The Pre-Trib Rapture

Taken · Jun 23, 2022

Taken asked:
What Is the Church’s purpose to be On Earth during Gods Punishment, Wrath and Tribulations UPON the Earth?

Keraz said:
What believers of the false 'rapture to heaven' theory miss; is how the faithful Christians are kept safe in a earthly location during the 1260 day period of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls - the Great Tribulation. Revelation 12:6 & 14
Some Christians must remain and they will face persecution from the 'dragon'; the Anti-Christ. Revelation 12:17

Many Prophesies say how the Lord will protect His own, none say He will take them to heaven. /QUOTE]

Not one word address the question...

Enoch111 · Jun 23, 2022

Keraz said:
Many Prophesies say how the Lord will protect His own, none say He will take them to heaven.

Actually the Bible says that all the Tribulation saints are beheaded.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)

Now if the whole Church was present on earth during the reign of the Antichrist, the whole Church would be beheaded. But that is not what is shown in Scripture (Rev 3:10).
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Since the whole world will be under the control of the Antichrist and Satan, that will be "the hour of temptation" or "the hour of testing". The test will be whether people take the Mark of the Beast and worship him, or absolutely refuse to do either. And those who refuse to do so will be beheaded. But God tells the church at Philadelphia (and by extension the Church just prior to the reign of the Antichrist) that it will not be subject to this time of testing.

However, there will be Tribulation saints on earth who were converted through the preaching of Moses and Elijah (Rev 11). Those saints will defy the Antichrist and pay the ultimate price. But they will be resurrected to live and reign with Christ along with all the other saints. Moses and Elijah will be killed, resurrected, and raptured to Heaven (Rev 11).

To claim that the Church will not be taken to Heaven is to boldly contradict Christ Himself -- a rather rash and bold move for a mere mortal who has no clue about heavenly things. Since our "citizenship" is in Heaven (Phil 3:20), where else would Christians go? For our conversation [citizenship] is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Taken · Jun 23, 2022

Enoch111 said:
That would not only be contrary to God's plan for the Church, but as a matter of fact it would stop the reign of the Antichrist. The Holy Spirit must be "taken out of the way" in order for Satan to gain total control of the world, which means that the Church (indwelt by the Spirit) also must be taken out of the way. And where else would the Church be other than in Heaven, since the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven requires the presence of the Church, PRIOR TO the Second Coming of Christ (Rev 19)?

Just because some cannot see things as God has presented them they rant and rave over the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. But they can certainly petition God to leave them on earth so that they might be beheaded by the Antichrist's Gestapo.

Correct...Christ’s Church is NOT ON Earth when the Son of Man Returns, with Power (who IS Christ)...

And why none can answer the question.

Enoch111 · Jun 23, 2022

Taken said:
Correct...Christ’s Church is NOT ON Earth when the Son of Man Returns, with Power (who IS Christ)...

Yes. It would be the height of absurdity to believe that Christ comes WITH His saints from Heaven at His Second Coming but -- oops -- they are still on earth! Then they would be scrambling to get back to Heaven, and then somehow manage to return with Christ. This would be farcical in the extreme.

Taken · Jun 23, 2022

Enoch111 said:
Actually the Bible says that all the Tribulation saints are beheaded.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)

Now if the whole Church was present on earth during the reign of the Antichrist, the whole Church would be beheaded. But that is not what is shown in Scripture (Rev 3:10).
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Since the whole world will be under the control of the Antichrist and Satan, that will be "the hour of temptation" or "the hour of testing". The test will be whether people take the Mark of the Beast and worship him, or absolutely refuse to do either. And those who refuse to do so will be beheaded. But God tells the church at Philadelphia (and by extension the Church just prior to the reign of the Antichrist) that it will not be subject to this time of testing.

However, there will be Tribulation saints on earth who were converted through the preaching of Moses and Elijah (Rev 11). Those saints will defy the Antichrist and pay the ultimate price. But they will be resurrected to live and reign with Christ along with all the other saints. Moses and Elijah will be killed, resurrected, and raptured to Heaven (Rev 11).

To claim that the Church will not be taken to Heaven is to boldly contradict Christ Himself -- a rather rash and bold move for a mere mortal who has no clue about heavenly things. Since our "citizenship" is in Heaven (Phil 3:20), where else would Christians go? For our conversation [citizenship] is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Correct!

Taken · Jun 23, 2022

Enoch111 said:
Yes. It would be the height of absurdity to believe that Christ comes WITH His saints from Heaven at His Second Coming but -- oops -- they are still on earth! Then they would be scrambling to get back to Heaven, and then somehow manage to return with Christ. This would be farcical in the extreme.

Right!

