The Day Of The LORD - What Is It?

Nope!, C.R.Stam was a Hyper-Dispensationalist which also means a believer on the false Pre-trib rapture theory which John Darby in 1830's Great Britain taught. If you believe what you posted, then it likely means you are allied with that group and their false doctrines of Hyper-Grace or Hyper-Dispensationalism, which are leaven doctrines from men, and not from The Bible.

The Old Testament prophets show tons of detail about the events to happen on the "day of the Lord" with God's judgment of the earth and sinners on that day, and with His establishing His Kingdom on earth. So any... true Bible believer would never miss all that Scripture evidence.

Isa 2:11-12
11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
KJV

Isa 13:6-9
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
KJV


Either you have FAILED TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK in God's written Word, OR... you INTENTIONALLY BYPASS those Scriptures about the "day of the Lord" given through God's Old Testament prophets. From those prophets is actually where Apostles Paul and Peter were quoting from about that "day of the Lord" on the FINAL DAY of this present world!

That is why Apostle Paul said when 'they' shall say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" shall come upon them (1 Thessalonians 5:1-9).

So DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION is when those deceived will be saying that "Peace and safety", and that is the time just PRIOR to God's "sudden destruction" upon them ON THAT "day of the Lord" last day event.

But the Pre-trib Rapture theory school goes AGAINST THOSE SCRIPTURES, teaching the LIE that the "day of the Lord" BEGINS just prior to the time of "great tribulation", which is NOT written. And it those MEN you follow, LIARS they are.

Beware New Brethren in Christ:
Always search The Scriptures for YOURSELF, to see if a thing is written or not. False prophets like C.R. Stam depends on you NOT doing that for yourself.

Davy said:

But the Pre-trib Rapture theory school goes AGAINST THOSE SCRIPTURES, teaching the LIE that the "day of the Lord" BEGINS just prior to the time of "great tribulation", which is NOT written. And it those MEN you follow, LIARS they are.

Always search The Scriptures for YOURSELF, to see if a thing is written or not. False prophets like C.R. Stam depends on you NOT doing that for yourself.

Click to expand...

Perhaps during your own searches of the Scriptures you missed these clues from the Old Testament that the church does not go through the Great Tribulation, i.e. the rapture is pre-tribulation:

Isaiah 26:
[Refers to the resurrection]
[The resurrected Christians have a home in our Father's house - John 14:2-3. This verse alludes to the church being raptured and hiding during the tribulation.]
[The Great Tribulation.]

Psalm 27:
[During the "time of trouble" the church will be hidden in God's house, and they will be set upon a rock, i.e. Jesus.]

Psalm 57:
[Again, alludes to the church being hidden during a time of trouble.]

Psalm 83 (MKJV):
[The nations conspire against God's people Israel and plot against the church, who God hides by rapturing them.]

Zephaniah 2 (WEB):
[The church will be hidden during the day of God's wrath - the Great Tribulation.]

Another example, or type, is Enoch, who was caught up (raptured) before the tribulation of the flood - prophetic of the church being raptured before the Great Tribulation.

GRACE ambassador said:

"But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that
I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that The Day of
The LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall
say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them,
as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
(I Thessalonians 5:1-3)​

"
...One pastor...teaches that the Body of Christ will go through the
tribulation and that its Rapture to be with Christ will follow the tribulation...

...Now please think [ prayerfully And ] carefully. Will anyone be saying,
“Peace and safety” at the close of the “great tribulation”? Will anyone
rejoice in “Peace and safety” as the battle of Armageddon rages?

How, then, can this passage about “The Day Of The LORD” refer only to the
return of Christ after the tribulation? But when we see that “The Day Of The
LORD” begins with, rather than after the tribulation, all is in order.

As we know, the seven years of the tribulation will begin with the rider on the
“white horse” (Rev. 6:1,2—evidently Antichrist cf. Rev. 19:11 — The True Christ),
who goes forth “conquering and to conquer.”

