Timing of the abomination of desolation

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Randy Kluth

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Galatians 3:26-28KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

As I've told others, saying "there is neither Jew nor Greek" cannot be properly understood if not in its context. Paul is *not* saying there is no such thing as a Jew or Greek. Obviously, he referenced them many times with the implication he expected others to know what he was talking about.

Rather, Paul was saying "there is neither Jew nor Greek" with respect to Salvation in Christ. In the OT you had to be a Hebrew, or a Jew, to be in covenant with God under the Law. So Paul was now saying that this "New Covenant" did not require one to be Jewish to be in covenant with God. There is no value in being either Jew or Greek with respect to qualifying to enter into covenant with Christ.

It is not saying we have no ethnicity, nor is it saying it isn't important with regard to God's promise to Abraham to give birth to "many nations." Clearly, if there are going to many nations, there has to be the distinction of nationhood in order to distinguish them as such!

But Abraham's inheritance, consisting of many nations, had to drop the exclusivity of being Jewish under the Old Covenant of Law. And so, Paul is arguing that "there is neither Jew nor Greek" with respect to this New Covenant. It does not erase our ethnicity nor does it necessarily remove our nationhood. But in Christ we have equal access. That's all Paul was saying.
 
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Randy Kluth

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But we know that only faith and obedience, not association, are the criteria by which God identifies His Chosen People.

Some "associates" will come to God in faith and obedience.

Most will not.

Not true. God requires that His word be fulfilled. Part of that word is His promise to include people from many nations. So they must be associated with the nations He chooses, and they must have faith, as well.

This is sort of like saying one must be human to qualify as a child of God. To be human does not automatically make one God's child. But you can't be God's child unless you also qualify as a human being. ;)

So yes, there must be people of faith from Israel, and from many other nations, to qualify. But to belong to a nation is not enough. I'm not even sure that one has to belong to a nation to qualify--likely not! ;)

The point is, it isn't enough just to gather believers from many non-national groups. There must also be people of faith collected from many nations, including Israel, as well.

I will go one step farther. God isn't here just selecting people to be saved, but also people to comprise a variety of nations who will covenant with Him to serve Him. So God has promised nations of faith, as well, even though not everybody in the national community will choose to have faith.

God never expected perfect nations, but He did promise there would be nations that as a group selected faith as their religion. And from these nations of faith many of His people would be selected for eternal life.
 

covenantee

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Not true. God requires that His word be fulfilled. Part of that word is His promise to include people from many nations. So they must be associated with the nations He chooses, and they must have faith, as well.

Not true. Faith and obedience fulfill God's requirements completely. (Hebrews 11:6; Hebrews 5:9; 2 Corinthians 10:5; Romans 1:5). Romans 1:5 declares that faith and obedience are the goal in all nations. There is no Scripture claiming that any of God's Children are associated with any particular nation other than the holy nation of His Church. (1 Peter 2:9)

So God has promised nations of faith

Where? What nations? What faith? Scripture?

He did promise there would be nations that as a group selected faith as their religion

Where? What nations? What faith? What religion? Scripture?
 
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Keraz

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Where? What nations? What faith? What religion? Scripture?
The New Nation of Beulah:

Isaiah 62:1-2a For Zion’s sake, I shall not keep silent – until her victory shines forth, like the sunrise, her victory like a blazing torch. The nations will see your victory and their rulers your glory.
Isaiah prophesies for the sake of Zion; the holy Land. There will be a great victory, ‘like a blazing torch’ - a CME sunstrike over the attacking enemies. Isaiah 30:25-30 & 66:15-16, Psalms 11:4-6 The world will see it and be amazed. Jeremiah 33:6-16

Isaiah 62:2b-5 You will receive a new name, the Lord Himself will give it. You will be like a glorious crown in His hand. No more are you forsaken and your Land desolate. You will be called ‘Hephzibah’ and the Land, ‘Beulah’. For the Lord will delight in you and it will be like a marriage: He will rejoice over you as a bridegroom over his bride. ‘Hephzibah’ = My delight is in her. ‘Beulah’ = married. Isaiah 49:18

The Lord’s people, all the Christian Israelites of God, will be gathered and settled into their heritage, all of the holy Land, in the new nation of Beulah. Wonderful promises to them of fertility and wealth. They will live in justice, peace and security, as He intended people to be.