Truth7t7 · Jun 23, 2022

Taken said:
What Is the Church’s purpose to be On Earth during Gods Punishments, Wrath and Tribulations UPON the Earth?

God's words have absolutely no association to your questions of human reason

Truth7t7 · Jun 23, 2022

Enoch111 said:
That would not only be contrary to God's plan for the Church, but as a matter of fact it would stop the reign of the Antichrist. The Holy Spirit must be "taken out of the way" in order for Satan to gain total control of the world, which means that the Church (indwelt by the Spirit) also must be taken out of the way. And where else would the Church be other than in Heaven, since the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven requires the presence of the Church, PRIOR TO the Second Coming of Christ (Rev 19)?

Just because some cannot see things as God has presented them they rant and rave over the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. But they can certainly petition God to leave them on earth so that they might be beheaded by the Antichrist's Gestapo.

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture found in scripture, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man

Your dispensationalism in the "Old School" format, in teaching the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth, so satan can have total world control?

Scofield fixed that teaching in his 1917 revision, because the Holy Spirit is the saving seal for the saints to be saved during the tribulation, can't have the Holy Spirit removed

Truth7t7 · Jun 23, 2022

The Light said:
Yes, that speaks of Christians. Part of Israel will have it's eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (pre trib rapture).

The dragon goes after the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth, during the 70th week of Daniel, when it can't get to those in Israel that have fled to their place of protection.

The lineage of the Jews are determined by the woman. A child is considered Jewish if the child is born to a Jewish mother, hence the seed of the woman.

Scripture states nothing about Satan chasing down 144,000 around the globe as you claim

It states in Revelation 12:6 and Micah 7:12-17 that the 144,000 (The Woman) will flee to the wilderness of Bashan, Gilead, and Carmel, locations that surround Jerusalem

Truth7t7 · Jun 23, 2022

The Light said:
Here's two.

Twenty four elders around the throne with reward crowns. Jesus has returned and brought His reward with Him. And you say there is only one resurrection at the last day.
Rev 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Kings and priests in heaven around the throne. That's the Church.
Rev 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The elders in Revelation 4:4 and those in Revelation 5:9 represent the dead in faith, not one word suggest its a pre-trib rapture as you claim, your theory is based upon assumption and speculation

Truth7t7 · Jun 23, 2022

Taken said:
So why avoid the questions if it is so clear?

No more childish dog and pony show, you have been "Clearly Shown" scriptural truth several times, if you disagree that's your prerogative, we all will be accountable

The Light · Jun 23, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
The elders in Revelation 4:4 and those in Revelation 5:9 represent the dead in faith, not one word suggest its a pre-trib rapture as you claim, your theory is based upon assumption and speculation

Whoa, whoa again Sitting Bull. There is no assumption or speculation. That's your assumption because you don't understand the Word. Those 24 elders have crowns. What does the Word say.

Rev 22
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Behold I come quickly and my reward is with me. Behold I come quickly, hold fast that no man take thy crown.

Obviously, according to the Word, Jesus came, and the 24 elders got their crowns.

When Jesus comes, we get new bodies. So obviously, these are not the dead in faith. This is the raptured Church and they are kings and priests from every kindred, and tongue and people and nation....before the throne.

The Light · Jun 23, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
Scripture states nothing about Satan chasing down 144,000 around the globe as you claim

It states in Revelation 12:6 and Micah 7:12-17 that the 144,000 (The Woman) will flee to the wilderness of Bashan, Gilead, and Carmel, locations that surround Jerusalem

Where have I said anything about Satan chasing down 144,000. The 144,000 are in heaven before the great tribulation. (your chances of understanding that are quite slim).

It is the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, that the dragon goes after when he can't get to the woman, Israel. I have already provided all the scripture to support this statement.

Truth7t7 · Jun 23, 2022

The Light said:
When Jesus comes, we get new bodies. So obviously, these are not the dead in faith. This is the raptured Church and they are kings and priests from every kindred, and tongue and people and nation....before the throne.

(The End) Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Truth7t7 · Jun 24, 2022

Deleted

Keraz · Jun 24, 2022

Taken said:
Taken asked:
What Is the Church’s purpose to be On Earth during Gods Punishment, Wrath and Tribulations UPON the Earth?

The same as it is now; to be the salt and Light to the nations and God's witnesses to the world. Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27
That Commission has not changed, nor will it until Jesus Returns. Matthew 28:19-20

Enoch111 said:
Actually the Bible says that all the Tribulation saints are beheaded.

Actually the Bible does NOT say all the GT saints will be be killed.
Many will be and it is them whom Jesus will bring back to life at His Return. No other people will be resurrected then.
The other half on the Christian peoples will be kept safe in a far away location. Revelation 12:14

Enoch111 said:
Yes. It would be the height of absurdity to believe that Christ comes WITH His saints from Heaven at His Second Coming

Humans returning with Jesus, is the very epitome of sci-fi nonsense and the fanciful dreams of the deluded.
Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14 are irrefutable; Jesus Returns accompanied by the angel armies of heaven.