Like Antiochus Epiphanes, he will “come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom
by flatteries” (Dan. 11:21). All will go well for him and he will bring to the world
a kind of peace that will win him universal allegiance. “Peace and safety”! the
world will exclaim.

But of the rider on the next horse we read: “and power was given to him that sat
thereon to take peace from the earth” (Rev. 6:4). Then follow war, famine and
death (Vers. 3-8). This “destruction” will come suddenly when, after three and a
half years (“in the midst of the week”), Antichrist will betray Israel and break his
seven-year covenant with them (Dan. 9:27), and will, like Antiochus Epiphanes,
desecrate the temple (Dan. 9:27; 11:31; Matt. 24:15; II Thes. 2:3,4).

There we have it! Our “post-tribulation” brethren say that “The Day Of The LORD
follows the tribulation.” Paul, in I Thessalonians 5:1-3, makes it clear that The Day
Of The LORD includes the tribulation. They have men in the closing, most terrible
hours of the tribulation saying, “Peace and safety”!

They have The LORD’s Speedy Judgment of the ungodly described by “travail upon
a woman with child”! No, the Rapture of the Body of Christ to be with Him will not
follow the tribulation; it will precede it...
"
(CR Stam)

FULL study:
The Day Of The LORD - What Is It?

GRACE And Peace...

Click to expand...

The point blank easily understood definition of what it is can be read at 2 Thes 1:6-9 Grace

keithr said:

Perhaps during your own searches of the Scriptures you missed these clues from the Old Testament that the church does not go through the Great Tribulation, i.e. the rapture is pre-tribulation:

Isaiah 26:

19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

[Refers to the resurrection]

20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
[/

​

[The resurrected Christians have a home in our Father's house - John 14:2-3. This verse alludes to the church being raptured and hiding during the tribulation.]

21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.​

[The Great Tribulation.]

Psalm 27:

5) For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.​

[During the "time of trouble" the church will be hidden in God's house, and they will be set upon a rock, i.e. Jesus.]

Psalm 57:

1) Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast.​

[Again, alludes to the church being hidden during a time of trouble.]

Psalm 83 (MKJV):

3) They take shrewd counsel against Your people, and plot against Your hidden ones.​

[The nations conspire against God's people Israel and plot against the church, who God hides by rapturing them.]

Zephaniah 2 (WEB):

3) Seek Yahweh, all you humble of the land, who have kept his ordinances. Seek righteousness. Seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of Yahweh’s anger.​

[The church will be hidden during the day of God's wrath - the Great Tribulation.]

Another example, or type, is Enoch, who was caught up (raptured) before the tribulation of the flood - prophetic of the church being raptured before the Great Tribulation.

Click to expand...

keithr said:

Perhaps during your own searches of the Scriptures you missed these clues from the Old Testament that the church does not go through the Great Tribulation, i.e. the rapture is pre-tribulation:

Isaiah 26:

19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

[Refers to the resurrection]

20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.​

[The resurrected Christians have a home in our Father's house - John 14:2-3. This verse alludes to the church being raptured and hiding during the tribulation.]

21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.​

[The Great Tribulation.]

Psalm 27:

5) For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.​

[During the "time of trouble" the church will be hidden in God's house, and they will be set upon a rock, i.e. Jesus.]

Psalm 57:

1) Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast.​

[Again, alludes to the church being hidden during a time of trouble.]

Psalm 83 (MKJV):

3) They take shrewd counsel against Your people, and plot against Your hidden ones.​

[The nations conspire against God's people Israel and plot against the church, who God hides by rapturing them.]

Zephaniah 2 (WEB):

3) Seek Yahweh, all you humble of the land, who have kept his ordinances. Seek righteousness. Seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of Yahweh’s anger.​

[The church will be hidden during the day of God's wrath - the Great Tribulation.]

Another example, or type, is Enoch, who was caught up (raptured) before the tribulation of the flood - prophetic of the church being raptured before the Great Tribulation.

Click to expand...

