New Covenant only for Jews?

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Ronald Nolette

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Listen to a real scholar.


J.

I like this guy a lot! The only thing I disagree with him on is his "realized/unrealized eschatolgy" hypothesis. It is also called partial fulfilment which I am conviinced is wrong.

I have taught eschatology in bible college/institutes for over 3 decades now and sat under a Messianic Jew. Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. He can viewed on you tube and covers many many subjects on you tube and his scores of books and manuscripts. From what I heard the only place they differ is this Dr. Smithi concept of partial fulffilment which isan idea that runs through some circles.

All the prophecies he spoke of- are still future prophecies for the nation of Israel. The Babylonian return, the destruction of the temple in 70Ad and the partial restoration of Israel spiritually are all covered by other prophecies. There are very few (I believe you can count them on one hand and have fingers leftover) where in one passage you have a two part prophecy describing a near event an a further event. But partial fulfilment is not fulfilment.

Otherwise I think this guy is great. He has the correct understanding of Gods dealing with Israel. But the new covenant has not gone into effect yet! Because it involves all teh living Jews not just a ffew in generations and it involves all knowing the Lord not just some now and the rest later. the partial righteous Jews are covered in many other prophecies without having to resort to a partial fulfment theory .
 

Johann

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I like this guy a lot! The only thing I disagree with him on is his "realized/unrealized eschatolgy" hypothesis. It is also called partial fulfilment which I am conviinced is wrong.

I have taught eschatology in bible college/institutes for over 3 decades now and sat under a Messianic Jew. Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. He can viewed on you tube and covers many many subjects on you tube and his scores of books and manuscripts. From what I heard the only place they differ is this Dr. Smithi concept of partial fulffilment which isan idea that runs through some circles.

All the prophecies he spoke of- are still future prophecies for the nation of Israel. The Babylonian return, the destruction of the temple in 70Ad and the partial restoration of Israel spiritually are all covered by other prophecies. There are very few (I believe you can count them on one hand and have fingers leftover) where in one passage you have a two part prophecy describing a near event an a further event. But partial fulfilment is not fulfilment.

Otherwise I think this guy is great. He has the correct understanding of Gods dealing with Israel. But the new covenant has not gone into effect yet! Because it involves all teh living Jews not just a ffew in generations and it involves all knowing the Lord not just some now and the rest later. the partial righteous Jews are covered in many other prophecies without having to resort to a partial fulfment theory .
Thank you for listening, yes, he is definitely one of my "favorites"
I will look up on the Rabbi you have mentioned.
Shalom
A blessing to sit with a Messianic Jew as he expounds the scriptures.
J.
 

covenantee

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Yes I would agree with you if I was referencing the Bible Hub web site and the first meaning given at the top of the page, but the Strong definition given at the bottom of the left column under the heading "Strong's Exhaustive Concordance" mentions "freshness.

I know that I only changed one word in the Jer. 31:31 verse where i wrote: -

“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a refreshed covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah."​

I could have kept to the Hebrew order of words and written: -

“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will remake with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah a covenant like new."
As we read further in this passage of Scripture, we learn that the covenant that the lord will remake with the Hour of Israel and Judah is basically the same covenant that God made with the nation of Israel at Mt. Sinai which they rejected within 40 days after agreeing to abide with the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's Possession among the Nations Covenant with some minor tweaks to the renewed covenanted.

Contextually within this passage, what you are suggesting does not fit the thrust of what God is promising to do.

Shalom

Hebrews 8
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

How is the New Covenant, which is "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers", "basically the same covenant"?
 
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covenantee

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Well I did not say the covenant does not exist. What I said is that the covenant has not yet gone into effect. big difference.

Jesus blood is not the cvovenant, but the price paid to insure the covenant will go into effect at the proper time.

Once again I ask you the following: If the New covenant is now in effect, then please show when the provisions of the covenant went into force>

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Also explain why you insist on adding gentiles to the covenant when the plain clear and unambiguous language says the covenant is with all Israel and Judah?

