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Ferris Bueller

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I believe exactly what he says there. DEAD branches are cut off and burned. DEAD branches have no fruit on them. DEAD branches do not have the life giving sap of the trunk in them. That's why they are cast off from the tree and burned.
1. He doesn't say that in John 15:2 & John 15:6. Or anywhere else in the Bible for that matter.
2. Jesus cannot have anything DEAD inside Him. He's the Tree of Life for cryin' out loud.
They aren't in Christ himself, they're in his earthly kingdom. Using a similar analogy, Jesus says this:

"38The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.40As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. 42And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:

See it? He's talking about falseness in his kingdom here in this world. And at the end of the age they are burned off, purged by fire. Were they ever in Christ? What does it matter? They're going to the fiery place either way (no unbelieving 'son of evil' is going to inherit the kingdom of heaven'). So I say let's just focus on what the Bible actually makes clear: Believe, and keep believing, as evidenced by works of obedience summed up in "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18).
 
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Ferris Bueller

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There's just no arguing with somebody who has been brainwashed to believe that Christians have attained spiritual perfection from the moment they are saved.

There's just no getting through to you.

That is not even close to what the Bible teaches
(emboldened emphasis in your quote mine)
That teaching comes from Hebrews 10. The author states how the Levitical system of sacrifice made nothing perfect:

1 It (the law) can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
11 ...sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Hebrews 10:1-11

Only through the ministry of Christ and his one-time for all-time sacrifice is the worshiper completely cleansed, removing his sin guilt and making him perfect, legally speaking, before God:

12 But when this Priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God.
14 because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified.
Hebrews 10:12-14
The result of which is the sin of the believing saint does not remain to testify against him and so is remembered no more by God, requiring no further sacrifice:

17Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”c18And where these have been forgiven, an offering for sin is no longer needed." Hebrews 10:17-18

Since the worshiper is continually believing in Christ, the one-time sacrifice of Jesus that does not need to be sacrificed over and over that he believes and trusts in remains, continually interceding for him, forgiving his sin as it occurs, thereby maintaining his perfect legal status before God.
 
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GEN2REV

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They aren't in Christ himself, they're in his earthly kingdom. Using a similar analogy, Jesus says this:

"38The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.40As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. 42And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:

See it? He's talking about falseness in his kingdom here in this world. And at the end of the age they are burned off, purged by fire. Were they ever in Christ? What does it matter? They're going to the fiery place either way (no unbelieving 'son of evil' is going to inherit the kingdom of heaven'). So I say let's just focus on what the Bible actually makes clear: Believe, and keep believing, as evidenced by works of obedience summed up in "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18).
No, I'm sorry.

There are no weeds/tares IN Christ, nor IN His Kingdom.
 

GEN2REV

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(emboldened emphasis in your quote mine)
That teaching comes from Hebrews 10. The author states how the Levitical system of sacrifice made nothing perfect:

1 It (the law) can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
11 ...sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Hebrews 10:1-11

Only through the ministry of Christ and his one-time for all-time sacrifice is the worshiper completely cleansed, removing his sin guilt and making him perfect, legally speaking, before God:

12 But when this Priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God.
14 because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified.
Hebrews 10:12-14
The result of which is the sin of the believing saint does not remain to testify against him and so is remembered no more by God:

17Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”c18And where these have been forgiven, an offering for sin is no longer needed." Hebrews 10:17-18

Since the worshiper is continually believing in Christ, the one-time sacrifice of Jesus that does not need to be sacrificed over and over that he believes and trusts in remains, continually interceding for him, forgiving his sin as it occurs, thereby maintaining his perfect legal status before God.
No, I'm sorry.

That would imply that Christians have already received their incorruptible Glorious Bodies that are not capable of sin.
 

Berserk

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Prolific author, Michael Schermer, is perhaps the most notorious and popular atheistic defender of skepticism in America. So I was shocked to hear his testimony on Coast-to-Coast this past week. As a young man, he was converted and became a devout evangelical who offended friends and family members by witnessing to Christ's transforming grace and power. He strongly believed in witnessing door-to-door. He wanted to get a doctorate in Scripture so he could become an even more articulate defender of the evangelical faith. But that meant he had to learn Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic and he found language study too difficult and tedious. So he got his degree in psychology instead and became a devotee of the scientific method. This conversion convinced him of the groundlessness of the evangelical biblical faith and he has become one of the foremost champions of skepticism ever since. He is the victim of his intellectual honesty and, I think, of his flawed thinking about spirituality. But it certainly sounds like the Holy Spirit once did a transforming work on his heart. Do any of you think he still might be saved through that early work of the Holy Spirit?
 

GEN2REV

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"they will weed out of His kingdom" Matthew 13:41
I love how you put quotes around your version of it, as if it even came close to what the verse says.

Taking those who sin out of God's Kingdom doesn't have to mean taking weeds/tares out of His Kingdom.

As I said, no weed/tare will ever be IN Him or His Kingdom. It's not spiritually possible.

What you are inadvertently proving is that Christians can sin; and that those who do will be removed just exactly as John 15:2 & John 15:6 says they will be.

And Matthew 7:23 gives us the final outcome of those who are removed.
 

Grailhunter

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Plenty examples of people being baptized by and in the Spirit before they even take a dip in the ocean.

Act_18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

Act_19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Act_19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Rom_6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Eph_4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Col_2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1Pe_3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

In these verses, water, or Spirit baptism?
J.