The following BIBLE PROOF of Christ's coming to gather His saints AFTER the tribulation totally SCRAPS your error in interpretation of those above verses.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

For those who stay sharp in reading God's Word, you should notice those two gathering events by Christ that I underlined. The Matthew 24 version is about the 'asleep' saints that Apostle Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He comes. And the Mark 13 version is about the saints still alive on earth that will be "caught up" to Jesus and them at His coming. Thus Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 was actually teaching about Christ's coming and gathering of the Church from the above Scripture understanding. Lord Jesus had obviously made Paul understand that.


WHY... do so many brethren MISS reading what Lord Jesus said in the above, and instead heed the leaven doctrines of men about a fake pre-trib rapture?

God has given me many gifts, and one of them is my artistic ability. And one of the things the artist has to learn is how to 'see'. And I don't mean checking vision by an eye doctor. What I'm talking about is the artist has to learn to shut off what their 'mind' tells them they are seeing, and instead actually interpret accurately what their eyes truly 'see'.

So when teaching my children about that, I drew some drawings of an apple that I had set on the table, and told them to color that drawing of the apple. They took the most red crayon they had and painted it completely, the same local color of red. Then I asked them, is that how that apple on the table really looks? Is it one color of red all over, or is it a darker red near the bottom in shadow, and even has a couple spots on top that are kind of yellowish, and the top part is more of a lighter red? When they saw it, they said YES! Then they understood.

Our mind works in strange ways to fool us at times. So it's important to understand how our mind can influence our interpretation of life and of course even the reading of God's Word. Just like the apple, our 'mind' tells us an apple is red, so we go for the most local red color and color the whole thing that one color, even though that's not really all the colors our eyes actually see. Likewise, if we've heard of a leaven doctrine from men all our lives, our mind will try to tell us a certain Scripture means according that leaven doctrine, so we won't actually read it with 'eyes to see' and 'ears to hear' like we are supposed to. We will read it with a pre-configured mindset of what it already says, even before actually studying it.

GRACE ambassador said:

"But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that
I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that The Day of
The LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall
say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them,
as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
(I Thessalonians 5:1-3)​

"
...One pastor...teaches that the Body of Christ will go through the
tribulation and that its Rapture to be with Christ will follow the tribulation...

...Now please think [ prayerfully And ] carefully. Will anyone be saying,
“Peace and safety” at the close of the “great tribulation”? Will anyone
rejoice in “Peace and safety” as the battle of Armageddon rages?

How, then, can this passage about “The Day Of The LORD” refer only to the
return of Christ after the tribulation? But when we see that “The Day Of The
LORD” begins with, rather than after the tribulation, all is in order.

As we know, the seven years of the tribulation will begin with the rider on the
“white horse” (Rev. 6:1,2—evidently Antichrist cf. Rev. 19:11 — The True Christ),
who goes forth “conquering and to conquer.”

Like Antiochus Epiphanes, he will “come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom
by flatteries” (Dan. 11:21). All will go well for him and he will bring to the world
a kind of peace that will win him universal allegiance. “Peace and safety”! the
world will exclaim.

But of the rider on the next horse we read: “and power was given to him that sat
thereon to take peace from the earth” (Rev. 6:4). Then follow war, famine and
death (Vers. 3-8). This “destruction” will come suddenly when, after three and a
half years (“in the midst of the week”), Antichrist will betray Israel and break his
seven-year covenant with them (Dan. 9:27), and will, like Antiochus Epiphanes,
desecrate the temple (Dan. 9:27; 11:31; Matt. 24:15; II Thes. 2:3,4).

There we have it! Our “post-tribulation” brethren say that “The Day Of The LORD
follows the tribulation.” Paul, in I Thessalonians 5:1-3, makes it clear that The Day
Of The LORD includes the tribulation. They have men in the closing, most terrible
hours of the tribulation saying, “Peace and safety”!

They have The LORD’s Speedy Judgment of the ungodly described by “travail upon
a woman with child”! No, the Rapture of the Body of Christ to be with Him will not
follow the tribulation; it will precede it...
"
(CR Stam)

FULL study:
The Day Of The LORD - What Is It?

GRACE And Peace...

Click to expand...

All the world is that great tribulation which has come upon Christ, and the day of the Lord is that day He comes to "each one in his own order."