Isaiah 62:6-7 Jerusalem, on your walls, I have posted watchmen, they will call out: You that invoke the Name of the Lord, do not rest and give no rest to the Lord until He makes Jerusalem a praise throughout the world.
The Hebrew word for ‘watchmen’, is ‘natzar’, the root word for Nazarene; literally all Christian believers. WE must not rest or let the Lord forget His people and His Land. Keep praying for our redemption and restoration. Ezekiel 36:24-28, Isaiah 52:7-9

Isaiah 62:8-9 The Lord has sworn to never again allow foreigners to take the produce of the Land, but you who give praises to Him will eat the grain and drink the wine, within My sacred courts.
After the great clearance in the Middle East, only His righteous people will be allowed to live there, those who love the Lord and obey Him. Isaiah 66:20-21, Ezekiel 20:38

Isaiah 62:10-11 Pass through the gates – clear a road for My people. Build a highway, remove the rocks and make a signal to guide the people. Proclaim to the ends of the earth, say to the offspring of Zion: See your deliverance comes, His reward is with Him and He will make recompense.
The great gathering of the Lord’s people – the second Exodus, will happen in the same manner as the first Exodus. Leaders [shepherds] will arise to guide the flock, in the spirit of Moses and Elijah. Jeremiah 3:14-15, Isaiah 58:11, Isaiah 43:5-7, Micah 4:6, Isaiah 49:9-13, Isaiah 51:3, Zechariah 8:11-12, Isaiah 40:1-5, Ezekiel 11:17

Isaiah 62:12 They will be called ‘The Holy people, the Redeemed of God’ and Jerusalem will be called ‘sought after, the City no longer forsaken’.

The Lord’s faithful Christian people: living in the Holy Land of Beulah, as He created them to live, being a ‘light to the nations’ and witnesses to His salvation. They will be divided into 12 groups, named after the original sons of Jacob. Jesus will appear to them, 1 Thess 1:10, Revelation 14:1-5 and 12,000 missionaries will be selected from them, Revelation 7:1-14, to go to every people group on earth, to preach the good news of the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19, 1 Peter 2:9-10, Acts 2:39, Jeremiah 31:23-34

Joel 2:23-27 People of Zion, rejoice – your God will recompense you for the years that others have ravaged your Land. You will again have plenty in your own Land. Then you will know that I am present in Israel and that I and no other am your God. We will know the Lord is present by His deeds. Just as it was at the Exodus. Must be before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.
 

Randy Kluth

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Not true. Faith and obedience fulfill God's requirements completely. (Hebrews 11:6; Hebrews 5:9; 2 Corinthians 10:5; Romans 1:5). Romans 1:5 declares that faith and obedience are the goal in all nations. There is no Scripture claiming that any of God's Children are associated with any particular nation other than the holy nation of His Church. (1 Peter 2:9)

If that's how you interpret 1 Pet 2.9, perhaps you're right. However, that interpretation of 1 Pet 2.9 seems to conflict with God's earlier promise to create an international heritage for Abraham. Gen 12 and 17.

That requires nations not specified except for Israel, but a multitude of distinct nations nonetheless. How do you deal with this?

Gen 12.2 “I will make you into a great nation." (Israel)
Gen 17.4 You will be the father of many nations. (Gentile nations)

Matt 21.43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit." (the Roman Empire)


Do you define "nations" as an apolitical entity that simply has an international origin? I understand that Covenant Theology sees it that way.

But I define "nations" quite literally. And so, my view requires both nationhood and faith--specifically nationhood of many different ethnicities. Nationhood is a necessary attribute, but faith is a moral qualification.
 

Keraz

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But I define "nations" quite literally. And so, my view requires both nationhood and faith--specifically nationhood of many different ethnicities.
As you correctly say: Nations are made up from virtually the whole range of ethnicities.
In Israel, there can be seen classic hook nosed Jews, slavic Russians, black Ethiopians, peoples of virtually every type.

Your insistence of a redemption for the current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel is a joke.
OK, I do realize that you don't think all of them will be saved, but we know from many prophesies that only a remnant will be. Romans 9:27

God will save and protect His faithful Christian peoples, they come from every tribe, race, nation and language. John sees them in the holy Land; Revelation 7:9
 

covenantee

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Gen 12.2 “I will make you into a great nation." (Israel)
Gen 17.4 You will be the father of many nations. (Gentile nations)

True.

