Positive thinking and Faith

I absolutely agree and this has been a central belief of mine for a long time. Faith is not "positive thinking". It leads to it much of the time, though. You hit the nail on the head with saying faith is understanding spiritual reality. Good post!

My view is that faith and hope are intertwined, one leads to another. But you are right that they are different. I look at faith as being a confidence in the promises that are yet to be fulfilled. Paul describes what faith is at Hebrews 11:1 "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld"
And this is where hope comes into the picture....Hope is an expression of our desire to see Gods promises become a reality...when we are confident that Gods promises will certainly become a reality, our hope leads us to faith.


It should also be pointed out that both these qualities come from Gods holy spirit, so they are both important to a christian and both are spiritual qualities so we should strive to cultivate both.
1Cor 13:4 Love is long-suffering and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, does not get puffed up, 5 does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. 6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things
Galatians 5:22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control

Prentis said:

I think the dangerous thing is we can have hope, and think that hope is assured, without actually having faith.

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My friend, you are still missing the point! Assurance is real, because it doesn't come from, or depend upon us! In hearing the gospel, we believe:

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14 ESV) (Acquire possession of it refers to when we receive our new bodies before the throne of God_

And in believing we have faith, and faith gives us eternal life!

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.
(Romans 3:23-25a ESV)

Yes, we are to then live a life of following Jesus, and all that that entails, but we don't do that because of fear we will loose that free gift given to us.

if we are faithless, he remains faithful—
for he cannot deny himself.
(2 Timothy 2:13 ESV)

Look, when it really comes down to it...consider this: we are told, and you agree, that we can only live a 'godly' life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within us...that by ourselves, we are incapable of it.

You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:2-3 ESV)

And as long as we have that Spirit, we are saved. We are also told that we will never be forsaken. So as long as God is faithful, which we know He is, we will always have the Holy Spirit helping us live the life we need to to honour God. So to say we can loose our salvation by not living up to His expectations, is also saying that the Holy Spirit will abandon us to our own efforts. And therefore, it is by our own efforts that we hold onto our free gift. The Bible in no way teaches any of that. The Holy Spirit will be with us always, giving us that assurance and hope:

But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7 ESV)

Rach said:

My friend, you are still missing the point! Assurance is real, because it doesn't come from, or depend upon us! In hearing the gospel, we believe:

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14 ESV) (Acquire possession of it refers to when we receive our new bodies before the throne of God_

And in believing we have faith, and faith gives us eternal life!

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.
(Romans 3:23-25a ESV)

Yes, we are to then live a life of following Jesus, and all that that entails, but we don't do that because of fear we will loose that free gift given to us.

if we are faithless, he remains faithful—
for he cannot deny himself.
(2 Timothy 2:13 ESV)

Look, when it really comes down to it...consider this: we are told, and you agree, that we can only live a 'godly' life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within us...that by ourselves, we are incapable of it.

You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:2-3 ESV)

And as long as we have that Spirit, we are saved. We are also told that we will never be forsaken. So as long as God is faithful, which we know He is, we will always have the Holy Spirit helping us live the life we need to to honour God. So to say we can loose our salvation by not living up to His expectations, is also saying that the Holy Spirit will abandon us to our own efforts. And therefore, it is by our own efforts that we hold onto our free gift. The Bible in no way teaches any of that. The Holy Spirit will be with us always, giving us that assurance and hope:

But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7 ESV)

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Rach, I like your post, but I didn't get the impression that Prentis missed any points. I can't and won't speak for him, but I speak for my opinion that I think he gets it. I've seen a lot of growth from him in the last couple of weeks. If he's missing anything, he'll pick it up soon at the rate he's going.

faith is substance, nothing else.knowing what to believe for comes by hearing the word of God, then hoping [believing] tor it. faith and hope are 2 different things.

Prentis said:

As long as we are abiding, we are safe, yes.

I'm not saying hope with faith doesn't save. I'm saying hope WITHOUT faith doesn't save. If we hope we will be saved by Christ, but don't walk daily in faith, this hope will not be fulfilled.

We must grow now and walk in faith now, obeying God now, that our hope might be fulfilled.

Let me put it like this; true faith required Noah to build the ark, and true faith requires the same from us; obedience. Having hope without faith, obedience, does not make a man godly, nore bring him to God.

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I abide in the fact that I already have been placed into Christ. My having been placed into Christ is my salvation...my abiding in that fact is part of the fruit of the Spirit and is a secondary instrumental means of further fruit...including obedience. So I obey God not in order to attain hope but my obedience is an outworking (fruit) of a previous in-working that God has wrought by His Spirit and His Word (especially the Word of the Gospel).

But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
(1Co 12:18)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Rom 6:1-11)

Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
(Eph 3:20)

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
(Php 2:12-13)

Prentis said:

Faith without works is dead. The faith that saves a man is the faith that answers in obedience, as it was with Noah, Abraham, Moses, the disciples, Paul, etc. And we must continue in this faith if we are to attain our hope. We stop doing our works, yes, but that we may do his.

Our faith saves us from the current attack or death as long as it is alive, cries out to God and follows him. A man who believes he must be in the ark to be saved, but neither builds the ark nor enters it is not saved.

God works in us and calls us, for good works, and that we might become like him!

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This is very interesting, Prentis. I agree, but for reasons I haven't stated on this board yet. Here are those reasons. I've called attention to your post in bold fonts. The first one is a quote from James. We'd have to go through the history of the Lord's half brother to get to my point, but I believe, with Biblical evidence, that he and Paul were not on the same page. That is so even after the Jerusalem council (Please bear with me for a while) But what James said is true even if it wasn't his intended message. Faith without works is not dead. On the surface, James was wrong. Flat out I say that! And the works James was talking about were the wrong works... Faith without GOOD works are not only dead, they aren't faith. In other words, "our works" are the wrong ones. "God's" works are the right ones. Without "Good" works (or "God's works) faith is dead.

Confused? Let me further explain. Our works are cleaning up our flesh, which can't be cleaned. God's works are hearing his Word, studying it, helping and loving the brethren (even those who we don't know are brethren), and obeying Him in the New Covenent.

The way it's been for me lately Prentis is almost like I have a spiritual gas tank when it's full all is well when it's getting empty things get a little sketchy. Works fill that gas tank up and keep my faith going strong and my eyes on God. Positive thinking seems to help It's better than beating yourself up all the time and being excessivley negative with people. Of course that can go the other way too I think I told a real spiritually sick person that he was a great guy the other day and that he was doing good things in his life. For all I know this guy liked little boys and I just sent him on his way happy and ready to sin as he always does.

Prentis,
It seems you are on the edge of turning 'our faith' into a work of our own. Specifically, we are not saved or kept by our faith. Saving faith abandons all hope in oneself (including one's faith) and places full hope in Christ Jesus and His Righteousness. Technically it is not faith that saves but Jesus Christ, and that, from start to finish.
It is so easy for us to turn faith into a meritorious act. Our 'obedience' that is acceptable before God is that which is done from a purely thankful heart for what He has done, is doing, and promises to do.

prism said:

Prentis,
It seems you are on the edge of turning 'our faith' into a work of our own. Specifically, we are not saved or kept by our faith. Saving faith abandons all hope in oneself (including one's faith) and places full hope in Christ Jesus and His Righteousness. Technically it is not faith that saves but Jesus Christ, and that, from start to finish.
It is so easy for us to turn faith into a meritorious act. Our 'obedience' that is acceptable before God is that which is done from a purely thankful heart for what He has done, is doing, and promises to do.

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Amen! I couldn't have said it better!
I think a lot of confusion comes because others feel that when we say this ^^^^^^, that we are in fact saying that we are free to act and behave as we choose, given that our salvation comes through Jesus as a free gift. That is simply not true, for two reasons. First, I would say that anyone who reads the Bible is well aware that we are encouraged to live a life that is worthy of our calling. We are ambassadors for Christ...our lives should show others a very real change in our hearts. We know also that any true faith, any true regeneration will bear good fruit, or good works. This is all, as you say, in response to what Jesus did and continues to do in our lives.
Secondly, I'd have to say that anyone who loves Jesus and has the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them...well, they desire living for God. It's not really a matter of "what should I be doing to keep myself on that narrow road?"...it's more action just because we love our God and are just so grateful for His mercy, love and grace.