ScottA said:

All the world is that great tribulation which has come upon Christ, and the day of the Lord is that day He comes to "each one in his own order."

Click to expand...

More 'dung' that is not written in God's Word.

The "great tribulation" is what JESUS showed it is.

The "day of the Lord" is what God's prophets and Christ's Apostles showed what it is.

Davy said:

More 'dung' that is not written in God's Word.

The "great tribulation" is what JESUS showed it is.

The "day of the Lord" is what God's prophets and Christ's Apostles showed what it is.

Click to expand...

You speak the words but do not understand, just as those did who went before.

ScottA said:

You speak the words but do not understand, just as those did who went before.

Click to expand...

Wow! You just claimed that Jesus Christ spoke dung! I was repeating what He said, didn't come from me. What I said about the "great tribulation" and "day of the Lord" is from Him, I even put those subjects in QUOTES when you failed to do even that, you have such disdain for His Word! Who are you, and why have you come to a Christian forum with your falseness? You even put your own words in quotes instead, as if what YOU say is more important that what He said!

Davy said:

Wow! You just claimed that Jesus Christ spoke dung! I was repeating what He said, didn't come from me. What I said about the "great tribulation" and "day of the Lord" is from Him, I even put those subjects in QUOTES when you failed to do even that, you have such disdain for His Word! Who are you, and why have you come to a Christian forum with your falseness? You even put your own words in quotes instead, as if what YOU say is more important that what He said!

Click to expand...

Typical. You project your error on me, when I was comparing you to those who knowing the scriptures but not having understanding, rejected the truth from Jesus.

Did you think that the gentiles would do better than Israel? Even you yourself have proven otherwise by your reaction. The kingdom of God came back in their time, but even now you are still putting it off and speaking of dung.

ScottA said:

Typical. You project your error on me, when I was comparing you to those who knowing the scriptures but not having understanding, rejected the truth from Jesus.

Did you think that the gentiles would do better than Israel? Even you yourself have proven otherwise by your reaction. The kingdom of God came back in their time, but even now you are still putting it off and speaking of dung.

Click to expand...

Too late. You've already shown true Bible students here that you are not following God's written Word, but that you think to make up your 'own' word. Must be what you think is OK as learned by heeding false preachers whom God did not call.

Davy said:

Too late. You've already shown true Bible students here that you are not following God's written Word, but that you think to make up your 'own' word. Must be what you think is OK as learned by heeding false preachers whom God did not call.

Click to expand...

The Pharisees were students too.

As for me, God is my only Teacher. You too will learn from Him.

Davy said:

The following BIBLE PROOF of Christ's coming to gather His saints AFTER the tribulation totally SCRAPS your error in interpretation of those above verses.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

For those who stay sharp in reading God's Word, you should notice those two gathering events by Christ that I underlined. The Matthew 24 version is about the 'asleep' saints that Apostle Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He comes. And the Mark 13 version is about the saints still alive on earth that will be "caught up" to Jesus and them at His coming.

Click to expand...

Those verses, including what you have underlined, say nothing about whether the gathered elect were alive or dead when they were gathered. Making such assumptions is not being sharp in reading God's word!

The "four winds" mentioned in Matthew 24:31 shows that it referring to the earth, not heaven. As the WEB translates it:

Matthew 24:

and the GNB interprets it as:


Similarly Mark 13:27 is referring to everywhere on the earth.

Thus Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 was actually teaching about Christ's coming and gathering of the Church from the above Scripture understanding. Lord Jesus had obviously made Paul understand that.

Click to expand...

Yes, Paul was talking about the rapture and gathering together of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4 - that is obvious. But it has no bearing on whether the rapture takes place before or after the Great Tribulation. Those verses are not proof unless you can prove the "elect" or "chosen ones" are the Church - the Tribulation saints are not part of the Church.

To get a good understanding of when the rapture will occur we need to study Jesus' revelation to John, which foretells the future of the Church and the rest of mankind.