There is no essential difference between a New Covenant that does not yet exist, and a New Covenant that has "not yet gone into effect".

The latter is as impotent as the former.

Did Jesus tell His disciples that His New Covenant had "not yet gone into effect"?

Did Paul, in his description of the Lord's Supper, even hint that the New Covenant had "not yet gone into effect"?

Explain why you insist on excluding Gentiles when both Gentiles and Jews are clearly included in 2 Corinthians 3:6.
 
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PinSeeker

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Clearly, the New Covenant is not merely future, but past, present, and future ~ since Jesus's coming and coming to completeness at His return. This is God's infallible and inerrant Word (emphases added):

Just for completeness's sake, here is the New Covenant that God promises through Jeremiah:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” (Jeremiah 31:31-34)​

What Jesus did and taught throughout His public ministry, even from the beginning when He read from Isaiah 9 and 61, confirms this. Matthew and Luke document this, but here is the text of

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” (Luke 4:18-19)

Paul says has been happening since Jesus came, and is still the case even today:

Regarding God's putting His law within us, and writing it on our hearts:

"For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts... For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." (Romans 2:14-15; Romans 2:28-29).

"God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us" (Romans 5:5)

"But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed..." (Romans 6:17)

And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee." (2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

"And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts." (2 Corinthians 3:3)

"But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God." (Galatians 4:4-7)

"For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might..." (Ephesians 1:15-19)

"For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from Whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of His glory He may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith..." (Ephesians 3:14-17)

"Now may our God and Father himself, and our Lord Jesus, direct our way to you, and may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints." (1 Thessalonians 3:11-13)​

Regarding His forgiving our sins and remembering them ~ exacting condemnation and judgment because of our sin ~ no more:

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:1-4)

"In (Christ Jesus) we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace..." (Ephesians 1:7)​

"Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

"...thanks to the Father, Who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in Whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Colossians 1:12-14)

"...if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:7-9)​

Again, without question, the New Covenant is not merely future, but past, present, and future ~ since Jesus's coming and coming to completeness at His return. It is firmly in place, the one everlasting Covenant having finally blossomed in it's glorious fullness, encompassing all the previous lesser covenants which all fall under the heading of the Old Covenant (the covenant of life with Adam and renewed with Noah, the covenant of a people and land with Abraham, the covenant of the law with Moses, the covenant of forever kingship with David). Jesus Christ is the final, perfect, complete iteration of God's Covenant made through Jesus in His life, death, resurrection, and ascension to the the right hand of the Father and in the pouring out of His Spirit, a very present reality. We have this now, and it will be made complete in the fullness of God's time, His millennium, at Christ's return. As Paul says:

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (Romans 11:25-27)​

Grace and peace to all!
 
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covenantee

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I like this guy a lot! The only thing I disagree with him on is his "realized/unrealized eschatolgy" hypothesis. It is also called partial fulfilment which I am conviinced is wrong.

I have taught eschatology in bible college/institutes for over 3 decades now and sat under a Messianic Jew. Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. He can viewed on you tube and covers many many subjects on you tube and his scores of books and manuscripts. From what I heard the only place they differ is this Dr. Smithi concept of partial fulffilment which isan idea that runs through some circles.

All the prophecies he spoke of- are still future prophecies for the nation of Israel. The Babylonian return, the destruction of the temple in 70Ad and the partial restoration of Israel spiritually are all covered by other prophecies. There are very few (I believe you can count them on one hand and have fingers leftover) where in one passage you have a two part prophecy describing a near event an a further event. But partial fulfilment is not fulfilment.

Otherwise I think this guy is great. He has the correct understanding of Gods dealing with Israel. But the new covenant has not gone into effect yet! Because it involves all teh living Jews not just a ffew in generations and it involves all knowing the Lord not just some now and the rest later. the partial righteous Jews are covered in many other prophecies without having to resort to a partial fulfment theory .

How does God identify His True Israel?

1. DNA
2. Religion
3. Culture
4. Domicile
5. Faithfulness and obedience to His Son

?

A reminder; you have yet to produce one name from pre-19th-century historical Christian orthodoxy who denied that the New Covenant has been fully alive since Calvary.
 
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Jay Ross

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How is the New Covenant, which is "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers", "basically the same covenant"?

Because the Jer. 31:31ff covenant has the same purpose as the covenant made with Israel at Mt. Sinai which they rebelled against while Moses was up on the mountain with God for forty days.

Shalom
 

Ronald David Bruno

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ah well i doubt that literal animals are being discussed there? dunno
and i didnt mean to imply anything!
Jer. 31:27 may be referring to a time when God will sow incorruptible seed, seed that does not die. Obviously our resurrection is of incorruptible seed. Adam's sin also corrupted the animal kingdom as well, bringing death and corruption to them. Someday, the beasts shall be healed as well. Peace and harmony shall abound throughout the New Earth and New Heaven AFTER death is thrown into the Lake of Fire, at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Paul uses the image of “the olive tree” in Romans 11 to show that Gentiles have become part of true Israel. His olive tree analogy is deliberate. He takes this imagery from the prophets who likened Israel to an olive tree in Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10 and 14:6-7.


No, He uses the illustration to show that Gentiles as gentiles are now grafted in to christ and not Israel. there are Jewish branches and there are gentile branches grafted into God not Israel.

Remember Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:11-19
King James Version

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;


Notice how he closes this?

We are no more strangers but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God (Jews)

Or another place in romans :

Romans 11
King James Version

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

Romans 11:25-29
King James Version

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Paul once again plainly contrasts Jews and Gentiles. 25-27 is strictly Israel. vse 28 shows that the nation is now an enemy for the gentriles sake (the calling out of the gentiles a people for His name) Why? Because the call of God is without a change of mind !

Jews and Gentiles today are grafted into this Israeli tree by faith in Christ – who is ultimately true Israel. The New Testament Church today being one with Christ is therefore also true Israel. They have been integrated into believing Israel and have been enjoined to all the elect of the Old Testament era. As a prince they have indeed spiritual power with God and with men, and have prevailed. So, God does not have a separate plan for national Israel outside of the Church. Every Jew and Gentile who trusts in the Lord Jesus are God’s elect or faithful Israel

The tree is not Israeli, but Jesus. Itr is the place of Israel;i blessing that now Gentiles partake in, b ut not by adopting a new identity.

In the Millenial kingdom god most certainly does have a plan for national Israel. If you wish I can show you all the prophecies where God says "I will" give to Israel or cause Israel to rule on the earth under Jesus! when God says He will, he will.

Since pentecost all saved become the espoused of Jesus, and in Jesus (since Pentecost) there is no difference, we are the church, not spiritual Israel! We have a separate role from Israel in the millenial kingdom (not Jewish Christians whose role is in the body of Christ) as well as the gentile trib saints also have their own role in the millenial kingdom. We are all saved, but have different roles and functions.

Israel is the wife of Jehovah, The church is the bride of christ and they are not the same.
 

WPM

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No, He uses the illustration to show that Gentiles as gentiles are now grafted in to christ and not Israel. there are Jewish branches and there are gentile branches grafted into God not Israel.

Remember Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:11-19
King James Version

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;


Notice how he closes this?

We are no more strangers but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God (Jews)

Or another place in romans :

Romans 11
King James Version

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

Romans 11:25-29
King James Version

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Paul once again plainly contrasts Jews and Gentiles. 25-27 is strictly Israel. vse 28 shows that the nation is now an enemy for the gentriles sake (the calling out of the gentiles a people for His name) Why? Because the call of God is without a change of mind !



The tree is not Israeli, but Jesus. Itr is the place of Israel;i blessing that now Gentiles partake in, b ut not by adopting a new identity.

In the Millenial kingdom god most certainly does have a plan for national Israel. If you wish I can show you all the prophecies where God says "I will" give to Israel or cause Israel to rule on the earth under Jesus! when God says He will, he will.

Since pentecost all saved become the espoused of Jesus, and in Jesus (since Pentecost) there is no difference, we are the church, not spiritual Israel! We have a separate role from Israel in the millenial kingdom (not Jewish Christians whose role is in the body of Christ) as well as the gentile trib saints also have their own role in the millenial kingdom. We are all saved, but have different roles and functions.

Israel is the wife of Jehovah, The church is the bride of christ and they are not the same.

Not true. You're fighting with Scripture.

No one objective could surely dispute we are looking at an Israeli tree here. Paul carefully describes the Jews who have been cut off as “natural branches” and being of “their own olive tree.” This shows us that this is an Israeli tree that held Israeli citizens. If the “natural branches” represent natural Israelis, and faith in Christ is the criterion for partaking in “the olive tree,” we can only be looking at the faithful genetic seed of Abraham who embraced Christ. This is the elect remnant of Israel. It was this holy remnant that remained attached to the Israeli olive tree that the Gentiles who believed now join in this new covenant era. This fulfills various Old Testament predictions that through Abraham’s seed all the families of the earth would be blessed (Genesis 12:1-3, 17:3-8, 17:15-16, 18:18 and 22:16-18).
 

Ronald Nolette

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But the central (and overriding) theme that permeates Paul’s teaching in Romans 9–11 is his remnant theology. It is in these chapters that the teaching reaches its apex in regard to content and development. Paul brings much meat to the table and highlights the difference between national Israel and true remnant elect Israel. Paul also references various Old Testament Scriptures to show the continuity of the faithful remnant from the old economy to the new. He then shows on what grounds the Gentiles have been integrated into faithful Israel. He demonstrates how the New Testament congregation of God of all nations constitutes the covenant remnant of God today. He reveals how this elect company has grown to be a significant force on this earth. Paul lays all this out in a very structured, systematic and unambiguous way in these chapters.

If you paid attention here you would not need comment further. Spiritual Israel is the faithful remnant from natural Israel! Gentiles do not get adopted in to some spiritual 12 tribes! We are saved by christ and blessed in christ! We are grafted into the vine which is christ and not Israel!

Romans 9-11 shows Paul under teh INspiration of the Spirit making clear distinction between Jew and gentile and that Israel is partially blinded now- until the full number of gentiles are come in.

God is consistent with His use of Words and if the Church is Israel in the New Testament- Then the church is blinded in part until the full number of gentiles com ein ( who are gentiles now???) YOu have to be consistent. god does not play word games.

If the church is the covenant remnant, what were we before. Israel was not the church. What covenant are we the remnant of??? Can you show me how we are experiencing the terms of the covenant you need to show from SCripture?

The same idea is presented here (surrounded by the exact same key Greek words) as Galatians 6:16: epi ... kai epi (“on ... even on”). No one would be as naïve as to argue that the “ass” and the “colt” mentioned above are two different beasts. No, it is obvious that this is speaking of the one same animal. It literally reads, “on an ass, even on a colt the foal of an ass.” The “even on” simply adds further detail upon the description already given on the matter. In this case, not only is it an ass, but it is “a colt the foal of an ass.” This verse assists us in our understanding of Galatians 6:16, and illustrates the real import of this much-debated text.

But they were. This has been fully established. Ass is an adult donkey, colt is a juvenile. they took teh mother colt so th ebaby would follow. So it is two beasts.

The same formation of Greek words is found in the same sequence, in order to present the same idea in Revelation 14:6, which reads, “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto [Gr. epi] them that dwell on the earth, and [Gr. kai epi] to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”

False argument on your part. Based on the construct of this passage the KAI EPI shows HOW the angel will accomplish preaching to them that dwell on the earth- by going to every nation, kindred, tongue and ethnos.

Galatinas 6:16 Shows WHO is to be blessed , all who walk according to the predefined rules, and unto the Israel of God. This would be defining the same people twice which it is not grammatically.

Once again rev. focuses on a how something is to be accomplished and Galatians shows who is to be blessed and based on the constgruct Gal. is describing two people groups not one group mentioned twice.

This is a passage that has confused many Christians over the years. The reason for this seems to revolve around the phrase “all Israel shall be saved.” There are many that deduce corporate salvation for natural Israel from this. But is Paul contradicting himself in his Romans 9-11 discourse? In one breath in Romans 9:27 he is saying “a remnant shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative), in the next, in Romans 11:26, he is saying “all Israel shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative).

YOu are now forcing two different thoughts in to one.

The OT has three major prophecies that declare explicitly and unambiguously that God will save "all Israel at on epoint in the future. That is not every Jew but all Jews living at that time.

Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Zechariah 13:8-9
King James Version

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Either these things shall come to pass or God lied! It is He that declared they will come to pass and it is clearly natural Israel that is the subject!
 

Ronald Nolette

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Galatians 6:15-16 states, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on [Gr. epi] them, and mercy, even on [Gr. kai epi] the Israel of God.”

You attempt to create two peoples of God in this reading, despite the fact that Paul’s whole import in this reading is that there is only one harmonious people of God. Dispensationalists make much of the words “and upon” (kai epi) and present this as proof that there is a distinction among God’s people. However, this flimsy argument is quickly nullified by (1) looking at the whole trust of Paul’s argument, (2) taking a closer look at the original Greek and (3) exploring similar usages of the Greek phrase in Scripture.

No it is your presumptuous attempt at drawing my conclusions for me that says I make two people here. For I don't!!!! IN Christ there is no distinction. All have equ7al access. Paul is contrasting how there were distinctions in Israel in an approach to Yanweh, but now all in Christ have equal access. We are a new thing, different from the old thing. Gentiles could only adsvance to the couret of teh gentiles and no further etc.etc. YOu reject Pauls knowledge and the fact that the Judaizers were drawing distinctions and Paul said in christ no!

In Christ there are saved Jews and saved Gentiles. these national distinctions do not end. Saved Jews still must circumcise their male children, for this istheir covenant God made with with Abraham for ALL generations.

There is a distinction between gods people from differing ages for the millenial kingdom. Jews will be the center of the earth and all gentile nations will have to send a rep. once a year, observe tabernacles and bring a saqcrifice to the temple. If they don't there will be drought in their land that year!

If you want I can list the scores of distinctions GOD said will be in the millenial kingdom! OT saints are not part of the church! they were never baptized inthe Spirit! They had the ondwelling of the spirit, but never the indwelling of the spirit. that was first done at Pentecost.

Trib saints also have a different role in the millenial kingdom than Israel and the church! They also are not part of the church. REv. 19. The OT and trib saints are th einvited to celebrate teh wedding feast of the Lamb. The church is His bride and the rest are the invited guests! Everyt one is saved, but only saits from Pentecost to the raputre are teh body of Christ.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Thank you for listening, yes, he is definitely one of my "favorites"
I will look up on the Rabbi you have mentioned.
Shalom
A blessing to sit with a Messianic Jew as he expounds the scriptures.
J.
ONe of the things I so appreciate about Dr. Fruchtenbaum is that before he was saved he was studying to be a patriarchal rabbi to take his fathers palce! By the age of thirteen he had the poetic books memorized in order.

He also has a degree in biblical archeology from Hebrew University in Tel Aviv as well as extensive studies in Jewish historical culture.

At my church He did a series on the life of Christ and it made the gospels come so alive! He explained things most Christians simply do not understand for we are not taught Jewish 1st century culture and how they spoke etc.etc.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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There is no essential difference between a New Covenant that does not yet exist, and a New Covenant that has "not yet gone into effect".

The latter is as impotent as the former.

Did Jesus tell His disciples that His New Covenant had "not yet gone into effect"?

Did Paul, in his description of the Lord's Supper, even hint that the New Covenant had "not yet gone into effect"?

Explain why you insist on excluding Gentiles when both Gentiles and Jews are clearly included in 2 Corinthians 3:6.

This still doesn't answer the question of you showing when it did go onto effect as it is written in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

and there is a huge difference between something that does not exist, and something that does and has not gone into effect yet! that is a red herring.

did Jesus say it went into effect at teh Last Supper? which verse is that? or at his death? which verse is that? Once again show me from history the oprovisions god said He would do as laid out in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and I will recant my position. But if you cannot show me, then maybe you should think of recanting your position.
 

Ronald Nolette

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How does God identify His True Israel?

1. DNA
2. Religion
3. Culture
4. Domicile
5. Faithfulness and obedience to His Son

?

A reminder; you have yet to produce one name from pre-19th-century historical Christian orthodoxy who denied that the New Covenant has been fully alive since Calvary.


And you have yet to show me from history since calvary when and where the provisions of the new covenant as spelled out in Jeremiah 31:31-34 have been fulfilled!

As for true Israel? Teh bible never calls any part of Israel true Israel. there is the Israel of God ( those righteous and saved jews) and then there is natural Israel which is by DNA. but I don't rmember ever seeing "true Israel;" in the bible.

Let us be more specific with our terms.

Natural Israel is true Israel for they are genetic Jews.

spiritual Israel is true Israel, for God also separates saved from unsaved Israel by calling them the Israel of God!
 

Ronald Nolette

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Not true. You're fighting with Scripture.

No one objective could surely dispute we are looking at an Israeli tree here. Paul carefully describes the Jews who have been cut off as “natural branches” and being of “their own olive tree.” This shows us that this is an Israeli tree that held Israeli citizens. If the “natural branches” represent natural Israelis, and faith in Christ is the criterion for partaking in “the olive tree,” we can only be looking at the faithful genetic seed of Abraham who embraced Christ. This is the elect remnant of Israel. It was this holy remnant that remained attached to the Israeli olive tree that the Gentiles who believed now join in this new covenant era. This fulfills various Old Testament predictions that through Abraham’s seed all the families of the earth would be blessed (Genesis 12:1-3, 17:3-8, 17:15-16, 18:18 and 22:16-18).

Well according to your allegorical reinterpretation I fight the Scriptures. But as it is written and as words are commonly understood, I agree with the Scriptures.

Rom. 11:

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Once again Jesus did not say we are the vine, but the branches. the vine and root are jesus and the Jewish branches are the natural covenanted branches that belong there. Some are broken off because of unbelief and we are grafted in. Not to the Israeli branches, but to vine which is Jesus.

It is you who are arguing with the Scriptures as it is written.
 

WPM

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If you paid attention here you would not need comment further. Spiritual Israel is the faithful remnant from natural Israel! Gentiles do not get adopted in to some spiritual 12 tribes! We are saved by christ and blessed in christ! We are grafted into the vine which is christ and not Israel!

Romans 9-11 shows Paul under teh INspiration of the Spirit making clear distinction between Jew and gentile and that Israel is partially blinded now- until the full number of gentiles are come in.

God is consistent with His use of Words and if the Church is Israel in the New Testament- Then the church is blinded in part until the full number of gentiles com ein ( who are gentiles now???) YOu have to be consistent. god does not play word games.

If the church is the covenant remnant, what were we before. Israel was not the church. What covenant are we the remnant of??? Can you show me how we are experiencing the terms of the covenant you need to show from SCripture?



But they were. This has been fully established. Ass is an adult donkey, colt is a juvenile. they took teh mother colt so th ebaby would follow. So it is two beasts.



False argument on your part. Based on the construct of this passage the KAI EPI shows HOW the angel will accomplish preaching to them that dwell on the earth- by going to every nation, kindred, tongue and ethnos.

Galatinas 6:16 Shows WHO is to be blessed , all who walk according to the predefined rules, and unto the Israel of God. This would be defining the same people twice which it is not grammatically.

