning of us to what we were supposed to be in His image from the beginning.

God is not rewarding us for sin. He is not giving us more than the perfection we tossed away.

When He created us He looked at His work and pronounced it "very good".

That is His grace to us. That is why He bothers to take notice of us, even as King David asked.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,794
19,242
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The bible lays out the gospel as POWER unto salvation. Paul preached in word AND power. Without power from heaven to walk as Jesus walked we are still slaves of sin. We are still stuck operating in the flesh. But the flesh power must die in order for us to partake of the life of Christ. Those who walk in RESURRECTION power can now follow Christ in the Spirit.

Grace is POWER. Divine power to walk as Jesus walked...to be an actual light in the world...not a dead lightbulb but a POWERED light. Powered by what? By GRACE!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Prentis

Nomad

Post Tenebras Lux
Aug 9, 2009
995
143
43
58
Philadelphia, PA.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Wow. Truly amazing. Let's properly define "grace." The Greek word translated "grace" has a fairly wide semantic range, but the definition in question here is # 2 & 2a. Notice that "grace" is basically God's favor or kindness toward individuals, which he demonstrates by exerting his influence in their lives. "Grace" is not that influence itself. It is God's disposition toward the one who receives that influence.

χάρις

charis

1) grace
1a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech

2) good will, loving-kindness, favour
2a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues


3) what is due to grace
3a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
3b) the token or proof of grace, benefit
3b1) a gift of grace
3b2) benefit, bounty

4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

Part of Speech: noun feminine
 

Insight

New Member
Aug 7, 2011
1,259
5
0
Wow. Truly amazing. Let's properly define "grace." The Greek word translated "grace" has a fairly wide semantic range, but the definition in question here is # 2 & 2a. Notice that "grace" is basically God's favor or kindness toward individuals, which he demonstrates by exerting his influence in their lives. "Grace" is not that influence itself. It is God's disposition toward the one who receives that influence.

χάρις

charis

1) grace
1a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech

2) good will, loving-kindness, favour
2a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues


3) what is due to grace
3a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
3b) the token or proof of grace, benefit
3b1) a gift of grace
3b2) benefit, bounty

4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

Part of Speech: noun feminine


Mercy & Grace

What a difference two words can make! In the below verse you will find that “mercy” is something received, while grace is something found. It is very worth while meditating on this verse, read it slowly. Allow your mind to consider the depth of such words and the feelings they instil in you.

You might like to ask yourself the question:

When praying to the Father do I conceal my sins before Him? Do I come to Him openly, like that of a sacrifice which has been splayed open for inspection? It is on this basis that we can obtain or lay hold of His mercies, and in time, find grace in His sight. Many Churches today teach instantaneous grace which is contrary to Bible teaching. A quick study of the scriptures proves that grace is something which is found "in" God…and not in us, and often over a long period of time i.e. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. This was the result of many acts of obedience throughout his life.

Hebrews 4:16

"Let us (saints) therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need".

Boldly - freedom in speaking, unreservedness in speech openly, frankly, i.e without concealment without ambiguity, fearless confidence, cheerful courage, boldness,

Obtain - to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it. (to take upon one's self)

Find - to come upon, hit upon, to meet with (after searching, to find a thing sought)

Mercy & Grace vary greatly in their application and often can be misrepresented as being the same.

Grace by definition means good will, loving-kindness & favour (of God towards us…His children)

Mercy: by definition means to show (act) kindness or good will towards the miserable and the afflicted, joined with a desire to help them (an act of kindness)

Before we receive the Fathers mercies and find grace in His sight we need to ask the question: How do we come boldly to His throne of grace? The below verse explains how.

Hebrews 10:22

Let us (saints) draw near (to God) with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts (minds) sprinkled (cleansed) from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water (living word).

Near – means approach

True – means sincere

Heart – means mind - the seat of interlect and emotion

The above verse conveys a need to have the word of God living in us, in our minds. This of course means reading our Bibles daily, studying passages and confirming, with confidence, the one true faith. This mind when making prayerful requests, will receive mercies in abundance, as they have endeavoured to cleanse the mind through daily washing. Then and only then will we find Grace with God our Father and receive His abundant mercy.

Now unto him (God) that is able to keep (protect) you from falling, and to present you faultless (like that of a sacrifice without blemish) before the presence of his glory (judgement) with exceeding joy,

Never forget our Father is able to present us without blemish “if” we allow Him.

Insight
 

Vengle

New Member
Sep 22, 2011
921
27
0
Ohio
What is God's grace? Is it a new addition only to the age of the New Covenant?

Exodus 33:17 "And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name."

What is God's grace? It is God's recognition of us: "thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name".

That grace was primarily only displayed toward Israel during the days of the Old Law Covenant with few exceptions. There were exceptions among the Gentiles though, like as Job. It was principally to Israel as a people that God said, "I know thee by name", actually meaning He recognized the nation to find the faithful among them even as He had Moses.

Ruth sought that grace of Boaz: Ruth 2:2 "And Ruth the Moabitess said unto Naomi, Let me now go to the field, and glean ears of corn after him in whose sight I shall find grace. And she said unto her, Go, my daughter."

Grace is about God's recognizing us who were dead in our sins and in our trespasses. Grace is now given widely to any of all nations to give them opportunity to prove faithful. Let me reword that: Grace is now shown to all nations as it was that nation of Israel in that God looks at all nations to recognize all of their works, thus giving them and any in them opportunity to work with Him and learn and grow to salvation.

Grace is the recognition of God that means to us that He will begin working with us and helping us to grow into something desirable to Himself.

Many have turned it into a fantasy beyond what it actually means and this in turn has lead to the corruption of much of their doctrine.

I could include more here but I won't because I see that the problem for the many is rooted in their making this all too complex. Learn to keep things simple. For the more you build your elaborate descriptions the more you allow way for your own wisdom to enter in and corrupt.

I should refine that explanation just a hair.

We find grace with God.

God recognizes us because we have found grace where? In His eyes. Genesis 6:8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD."


The concept is based upon the nuptial arrangement in the sense that God takes responsibility for his creation and demands of it faithfulness to its created purpose: Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house."

Job 34:21 "For his eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.
22 There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves."

Grace is not found by wicked men. Psalms 11:5 "The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth."
 

Insight

New Member
Aug 7, 2011
1,259
5
0
Wow. Truly amazing. Let's properly define "grace." The Greek word translated "grace" has a fairly wide semantic range, but the definition in question here is # 2 & 2a. Notice that "grace" is basically God's favor or kindness toward individuals, which he demonstrates by exerting his influence in their lives. "Grace" is not that influence itself. It is God's disposition toward the one who receives that influence.

χάρις

charis

1) grace
1a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech

2) good will, loving-kindness, favour
2a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues


3) what is due to grace
3a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
3b) the token or proof of grace, benefit
3b1) a gift of grace
3b2) benefit, bounty

4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

Part of Speech: noun feminine

Nomad, where did you glean your definition from?

I found it more comprehensive than most

Insight