Chapters two and three of Revelation are the letters from Jesus to the seven churches. These letters are also prophetic of the church during the Gospel age. Then in Revelation 4:1 John describes a voice from heaven saying “Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter”, i.e. he was shown (symbolically) events that will happen at the end of the Gospel age, after the rapture (“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord”, 1 Thessalonians 4:17).

John is then shown a vision of the throne of God in heaven, and he sees that around the throne there were twenty-four seats, and “upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold” (Revelation 4:4). These twenty-four elders represent a group, and we know that they cannot be tribulation believers because they are contrasted with them in Revelation 7:13-14. They are not angels because they are contrasted with them in Revelation 7:11 (“all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts”). They are not the nation of Israel because they’re distinct from them (Revelation 7 & 12).

Their distinguishing characteristics are that they are on thrones (“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne”, Revelation 3:21), they have white clothes (“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment”, Revelation 3:5), they have gold crowns (“be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life”, Revelation 2:10), and they sing the song of the redeemed (“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth”, Revelation 5:9-10). Note that they’re made kings and priests (and they’re not from Israel only, but from every nation), and only three groups are kings and priests: Melchisidec, Jesus and the Church. John identifies himself and the Church with this group too (Revelation 1:4-6 “John to the seven churches which are in Asia”, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father”). These twenty-four elders clearly represent the resurrected Church, and they are in heaven with Jesus and God.

Note that Revelation 4:5 says “there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne”, and Revelation 1:20 identifies these, “the seven lampstands are the seven churches” (ESV). So the churches that were on the earth in chapters one to three are in heaven in chapter four, which is in harmony with chapter four describing events after the rapture.

In the first three chapters of Revelation there are twenty-four titles of Jesus, which are all gentile or church type identifiers. From chapter four on (after the rapture), the style is very Jewish, e.g. Revelation 5:5 “Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book and to loose the seven seals thereof”, and Revelation 5:6 “stood a Lamb as it had been slain” – the titles in bold are Jewish titles of the Messiah.

Chapter five describes Jesus unsealing and opening the scroll. Note for later that verse 8 says that the twenty-four elders each had harps, not palms. Chapters 6 to 19 describes the events that will occur in the 7 year period after the rapture (the so-called seventieth week of Daniel, Daniel 9:24-27). Jesus described this period, the “Great Tribulation”, in Matthew 24:14-22, which ends with “except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened”. This Great Tribulation affects the whole world, but particularly it affects Israel, hence in verse 16 He says, “Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains”. This shall be worse for Israel than the Holocaust, during which one in three Jews were killed. According to Zechariah 13:8-9 two out of three shall be killed (“And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein”).

The purpose of the Tribulation is part explained by Hosea 5:15: “I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me earnestly” (ASV). It is the day of the wrath of the Lamb (Revelation 6:16-17), His wrath against them who rejected Him and had Him crucified. It is also described as the day of the LORD, “Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he will make an end, yea, a terrible end, of all them that dwell in the land” (Zephaniah 1:18, ASV). (John says in Revelation 1:10, “I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”, i.e. he was about to see things pertaining to this time of tribulation.)

Note that the Tribulation doesn’t begin until the Lamb opens the seal, and the Lamb doesn’t receive the scroll until after the 24 elders have cast their crowns before the throne (Revelation 4:10), so the Church has been raptured or resurrected before the Tribulation starts, and the Church does not go through the Tribulation.

Revelation chapter 6 ends with “For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” Then chapter 7 answers that question. It tells that there will be some special servants who will be sealed - “Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads” (Revelation 7:3). It also tells us “the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel” (Revelation 7:4). It then goes on to detail that there will be 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel (totalling 144,000). They are all Jews.

[To be continued.]

[Continuing from my previous post.]

The work of the sealed servants then results in a lot of people being saved – “After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands” (Revelation 7:9). As mentioned above, the 24 elders, representing the Church from before the rapture, held harps in their hands (Revelation 5:8), whereas these saved people (now in heaven, before the throne) hold palms. These people are a different group (which is why John didn’t know who they were – Revelation 7:13-14); they are people who are saved out of the Tribulation as a result of the evangelising work of the 144,000 sealed servants from Israel, and they are before the throne of God “and serve him day and night” (Revelation 7:15). These are the "chosen ones" or "elect" that are gathered, as described in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27.

Revelation 7:17 says that “God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes”. Why were they crying? Probably over lost opportunities. They may regret not having become Christians before the rapture and the Great Tribulation had started, so they missed out on becoming one of the elders, i.e. members of the body Christ and the bride of the Lamb. They missed out on the greater glory of sitting on thrones and reigning as kings and priests.

keithr said:

Those verses, including what you have underlined, say nothing about whether the gathered elect were alive or dead when they were gathered.

Click to expand...

Yeah, they DO... reference where they were GATHERED FROM! You simply can't stand that those verses do reference that, so I must assume you prefer man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory LIE.

Matt 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

That above, where are those saints gathered FROM? From "heaven", AS WRITTEN THERE! So don't try and tell me you can't read that either.

How then does that idea of those saints being gathered FROM HEAVEN on that day of Christ's coming fit what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4? EASY! Paul said that Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints WITH HIM WHEN HE COMES. Well, where is Jesus going to be coming FROM? From HEAVEN! This is such a NO BRAINER!



Mark 13:27
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

And with those, where are those saints shown being gathered FROM? From the EARTH! Again a NO BRAINER! Paul said those in Christ still alive will be "caught up" to Jesus on that day!

Davy said:

How then does that idea of those saints being gathered FROM HEAVEN on that day of Christ's coming fit what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4? EASY! Paul said that Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints WITH HIM WHEN HE COMES. Well, where is Jesus going to be coming FROM? From HEAVEN! This is such a NO BRAINER!

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This is what it says:

1 Thessalonians 4 (WEB):

It says Jesus will descend from heaven, i.e. he will return to the Earth. Then the dead in Christ will be resurrected to life by God ("Now God raised up the Lord, and will also raise us up by his power", 1 Corinthians 6:14) - so they were not previously alive, living neither on the Earth nor in heaven. Then the living Christians will be raptured (changed and snatched) to join them and Jesus.

This is a separate event from the "gathering" passages in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. In that event there is darkening of the sun and moon, etc., and no resurrection of dead Christians, and Jesus sends angels to gather the "chosen ones".

keithr said:

This is what it says:

1 Thessalonians 4 (WEB):

(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

It says Jesus will descend from heaven, i.e. he will return to the Earth. Then the dead in Christ will be resurrected to life by God ("Now God raised up the Lord, and will also raise us up by his power", 1 Corinthians 6:14) - so they were not previously alive, living neither on the Earth nor in heaven. Then the living Christians will be raptured (changed and snatched) to join them and Jesus.

This is a separate event from the "gathering" passages in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. In that event there is darkening of the sun and moon, etc., and no resurrection of dead Christians, and Jesus sends angels to gather the "chosen ones".

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Yeah, it DOES SAY what I pointed to, the FACT that Jesus brings the asleep saints with Him, WHEN HE COMES.

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV

And THOSE saints are the ones being gathered from HEAVEN per the Matthew 24:31 verse...

Matt 24:31
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

For someone deceived on men's false 'dead in the ground' theory, I can understand why they would have a problem understanding that the 'asleep' saints are gathered FROM HEAVEN when Jesus comes, simply because they believe the Jew's doctrine of soul sleep, which is a false doctrine.

Apostle Paul showed in 2 Corinthians 5, and Peter in 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4, that when our flesh dies, our inner part, our spirit, continues to the heavenly dimension. Jesus showed this also in Matthew 10:28. At the same time, it is important to remember that Paul also taught that the body type of the world to come is a "spiritual body", not another flesh body (1 Corinthians 15:45-50).

So how... is the above, "from one end of heaven to the other" meant? When Jesus comes in the cloud, FROM THE HEAVENLY DIMENSION, He brings the asleep saints with Him FROM HEAVEN, because Paul showed they are already there!

1 Thess 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
KJV

That KJV word "prevent" there is not accurate, because the actual Greek word means 'PRECEDE', which means go beforehand. We who remain still alive on earth waiting for Christ's return shall not PRECEDE the saints that have already died in Christ. That means THEY ARE ALREADY THERE IN HEAVEN WITH JESUS. Is that not what Paul meant in 2 Corinthians 5 when he said to be absent from the body is to present with The LORD? So yeah, those asleep saints are raised, and are with Him from Heaven when He comes.

What about that other part, that "to the other"? Ask yourself, where is the heavenly dimension to be revealed to ALL... on that day of Christ's future coming? With the 'change' to our spiritual body at the 'twinkling of an eye' on the 'last trump', and per the veil being removed from the nations per Isaiah 25, and death swallowed up in victory, it means the heavenly dimension is going to be revealed RIGHT HERE ON EARTH ON THAT DAY OF CHRIST'S FUTURE RETURN.

So there again, Jesus bringing those asleep saints with Him, means He literally brings them from the heavenly dimension when He comes. Then the saints still alive on earth are changed, and caught up to Him and them on that same time also. And the Mark 13:27 verse is about those still alive on earth that are caught up by Jesus.

Thus like I said, those Olivet discourse verses of Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 are the SAME teaching that Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering to Christ Jesus.

Davy said:

And THOSE saints are the ones being gathered from HEAVEN per the Matthew 24:31 verse...

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You are assuming that Paul is referring to the same event that Jesus is referring to when he answers the disciple's question "Tell us, when will these things be? What is the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?" (Matthew 24:3). But he is not! Paul is comforting Christians, telling them not to grieve for their fellow Christians who have died, explaining that they are not lost and they will not miss out, because when Jesus returns for his bride, the Church, the dead Christians will be raised to life first, then immediately after that those still alive will be forcibly seized ("caught up") to join them, and all Christians (those that have died and those still alive) will be changed and given the divine nature. As he says in 1 Corinthians 15:


In 1 Thessalonians Paul is referring to Jesus returning for his bride. Jesus said, in John 14 (WEB):


This is what Paul is supplying more detail about - Jesus' return for the Church.

In the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 passages, Jesus was referring to the end of the Gospel age, and about his return to the earth after the Great Tribulation (the outpouring of God's wrath). There is no reference to raising dead people to life (the dead don't have to live through the Great Tribulation). He states that he will send angels to gather together those "chosen ones" - those who have come to believe after the rapture has taken place, and have therefore missed out on God's call to become His adopted sons. There is an acceptable time for sacrifice, and there is a deadline! 2 Corinthians 6 (WEB):


These "chosen ones" are the "tribulation saints" mentioned in Revelation 7 (WEB):


They will be changed to have a spirit being nature (but not the immortal divine nature) and will be servants (not sons), serving God in his temple (the Church is His temple, Ephesians 2:20-22).

We who remain still alive on earth waiting for Christ's return shall not PRECEDE the saints that have already died in Christ. That means THEY ARE ALREADY THERE IN HEAVEN WITH JESUS.

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No, it means that the dead saints will be resurrected before the alive saints are raptured and changed.

Is that not what Paul meant in 2 Corinthians 5 when he said to be absent from the body is to present with The LORD?

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No. Paul means that if we are in our human bodies, while we are still alive, then we are absent from Jesus and not in our new home with Jesus, which will be the case in the future, after our resurrection/rapture, when we will be in our new spiritual body - "it is raised a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15:44). The dead in Christ are not resurrected to life until Jesus returns for them; they will not be alive in heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:

And the Mark 13:27 verse is about those still alive on earth that are caught up by Jesus.

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It mentions nothing about being caught up by Jesus. It says Jesus sends out angels to gather the "chosen ones" (or "elect") together. You're taking two separate pasages, which deal with separate events, and are combining them together, leading to an incorrect conclusion. Jesus words in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 should be linked with Revelation 7, and not with 1 Thessalonians 4.

Thus like I said, those Olivet discourse verses of Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 are the SAME teaching that Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering to Christ Jesus.

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We obviously have different interpretations about that!