God covers us with His righteousness:

Prentis said:

No, what I am saying is that we must clothe ourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, put on the armor of light, and overcome... By his power.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 10:37
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Can a man hate his brother and yet love God? Can two walk together unless they agree? Christ has become the source of salvation to all who obey.

Was it a dead work when Abraham put his son on the altar out of faith? Is it a dead work if a man crucify the flesh out of faith?

We are brought INTO the new covenant apart from works, but we are called for good works, and to become obedient. We are given new life if we repent and believe, apart from works, but unless we put this talent to produce more, we will be cast out. The branch that does not bear fruit is cut off.



Too often, we ask those questions because we desire to be able to judge and say 'he's saved, he's not, he's this, he's that'. It would be wiser to leave the judgment up to God.

I do not know how God judges this, or what he will decide to do, but I know he is just and loving. What we know is that he has mercy on the weak, and elevates the humble... How he will judge? That is up to him! We should not even judge our own selves, how much less all those around us.

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Obviously then there is an error in your paradigm.

Works is to do a checklist, and say 'Done!' Men do this with works, saying, 'I have done this, and I have done that', but people also do the same with belief, 'I have believed, I have had faith'. The mistake is the same.

We do nothing? We do not obey?

[sup]12[/sup] Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. [sup]13[/sup] I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, [sup]14[/sup] that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing,

We are not to wonder whether we have done enough, that would be outside of faith! As Paul says, I do not even judge myself, meaning neither condemned nor justified. Anytime we take up judgment and declare ourselves 'eternally saved', we take God's place as judge, and judge before the time.

jiggyfly said:

Obviously then there is an error in your paradigm.

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Since you are so wise, tell me what it is, that I might learn.

Prentis said:

Since you are so wise, tell me what it is, that I might learn.

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Is that a sincere request?

Prentis said:

To work for salvation means to try and be saved by works. It does not mean we do not do works.

Otherwise Paul contradicts himself when he tells us we were called for good works. We draw near to God by faith, by this we are safe. But to be near to him requires obedience.

1 Corinthians 4:2
Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful.

Hebrews 5:9
And (Jesus) having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

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That is right Prentis. "To work for salvation means to try and be saved by works. It does not mean we do not do works."

Any person that does not think salvation is progressive evidently won't be getting that new robe that we are told we get when we have conquered:
Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."


Any person that does not think salvation is progressive is evidently not running the same race as Paul:
1 Corinthians 9:24 "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."


Any person that does not think salvation is progressive evidently does not have the same attitude as Paul:
Philippians 3:12 "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."


But have ever noticed how no matter how much good clear sound reasoning you do and/or no matter how many clear and reliable scriptures you lay before most people they just will not see that salvation is progressive?


I am not able to get out as much as I used to be, but I copied the example of groups that sent out door to door preachers and for many years I went out into different cities walking house to house and talking with people. I talked to preachers and priests just as I talked to the general home dwellers. And I could not help but notice and learn many things about them all. Of the preachers and the Priests, though it was rare to find two that agreed on anything (even when they both preached under one roof), they all held fast each one to his own belief.

As to the people in general, I got until I could talk to them for just a short spell, and without them ever telling me exactly which church they they attended, I could tell them accurately what church it was they went to regularly because of knowing the personalities and ideas of the cities preachers and priests.

Jesus was exactly right when he said, "... The servant is not greater than his lord.... " (John 15:20)



Still, the door to door work or any way of getting into direct conversation with people is my favorite way to speak the Word of God with people. It is highly rewarding. Challenging, but highly rewarding.

I logged many years and thousands of hour doing that and I sorely miss it now that am limited to so few opportunities to do it.


One thing I like better about it as compared to this mode of communicating is that I found it was frequent that people get anxious whenever anyone does not agree with their point of view. And out of their anxiousness many begin to get angry.

But when you are face to face with them it is easier to gain the conversation back because they cannot falsely accuse you of having an offensive demeanor when they can look at you see that you are very calm and collected and they can hear the sound of your voice and detect nothing in it but love.


In this here mode of communicating our imaginations have complete freedom to run away with us whether it be true or not of the one we are responding back and forth with.

I suppose that there is a certain benefit there we can exploit if we would, though. It makes us think more about how we word ourselves on paper. Yet it still denies us being able to say certain things that would have been no problem face to face.

jiggyfly said:

Is that a sincere request?

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It is. If I am wrong, I need to see it, otherwise, how will I understand?

If it sounds sarcastic and unloving, forgive me, that is not my intent.

If by wisdom I can be shown my mistake, then I can learn, but if all I am told is that 'I'm wrong', how will I learn? Fair request?

Vengle, I agree with you, it is easier face to face. Even in our disagreements, we can show love by our ways of saying things and how we approach it. But like you say, we can learn much here!

RichardBurger, what God has done is enough... To get us in the race. And his power is enough... To make us able to run it well. But we still have to do the running. Thus it is all by his grace (power), and our faith (pistis, fidelity, faithfulness, and faith). We are saved by the power of God (grace) through faith. We must exercise this faith, and trust that God grants the power, which he does. It is by faith, as Paul says, that we have access to this grace, the power of God which travails in us, as it did in Paul, to will and to do that which pleases God.

RichardBurger said:

I have asked before and got no answer. Tell us what is it that we must do to secure our salvation. What works are required?

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Faith and obedience. We repent, believe, and then we must walk with him. Very simple!

Being his righteousness comes by proximity to Christ. In other words, it is by really being with Christ that we become his righteousness, because then we do his works, and he does his works through us (both). We must draw near by faith, and he will draw near also.

God is not trying to make a scheme so he can get around some law that is above him! Rather he is above all things, but desires that men whould come into fellowship with him, and unity with him. This is what he opens the door for in son, Jesus Christ.

Then we must enter by faith!

No, it is not something that we earn, Richard.

But true faith will bring us to it. If we have the faith that moves us into his fellowship, all of a sudden we see as Jesus, we are close to him, and we are there. If we preach a powerless faith, we have a powerless gospel. But when we have true faith, God brings us there.

It is nothing of ourself, the power is his, the life is his. But God will not force us, if we draw near, there he is. True faith gives us unity with him, and gives us to walk with him. What we testify of is not what we believe, but what we have handled, what we have seen with our eyes.

You are correct when you say that man has fellowship with God when he has faith with him, but true faith brings true fellowship, while imaginary faith brings imaginary fellowship, this is where the issue lies. True fellowship changes us.

Prentis said:

It is true of all those who are faithful. The finished work of Christ is only the beginning of ours. HIS finished work is our reconciliation, our work is to 'Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.'
We are the one fighting and laying hold on eternal life, which he made available by his finished work, and to which he called us.

Colossians 1:24
[ Sacrificial Service for Christ ] I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

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OK Prtentise, describe what "fighting the good fight of faith" and " a walk with Christ" looks like and is it expected of all or just some?

jiggyfly said:

OK Prtentise, describe what "fighting the good fight of faith" and " a walk with Christ" looks like and is it expected of all or just some?

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All who are called according to his purpose are called to run the race. We have different roles, some are the feet, some the hands, some the eyes... We have different gifts of the Spirit and operate in a different role... But we all called to operate in the same power, the power of the age to come.

To fight the good fight of faith, to run the race, is very broad. It comes down to growing from faith to faith and presenting ourselves as servants to righteousness.

[sup]1[/sup] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. [sup]2[/sup] And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

What does that really mean,"God covers us with his righteousness"?

Does it mean that he has said to us, "Here, you are now righteous because I have this moment made you to be so"?

Or, does it mean that he has in effect said to us, "Cooperate with me while I cover you with my righteousness"?

Is covering a singular act completed as with a sudden poof and it is done?

Or, is covering a process which we must submit to and are protected by so long as we continue submitted to it?

Isaiah 1:16 "Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Do we see that our sins being made white as snow is dependent upon our submitting to that washing in the water of the word?

Do we see that our sins being made white as snow is dependent upon our putting away evil?

Do we see that our sins being made white as snow is dependent upon our reasoning together with God?

That is a clear process.

[Douay-Rheims]
Isaiah 1:16 "Wash yourselves, be clean, take away the evil of your devices from my eyes: cease to do perversely,
17 Learn to do well: seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge for the fatherless, defend the widow.
18 And then come, and accuse me, saith the Lord: if your sins be as scarlet, they shall be made as white as snow: and if they be red as crimson, they shall be white as wool."

Revelation 7:14 "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

It seems many want to just dip their robes in the blood of the Lamb and then do the victory dance without going as far as actually washing their robes in the Lamb's blood.

RichardBurger said:

You asked ""Here, you are now righteous because I have this moment made you to be so"".

Yes, it means just that,

1 Corinthians 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

Ephesians 1:10-14
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth — in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
NKJV

Colossians 3:1-4
If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
NKJV

1 Peter 2:23-24
23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously;
24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness — by whose stripes you were healed.
NKJV

But the religious can not see the word ""were"". They can't see that it HAS been done by God.

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But you must take into consideration that those scriptures are speaking to mature Christians that have done so.


They are the examples that babes in Christ need to closely consider. It is irresponsible to give babes in Christ the impression that this is already fulfilled in them.

Prentis said:

All who are called according to his purpose are called to run the race. We have different roles, some are the feet, some the hands, some the eyes... We have different gifts of the Spirit and operate in a different role... But we all called to operate in the same power, the power of the age to come.

To fight the good fight of faith, to run the race, is very broad. It comes down to growing from faith to faith and presenting ourselves as servants to righteousness.

[sup]1[/sup] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. [sup]2[/sup] And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

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So do you believe that everyone is called? Are some of the "called" small children and those with mental disabilities?

Vengle said:

But you must take into consideration that those scriptures are speaking to mature Christians that have done so.


They are the examples that babes in Christ need to closely consider. It is irresponsible to give babes in Christ the impression that this is already fulfilled in them.

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The Corinthians were spiritually mature?????

jiggyfly said:

So do you believe that everyone is called? Are some of the "called" small children and those with mental disabilities?

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Are we about to get into a discussion of those foreordained to destruction?

The sons of destruction (perdition)?


How would we harmonize John 3:16 with the idea that some are not called?

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."


But then we must also ask, "Why does it say "many are called" instead of saying "all are called"?

And we must all ask how could it be true then that God locked "all" up under sin that he might have mercy on all?

Having studied deeply the original language wording of Romans 11:32 I know that it does say that God locked up all that he might have mercy on all. I know that it is saying exactly what Paul said at Galatians 3: 22.

Vengle said:

Are we about to get into a discussion of those foreordained to destruction?

The sons of destruction (perdition)?


How would we harmonize John 3:16 with the idea that some are not called?

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."


But then we must also ask, "Why does it say "many are called" instead of saying "all are called"?

And we must all ask how could it be true then that God locked "all" up under sin that he might have mercy on all?

Having studied deeply the original language wording of Romans 11:32 I know that it does say that God locked up all that he might have mercy on all. I know that it is saying exactly what Paul said at Galatians 3: 22.

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No actually those questions were addressed to Prentise at his request.
My question to you is were the Corinthians spiritually mature?

jiggyfly said:

So do you believe that everyone is called? Are some of the "called" small children and those with mental disabilities?

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Not all are called to holiness no. Since you ask, I will lay it out, a simple 'yes and no' answer would not suffice.

As per the book of revelations, there are two books, and two ressurections, and two judgements. The first ressurection is that of those in Christ, and there the Lamb's book of life is opened. This is the judgment of the house of God. Some here go to glory, and some to shame. Some to honor, some to dishonor.

The second ressurection is that of the nations, as it says in revelation, and there the book of life is opened (not the LAMB's book of life). As Jesus tells us of this judgment, some go to eternal life (not glory) and some taste the second death (not shame).

So as to this there are four destinies. God is no respecter of persons, and I believe whoever seeks him with all their heart will find him. Also, if a man does what is right, though he knows not God, as the sheep in the parable of that judgment, he goes to life. On the other hand, God also calls people, he goes to seek them. He gives them more, but then they are responsible for more. This is also why there is such a great 'armianism vs. calvinism' debate. Both are true; if we seek God we find him, and he will come seeking after us. Both ways, what we do with what is given us matters.

God can call anyone, a mentally disabled person, a child... The weak things of this world can be his choice vessels. As Paul says, who are we to argue with what he decides to do with us? But in the face of that, we are responsible for what we do.