Once again rev. focuses on a how something is to be accomplished and Galatians shows who is to be blessed and based on the constgruct Gal. is describing two people groups not one group mentioned twice.



YOu are now forcing two different thoughts in to one.

The OT has three major prophecies that declare explicitly and unambiguously that God will save "all Israel at on epoint in the future. That is not every Jew but all Jews living at that time.

Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Zechariah 13:8-9
King James Version

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Either these things shall come to pass or God lied! It is He that declared they will come to pass and it is clearly natural Israel that is the subject!

The reality is: God rejects the ethnic apartheid you promote. There is nothing more unbiblical in this new covenant period than trying to divide up the people of God on the grounds of ethnicity. That is spiritual apartheid. It runs completely to the New Testament plan of God to bring Jew and Gentile together equally in Christ. The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!

The New Testament makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time.
 

WPM

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Well according to your allegorical reinterpretation I fight the Scriptures. But as it is written and as words are commonly understood, I agree with the Scriptures.

Rom. 11:

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Once again Jesus did not say we are the vine, but the branches. the vine and root are jesus and the Jewish branches are the natural covenanted branches that belong there. Some are broken off because of unbelief and we are grafted in. Not to the Israeli branches, but to vine which is Jesus.

It is you who are arguing with the Scriptures as it is written.

No, you do not agree with it. You are actually fighting it. Rom. 11 is not a vine it is an olive tree. Please read it again. You are getting mixed up.
 

WPM

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And you have yet to show me from history since calvary when and where the provisions of the new covenant as spelled out in Jeremiah 31:31-34 have been fulfilled!

As for true Israel? Teh bible never calls any part of Israel true Israel. there is the Israel of God ( those righteous and saved jews) and then there is natural Israel which is by DNA. but I don't rmember ever seeing "true Israel;" in the bible.

Let us be more specific with our terms.

Natural Israel is true Israel for they are genetic Jews.

spiritual Israel is true Israel, for God also separates saved from unsaved Israel by calling them the Israel of God!

Jesus said in John 5:23b-24, “He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

This couldn’t be clearer. Those Jews and Gentiles that don’t accept Christ don’t accept the Father. Christ-rejecting Jews and Gentiles are under condemnation and are therefore of their father the devil.

I John 2:22-23 solemnly asks,Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (or Messiah)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”


Jews who accept Christ as Saviour and Lord are true children of Abraham, Gentiles who accept Christ as Saviour and Lord are true children of Abraham. Jews who reject Christ as Saviour and Lord are not true children of Abraham, Gentiles who reject Christ as Saviour and Lord are not true children of Abraham.

Jesus said in Luke 9:48, whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me.”


The overwhelming amount of Jews for 2,000 years have rejected Christ, Christ will therefore reject them. Notwithstanding, there has always been a redeemed remnant that have accepted God's only provision for sin and uncleanness. Those that accepts Christ are accepted of the Father. Those that deny Him are denied by the Father.

Jesus said in John 15:23, “He that hateth me hateth my Father also.”


How can they be of God's if they reject God's only means of reconciliation between man and God? You are presenting another gospel. The unsaved Jew does not receive Christ; therefore the Father does not receive him. He is not God's, he is the devil's. God's favour and blessing is upon those who accept His Son. His judgment is upon those who reject Him.

John the Baptist said in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”


If the Jew loves Christ He is one of God's chosen, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!!
 

WPM

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ONe of the things I so appreciate about Dr. Fruchtenbaum is that before he was saved he was studying to be a patriarchal rabbi to take his fathers palce! By the age of thirteen he had the poetic books memorized in order.

He also has a degree in biblical archeology from Hebrew University in Tel Aviv as well as extensive studies in Jewish historical culture.

At my church He did a series on the life of Christ and it made the gospels come so alive! He explained things most Christians simply do not understand for we are not taught Jewish 1st century culture and how they spoke etc.etc.

What does all that matter if he is wrong in his theology?
 
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