Taken · Jun 24, 2022

Keraz said:
The same as it is now; to be the salt and Light to the nations and God's witnesses to the world. Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27
That Commission has not changed, nor will it until Jesus Returns. Matthew 28:19-20

@Truth7t7
@No Pre-TB

Revelations!!!
REVEALINGS!!!

Big Picture.
* For 4,000 years God was establishing a DIVISION.
His People ISRAEL...From Gentiles.
Many of His PEOPLE ISRAEL, remained WITH God, some faltered.
* For 2,000 years A broad BLINDING of his PEOPLE ISRAEL, (Provoke them to jealously)...of WHAT?
* Make a WAY for Gentiles. Gentiles having NOT Known God, being INTRODUCED to God, to Gods Messiah (that ISRAEL had been waiting for) ??? PFFF!
* Silly Gentiles fell for that nonsense. Tribes still waiting.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH....
(I am Angry at the Behavior of People OF the World, corrupting Marriage, Waving the sign of Gods Rainbow around as a symbol of female homosexuality, of normalizing homosexuality among men, of the 24-7 propaganda its all about the OUTSIDE, of “kings” speaking with two mouths, of the theft from those who work and take care of their own, of corrupt legislation that Excepts the govt servants from Crimes, of Corrupt churches teaching their Own Doctrines and pretending they are Jesus’ Doctrines, Of children during the bulk of the day being indoctrinated AGAINST God....on and on exponentially across the WHOLE World.)

I fully trust, God is Watching, Angry, Prepared to Send down His Wrath and Tribulations UPON the WHOLE Earth for the WORLD’S “kings” and the people at large....promoting, normalizing, participating and encouraging others to participate IN all things that are Abominable to God Himself.

* BUT DO NOT BE AMISS...
God Promised to SAVE His PEOPLE ISRAEL!
And a great DEAL of Revelations IS EXPRESSLY about the LAST DAYS ... OF GODS....Enough is Enough....Corruption God WILD and RAMPANT in the WHOLE world...and the DAYS of God SAVING HIS PEOPLE ISRAEL!

* The first shall be last and the last shall be first....is expressly about Israel and the Gentiles....and their ORDER according to Gods WAY!

* IF YOU BE desiring to BE UPON the FACE OF THE EARTH, and experience Gods ANGER, WRATH, TRIBULATIONS, HE sends down from Heaven UPON ALL unrighteousness....

* YOU are simply REVEALING, YOU REMAIN, UNRIGHTEOUS and Deserving of Gods Anger, Wrath, Tribulations.

* I on the other hand, heard, learned, believe, trust...God EXPRESSLY provided A WAY, to be cleansed of ALL unrighteousness...AND NOT BE subject to Gods Anger, Wrath, Tribulations.

* There is NOT one iota of Works for Christ’s Church to DO ON EARTH during the Tribulation. Are you all of a sudden going to BECOME ISRAEL’S Teacher and SAVE the Tribes of Israel? Are you all of a sudden going to Convince Corrupted Blinded Gentiles Hollywood is Wrong, it’s not about the Outside, but really about the Inside?

* Are you UNAWARE, For the last 100 years of the PHARMAKIA altering people’s rational thinking, no age barred ? It is common place, daily millions taking drugs, (from newborn to the aged) and you are all of a sudden going to have the great task of spending a couple of years PREACHING to the World at large?

* God already has a PLAN for all the Tribes and all the Gentiles of the World to Hear...and it has NOTHING to do with Christ’s Church.

* Christ’s Church have fulfilled their requirements...
Already Repented of their having HAD disbelief.
Already been Forgiven.
Already been Cleansed of all unrighteousness.
Already laid down their Life FOR their Belief.
Already received their saved Soul.
Already received their quickened spirit.
Are already FOREVER WITH God.
Already God is FOREVER WITH them.
They are already a Faithful servant and their Job well done.
They are Lifted UP off the Face of the Earth....WHILE God does His Job.

Taken · Jun 24, 2022

@Keraz ”Jesus Returns accompanied by the angel armies of heaven”.

@Truth7t7
@No Pre-TB

Actually...The SIGN of the Son of Man, APPEARS. He sits ABOVE the EARTH, sitting ON a White CLOUD....ALL those ON the EARTH, LOOK UP, SEE HIM.....
AND? Wail.
Really? You are going to BE ON EARTH, LOOK UP at the Son of Man sitting on a Cloud....and WAIL? Screech out in ANGER and Fear?