Matt 21.43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit." (the Roman Empire)

No.

Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The Church)

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;


The Church is the only Nation that produces the fruit(s) of the Kingdom of God.


Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Ephesians 5:9
For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth.

Philippians 1:11
Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
 
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Randy Kluth

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As you correctly say: Nations are made up from virtually the whole range of ethnicities.
In Israel, there can be seen classic hook nosed Jews, slavic Russians, black Ethiopians, peoples of virtually every type.

Your insistence of a redemption for the current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel is a joke.
OK, I do realize that you don't think all of them will be saved, but we know from many prophesies that only a remnant will be. Romans 9:27

God will save and protect His faithful Christian peoples, they come from every tribe, race, nation and language. John sees them in the holy Land; Revelation 7:9

Yes, I see only a remnant of Israel being saved. What you think is a "joke," however, has been a reality throughout NT history. Entire nations have converted to embrace the Christian faith for their country's religion. It's something every one of us should pray for!
 

Randy Kluth

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No.

Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The Church)

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;


The Church is the only Nation that produces the fruit(s) of the Kingdom of God.

The Church is not a "nation." It is an entity consisting of people from every nation. And it has included entire nations, as well. Not all in this international Church will endure in their faith. And not all of them are genuine Christians. But in this age, God is interested in both the individual converting to Christ and in the nation converting to Christianity. God loves both regeneration and social justice.
 

covenantee

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Randy Kluth

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Scripture identifies and describes it as a nation.
True. And Scripture identifies and describes said entity as a nation.

This may be somewhat controversial, because the reading can be taken in different ways. My take is that it would be contradictory to declare that a multitude consisting of many nations is actually "one nation." The passage in 1 Peter declaring "you are a holy nation" reads as follows and originates form Exodus 19.

1 Peter 2.9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
Exodus 19.5 'Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.


It is plainly and obviously stated that this message was given "to the Israelites," meaning Natural Israel--not the international Church. That Peter applies it to the Jewish believers of his own time indicates a continuity between Israel's original calling and the continuation of that calling in Jewish believers. And by way of principle, this could apply to any Gentile nation that converts, as a nation, to Christianity, as well.

However, at the time, there had not yet come to be any Gentile Christian nations. This followed the Christianization of the Roman Empire.

There has never been an entire geopolitical nation of complete 100% entirely genuine Christians.

I agree. But the OT principle of an entire nation devoting itself to the one true God is the backdrop here--not 100% fidelity to the purpose. When a nation devotes itself to a single God and a single religion, the entire nation becomes holy. That is a clear principle set forth under the Law of Moses. And Jesus confirmed it. When something is devoted to God, everything about it becomes holy.

Lev 27.28 But nothing that a person owns and devotes to the Lord—whether a human being or an animal or family land—may be sold or redeemed; everything so devoted is most holy to the Lord.
 

covenantee

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It is plainly and obviously stated that this message was given "to the Israelites," meaning Natural Israel--not the international Church. That Peter applies it to the Jewish believers of his own time indicates a continuity between Israel's original calling and the continuation of that calling in Jewish believers. And by way of principle, this could apply to any Gentile nation that converts, as a nation, to Christianity, as well.

Israel from its birth and throughout its history was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. This was thus true of the diaspora as well, comprised of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. The continuation to which you refer was through Christians irrespective of whether they were Jews or Gentiles. As ever, faith and obedience were and are the only determinants.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.


There has never been a Gentile nation that converted to true Christianity. Papal Rome, which followed imperial Rome, was the beginning of apostate Christianity. But God still always did preserve His "7,000" over the centuries, culminating in the Reformation which He inspired and empowered.

I agree. But the OT principle of an entire nation devoting itself to the one true God is the backdrop here--not 100% fidelity to the purpose. When a nation devotes itself to a single God and a single religion, the entire nation becomes holy. That is a clear principle set forth under the Law of Moses. And Jesus confirmed it. When something is devoted to God, everything about it becomes holy.

A nation which was exiled three times, whose capital Jerusalem was destroyed twice, of which God slew thousands over the course of its history because of unfaithfulness and disobedience, and which at one point was down to 7,000 out of millions who had not "bowed to Baal";
does not qualify as a holy nation.

Only the faithful obedient Israel within the nation, who had not "bowed to Baal", qualified as the holy nation.

As the true Christian Church of today qualifies as that nation.
 
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Keraz

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Who is the nation of Israel to whom God makes a promise in Jeremiah 31? Jesus gives us a very clear indication in the parable of the landowner:

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

We do not have to look too far to discover which nation, people group that is: it is the church, the church of Jesus Christ, made up of believing Jews and Gentiles, who are the seed of Abraham, the children of God, the real Israelites of the New Testament. The Overcomers for God.

I Peter 2:9-10 writes to the church in these words: But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people ... which in times past were not a people, but are now the people of God.

Holy nation is the name given to Israel in Exodus 19:5-6. Peter now applies it to the church! The church is the holy nation, and since the church will never be destroyed, it is in her and not in the modern Jewish State of Israel, that the new Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is to be fulfilled. Titus 2:14 is also instructive: to the churches in Crete Paul attributes the title "peculiar people," a name taken from Exodus 19:5.

One more thing must be noticed in Jeremiah 31:31-34 The promise of the new Covenant is made to the house of Judah and the house of Israel. In this covenant with the house of Israel God will: put His law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts and will be their God and they shall be His people ... Moreover, God promises to the same house of Israel: I will forgive their iniquity and I will remember their sin no more.
How is this new covenant promise fulfilled, and to whom? The answer is found in Hebrews 8:6-13. This Covenant cannot be with the House of Israel as a separate entity from the Christian Church. The church of Christ, which enjoys the knowledge of God and forgiveness of sins, is the House of Israel. The peoples whom Jesus came to save and who accepted the Gospel.
 

Randy Kluth

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Israel from its birth and throughout its history was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles.

Germany too has accepted many refugees and immigrants of various kinds. To accept new citizens into a German country does not make the country any less "German." The gene pool is "German," and minorities mix into that German gene pool.

The same is true of Israel. It was created by producing an Abrahamic gene pool, into which foreigners were allowed to mix in with it, assuming they were willing to embrace the Law of Moses. Mixing in with this gene pool did not make the nation any less "Abrahamic" or "Israeli" or "Jewish."

It is obviously important to God that we raise up families to share in our faith. He therefore rewards faithful parents with children who share in that faith. Does it matter if it is their own children, or can it be somebody else's children? It is important to have your own children--otherwise, what value is there in raising up children in your faith?

So granting a biological hereditary inheritance to Abraham was important to God, to teach Abraham the importance of raising children up in the faith. But neither is it a statement opposing other non-children from entering into that same faith, or even into the same community.

There has never been a Gentile nation that converted to true Christianity. Papal Rome, which followed imperial Rome, was the beginning of apostate Christianity.

I don't agree at all. That is a Separatist position, which is a minority view in historic Christianity. Separatists tended to be commoners who hated any authority over them, including Christian authority. They felt their own authority was better than anybody else's authority.

Read a history of the Church. You will find that those who embraced Christianity within the Roman Empire, or within any kingdom, most often did so with the right motives, and certainly not to establish "apostate Christianity!"

A nation which was exiled three times, whose capital Jerusalem was destroyed twice, of which God slew thousands over the course of its history because of unfaithfulness and disobedience, and which at one point was down to 7,000 out of millions who had not "bowed to Baal";
does not qualify as a holy nation.

Actually it was precisely because they were called to *be* a holy nation that they were judged. When you step up into a higher standard, you will be judged by that standard. Having been called to holiness, and having accepted that call as a nation, Israel then had to live by it, or if not, had to be judged for not living up to it.

Only the faithful obedient Israel within the nation, who had not "bowed to Baal", qualified as the holy nation.

As the true Christian Church of today qualifies as that nation.

No, nations and individuals come and go, rise and fall, fail and succeed. Those who fail can repent and try again. But to judge a nation forever as inept only because at one time they failed, or because the leadership is bad, is a big mistake.

Israel failed throughout their history, but they also succeeded. They succeeded in mostly conquering the Promised Land, and disposing of the wicked there. They reformed under the judges, when they started to fall away. Good kings led them back when bad kings had led them away. And they built the temple and established the priestly rituals, following the rules of the Law as prescribed.

The fact Israel also had a history of repeat failures does not mean they did not have their successes. The whole concept of Grace means that those who fail can try again, can repent and do right. Your sense that repeated failures and constant evidence of sin divest them of their promises is not Scriptural. Yes, they can come under an entire age of judgment. But they are promised restoration, following judgment of the wicked in their midst.
 

Keraz

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Israel failed throughout their history, but they also succeeded. They succeeded in mostly conquering the Promised Land, and disposing of the wicked there.
If you read and knew what Judges 1:1-26 tells us what really happened; the failure of ancient Israel to *dispose of the wicked*, you would see how they never did what Good told them to do.
Only as they accepted the Gospel have they succeeded and we Christian peoples are the Israelites of God.
 
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Randy Kluth

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If you read and knew what Judges 1:1-26 tells us what really happened; the failure of ancient Israel to *dispose of the wicked*, you how they never did what Good told them to do.
Only as they accepted the Gospel have they succeeded and we Christian peoples are the Israelites of God.

You have the typical understanding of so many Christians, which I think is completely ignorant and judgmental. I'm not saying I don't like you, brother. It's just that I've been walking this path a long time, and I've noted that the garden variety Christian acts more like a Separatist than an agreeable, compassionate Christian that we're called to be in the Bible.

Of course Israel was imperfect--we all are! But to say that the story recorded of the nation, through good times and bad, requires that we focus exclusively on the bad and brand them as such is just plain wrong. ...In my opinion, respectfully! ;)

The path that nations take always leads to failure in the present age, because a nation consists of both the strong and the weak, the good and the bad. And over time, the law of averages works against the nation. The lowest common denominator wins out.

None of this means that God can't restore nations that have fallen, which in the past were good, or at least acceptable. If they started good, and if they did good in their history, they likely can be restored with the right fix. God has stated that He delays the "fix" because it is necessary to allow more people and more nations opportunity of their own, before a more comprehensive judgment falls and ends the process.
 

covenantee

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Germany too has accepted many refugees and immigrants of various kinds. To accept new citizens into a German country does not make the country any less "German." The gene pool is "German," and minorities mix into that German gene pool.

The same is true of Israel. It was created by producing an Abrahamic gene pool, into which foreigners were allowed to mix in with it, assuming they were willing to embrace the Law of Moses. Mixing in with this gene pool did not make the nation any less "Abrahamic" or "Israeli" or "Jewish."

After millennia of natural genetic dispersion and diffusion, the gene pool is today completely heterogenized, and more so every day. There is no longer any "German" or "Jewish" or any other homogeneous gene pool. There is only a "Mongrel" gene pool.

I don't agree at all. That is a Separatist position, which is a minority view in historic Christianity. Separatists tended to be commoners who hated any authority over them, including Christian authority. They felt their own authority was better than anybody else's authority.

Read a history of the Church. You will find that those who embraced Christianity within the Roman Empire, or within any kingdom, most often did so with the right motives, and certainly not to establish "apostate Christianity!"

So you don't believe that Romanism resulted in the apostasization of Christianity?

Then why did God raise up the Reformers to reclaim His True Church from spiritual darkness and oppression?

No, nations and individuals come and go, rise and fall, fail and succeed. Those who fail can repent and try again. But to judge a nation forever as inept only because at one time they failed, or because the leadership is bad, is a big mistake.

God gave Israel repeated opportunities, but they refused to repent and reform. Thus:

Matthew 23
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

That was the consummate destruction of the nation of Israel.
 
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Randy Kluth

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After millennia of natural genetic dispersion and diffusion, the gene pool is today completely heterogenized, and more so every day. There is no longer any "German" or "Jewish" or any other homogeneous gene pool. There is only a "Mongrel" gene pool.

I don't agree. As "mongrelized" as ethnicities may be, there are still ethnicities. Among the many African tribes, one can still see the differences from tribe to tribe. One can still see differences among the variety of Caucasians. As close as Russians may be to Ukrainians, they still insist they are separate ethnicities. One can see the difference between a Chinese person and a Japanese person. All down through Central and South America, there are differences in ethnicities, from nation to nation, even though many of them are the product of Indians and Spanish.

To see there are no ethnicities therefore has no meaning to me. And obviously, dictionaries and encyclopedias would differ with you, as well. Do you think that Indians and European-stock in N. America are so "homogenized" that you can't tell the difference between one and the other? Hardly!

So you don't believe that Romanism resulted in the apostasization of Christianity?

It depends on what you mean by "Romanism?" Christianity itself led to the Christianization of Rome. And Roman Christianization led to European Christianization. The fact that the Roman Church arrived at a place where it murdered Protestants does not mean that Roman Christians did not do well in previous times, or even during this downward turn in their leadership.

Then why did God raise up the Reformers to reclaim His True Church from spiritual darkness and oppression?

All organizations and nations ultimately capitulate to the lowest common denominator. Do you think God failed because He initiated the nation of Israel and she ultimately failed as a godly nation?

I don't think so. God can start a good process which men, over time, can undo. That doesn't undo the good that was done, nor does it end the process God intended to lead to.

God gave Israel repeated opportunities, but they refused to repent and reform. Thus:

Matthew 23
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

That was the consummate destruction of the nation of Israel.

Yes, that is the destiny of every godly nation on earth in present history. Nations ultimately collapse until final judgment. Then there is opportunity for restoration.
 

covenantee

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I don't agree. As "mongrolized" as ethnicities may be, there are still ethnicities. Among the many African tribes, one can still see the differences from tribe to tribe. One can still see differences among the variety of Caucasians. As close as Russians may be to Ukrainians, they still insist they are separate ethnicities. One can see the difference between a Chinese person and a Japanese person. All down through Central and South America, there are differences in ethnicities, from nation to nation, even though many of them are the product of Indians and Spanish.

To see there are no ethnicities therefore has no meaning to me. And obviously, dictionaries and encyclopedias would differ with you, as well. Do you think that Indians and European-stock in N. America are so "homogenized" that you can't tell the difference between one and the other? Hardly!

When someone who looks like "A" creates offspring with someone who looks like "B", the offspring may look more like one than the other, but the genes of both are fully present, hence "mongrelization".

It depends on what you mean by "Romanism?" Christianity itself led to the Christianization of Rome. And Roman Christianization led to European Christianization. The fact that the Roman Church arrived at a place where it murdered Protestants does not mean that Roman Christians did not do well in previous times, or even during this downward turn in their leadership.

Certainly they did well in earlier times; the apostasization occurred over centuries. However, without the Reformation, there would have been no reclamation, and this forum and you and I on it would not exist today.

All organizations and nations ultimately capitulate to the lowest common denominator. Do you think God failed because He initiated the nation of Israel because Israel ultimately failed as a godly nation? I don't think so. God can start a good process which men, over time, can undo. That doesn't undo the good that was done, nor does it end the process God intended to lead to.

God would have failed if He had permitted Israel to continue in its apostasy. He demonstrated longsuffering mercy. Ultimately, His justice also had to be satisfied, for He is a God of both mercy and justice.

Yes, that is the destiny of every godly nation on earth in present history. Nations ultimately collapse until final judgment. Then there is opportunity for restoration.

Restoration for Israel, as for everyone, is realized for each individual who receives Christ and becomes a citizen of His holy nation, His Church.
 
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Keraz

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You have the typical understanding of so many Christians, which I think is completely ignorant and judgmental. I'm not saying I don't like you, brother. It's just that I've been walking this path a long time, and I've noted that the garden variety Christian acts more like a Separatist than an agreeable, compassionate Christian that we're called to be in the Bible.

Of course Israel was imperfect--we all are! But to say that the story recorded of the nation, through good times and bad, requires that we focus exclusively on the bad and brand them as such is just plain wrong. ...In my opinion, respectfully! ;)

The path that nations take always leads to failure in the present age, because a nation consists of both the strong and the weak, the good and the bad. And over time, the law of averages works against the nation. The lowest common denominator wins out.

None of this means that God can't restore nations that have fallen, which in the past were good, or at least acceptable. If they started good, and if they did good in their history, they likely can be restored with the right fix. God has stated that He delays the "fix" because it is necessary to allow more people and more nations opportunity of their own, before a more comprehensive judgment falls and ends the process.
Do you admit you were wrong in saying the ancient Israelites obeyed God's Command to remove the ungodly inhabitants of the holy Land?

You are also wrong in your determination for a general Jewish revival and redemption. I can post 20+ prophesies that refute that idea.
You do know, I'm sure that belief is a vital part of the 'rapture to heaven' theory. Is that what you believe? The Christians raptured to heaven, while the Jews pass thru the Great Trib?
People who have fallen for that deception are in for a nasty shock, when what they expect doesn't happen.

Matthew 21:43 makes it clear that the Jewish nation has lost the Kingdom and nowhere is it said they ever get it back.
 
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