LOL Not entirely apples and oranges.
John's baptism was for the remission of sins....which means it forgave sins. The scriptures documents the controversy over that.

Christian baptism is both physical and spiritual....The physical symbolism of washing away of sins but the actual spiritual effect is different than John's baptism. The person that goes down is baptized in the name of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That person goes under and dies in Christ....sins annihilated as in as far as God is concerned they never happen. The person comes up a new person...with a clean slate....no sin. From there his or her journey with Christ begins.....They then receive the Holy Spirit, when does that happen? Is it a single event? A relationship that progresses? I think it is different with different people. I have seen that event happen rather dramatically, but I still think it progresses as a relationship.
 
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GEN2REV

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No, it does not, lol. It's a legal declaration of right standing with God, not a literal one.
You can laugh your way straight to the smoking gates.

What your post in question is STILL trying to claim is that belief is all that is necessary to be right with God and be accepted into heaven no matter what.

The Bible repeatedly presents verses that contradict that and you have been reminded that the demons believe with more certainty than any man and they will not be declared legally perfect nor in right standing with God.

As usual, you are preaching heresy and adamantly insisting on absolute lies and falsehood that isn't even difficult to disprove with Scripture.
 

Johann

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LOL Not entirely apples and oranges.
John's baptism was for the remission of sins....which means it forgave sins. The scriptures documents the controversy over that.
You know, the rabbins have a saying,:There's a time to LOL and that is not the time to LOL.
I concur with them
J.
 

Ferris Bueller

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What you are inadvertently proving is that Christians can sin; and that those who do will be removed just exactly as John 15:2 & John 15:6 says they will be.
Christians who go back to living in a lifestyle of sin are in unbelief. And because they are in unbelief they do not belong to Christ. Only believing people (present tense) are saved. Did they stop belonging to Christ, or did they never belong to Christ to begin with? Who cares? They're going to the fiery place either way. The church sure likes to major in minors. The scriptures are very clear that the person who lives in sin is not saved. So, instead of exhorting one another to continue in our faith in Christ and not go back to our old lives we argue about whether or not the person who does go back was ever really save or not. How foolish and misguided.
 

Ferris Bueller

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I love how you put quotes around your version of it, as if it even came close to what the verse says.

Taking those who sin out of God's Kingdom doesn't have to mean taking weeds/tares out of His Kingdom.
Only unbelievers will be cast out of this earthly kingdom of God at the resurrection. Their lives of sin, not their struggles of growing up into Christ, are the evidence that they are unbelievers. No struggling believer will be excluded from entering into the purified kingdom when Christ returns. Only unbelievers will be purged away.
 

Ferris Bueller

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As I said, no weed/tare will ever be IN Him or His Kingdom. It's not spiritually possible.
Right, not spiritually. They reside alongside us in this earthly kingdom of God's people. And it is only in that sense that they are in his kingdom. They will be burned away in the judgment when Christ returns and the purified kingdom of God's people will enter into the eternal inheritance.
 

Ferris Bueller

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You can laugh your way straight to the smoking gates.
I'm a believing person. And I plan on continuing to believe to the very end. I'm not going any where near the smoking gates. I don't know why you'd even say such a stupid thing. We have not talked anything about my condition.
 

Ferris Bueller

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What your post in question is STILL trying to claim is that belief is all that is necessary to be right with God and be accepted into heaven no matter what.
That's how Abraham, our example of justification, was made right with God. Justification (being made righteous) is entirely on the basis of believing and trusting in God's promise of a Son who will inherit the blessing on our behalf.

Now, the matter of "being accepted into heaven" at the resurrection will involve Jesus opening the books and examining your works for evidence of faith in and love for him. And so in that way, AND THAT WAY ONLY, will works be needed to be saved from God's wrath. Of course, most Christians are only capable of hearing that as a works gospel, lol. But it's not. Works are only required to be saved when Jesus comes back to show that you are a true believer, not to earn salvation. Fake believers don't have works because they don't have faith in God. And so on that basis they will go to the left and into the fire when Jesus comes back. While the believers who do have works, because they have faith, will go to the right and into the kingdom.
 

Ferris Bueller

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The Bible repeatedly presents verses that contradict that and you have been reminded that the demons believe with more certainty than any man and they will not be declared legally perfect nor in right standing with God.
Demons do not have the hope of God's promise of a Son inheriting the blessing on their behalf in their hearts. They do not believe in the promise of God. They just know it's true. They have intellectual faith. The faith that does not work. The faith that can not save. They in no way shape or form represent believing Christians who don't have works and the fiery fate of those who have no works. Saved, believing Christians have that which accompanies salvation - works. Specifically, works of love for Christ and the church (Hebrews 6:9).
 

GEN2REV

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Only unbelievers will be cast out of this earthly kingdom of God at the resurrection. Their lives of sin, not their struggles of growing up into Christ, are the evidence that they are unbelievers. No struggling believer will be excluded from entering into the purified kingdom when Christ returns. Only unbelievers will be purged away.
No unbelievers are IN the kingdom. Just as Revelation 22:15 says.
 

GEN2REV

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Right, not spiritually. They reside alongside us in this earthly kingdom of God's people. And it is only in that sense that they are in his kingdom. They will be burned away in the judgment when Christ returns and the purified kingdom of God's people will enter into the eternal inheritance.
This physical world is NOT His Kingdom, Ferret.

The Kingdom is spiritual; it is inside True Believers.
Luke 17:21

No unbelievers have it and none of them are IN it.
 
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