What shall you be Wailing about? That big sickle in His Hand? The OOPS, for knowing The Lords WAY, but not DOING the Lords WAY?

OH, and BTW...WHEN the Son of Man ACTUALLY...RETURNS to “EARTH”, He returns WITH POWER (who IS Christ)....and those WHO ARE Christ’s Church....RETURNS WITH HIM.

Where is Christ’s Church Returning to EARTH FROM?

Col 3:
[3] For ye ME...are dead, and [S your [/S] MY....life is hid with Christ in God.
[4] When Christ, who is ~~our~~ MY life, shall appear, then shall ye ME....also appear with him in glory.

When YOU are ON the face of the Earth LOOKING UP at the SIGN of the Son of Man, sitting on a White Cloud...I shall be WITH HIM...but you shall NOT SEE ME...Because MY BODY will be invisible to YOU...Glorified!

Rev 14:
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

n2thelight · Jun 24, 2022

Taken said:
OH, and BTW...WHEN the Son of Man ACTUALLY...RETURNS to “EARTH”, He returns WITH POWER (who IS Christ)....and those WHO ARE Christ’s Church....RETURNS WITH HIM.

Where is Christ’s Church Returning to EARTH FROM?

This is His 2nd and only coming ,and yes those who have died in Him will return with Him.
They didn't get raptured, they died .

There are only two advents of Crist in all of scripture, period...

Taken · Jun 24, 2022

Keraz said:
Actually the Bible does NOT say all the GT saints will be be killed.
Many will be and it is them whom Jesus will bring back to life at His Return. No other people will be resurrected then.
The other half on the Christian peoples will be kept safe in a far away location. Revelation 12:14

Jesus is not returning to Earth to BRING PEOPLE BACK TO LIFE.
The Son of Man; Jesus.
WITH His Reputation, He IS the Christ.
Christ IS the Power of God
IS the Son of Man WHO returns to Earth WITH His Power...TO REAP, KILL those who rejected HIM. Rev 14:14 —-> forward.

CLEAN UP: stinking dead body’s eaten by Birds.
CLEAN UP: Satan and his band of evil demons lock up in Hell.

Christ Jesus and His SAINTS return to Earth....
as He prepares to sit IN HIS Kingdom, on HIS Throne, WITH HIS Saints...
(You know?....the everlasting Throne God established...same throne king David Occupied)...
(You know?....His Kingdom, the Land God Promised to Abraham and His faithful descendants )
(You know?....A remnant to repopulate the Earth outside of Christ Jesus’ kingdom)
(You know?...the mortals repopulating, establishing, cities, nations, land borders.)
(You Know?....Christ Jesus RULES....KING of His Kingdom OVER the kings of the nations of mortals repopulating the Earth.)
(You know?....Christ Jesus RULES...LORD of His Kingdom OVER the lords of the nations of mortals.)
(You know?....la, la, la, la, la, 1,000 years pass)
(You know?...Satan is loosed.)
(You know?...Satan AGAIN corrupts the “MORTAL” nations to come against Christ Jesus’ Kingdom.
(You know?...that SHARP TWO EDGED sword out from Christ Jesus’ mouth DESTROYS the mortal Attackers...oops they dead.)
(You know?...Christ Jesus’ BAND of Holy Angels, WAR against the Demonic angels, and Defeat them.
(You know?...OOPS, there it is...Clean Sweep, Demons cast down to Hell’s deep bottomless Pit Forever.)
(You know?....ALL those KILLED During the Tribulation, that were SAVED.....ARE NOT WITH CHRIST’S CHRUCH...THEY ARE WITH GOD IN HEAVEN....(Rev 7:14)
(You know? AFTER Christ Jesus’ 1,000 year REIGN with Christ’s Church,
THEN SHALL THE BODY’S (of the saved souls in heaven), BE RAISED UP BY GOD)....(Rev 20:5)

Not a mystery...

Those who BECOME MADE, IN Christ, shall be raised up to the clouds, meet their Lord in the AIR....AND FOREVER BE WITH THEIR LORD..
(You know? where HE IS, so also SHALL THEY BE) 1 Thes 4:17

There are those IN Christ, that ARE SAVED and SHALL Return to EARTH with Christ the Lord Jesus, to rule and reign WITH Him, 1,000 years.
(You Know? Forever WITH Him wherever HE IS.)

There are those WITH GOD, THOSE...”IN JESUS”...
(You Know, Believed at their DEATH, but NEVER COMMITTED, NEVER became CONVERTED IN CHRIST)..who SHALL BE SAVED, and RAISED UP AFTER the 1,000 yr reign of Christ Jesus with His Saints.
God will Bring those WITH HIM. (1 Thes 14:14)

The Pre-Trib Rapture

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads