Reconciling Romans 4:2 with James 2:24

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Bible Highlighter

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III. Verses on Sanctification Being a Part of Salvation.

Important Note:
Sanctification takes place only after
we are first saved by
God's grace through faith:

#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).


Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).


(Continued in next post):
 

Bible Highlighter

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#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).


Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
 

Bible Highlighter

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IV. Obeying God's Commands as a Part of Eternal Life Verses:

Matthew 19:17-19
17 “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”

Luke 10:25-28
25 “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.”

1 John 3:23
“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”

Hebrews 5:9
“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him”

Revelation 22:14
“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

Note: This would be the keeping of the New Testament Commands primarily. Believers in the New Covenant are not obligated to keep the 613 Laws of Moses. They don’t have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, holy days, etcetera. Believers today are under the Laws of Christ. After they are saved by God’s grace, they would then naturally want to obey the Lord Jesus and His commands (and the commands given to us by His followers).
 

Bible Highlighter

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Bonus Point:

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).


We are told to:

  1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

  2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

  3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

This does not sound like it is automatic or a walk in the park. Paul says he fought the good fight of faith, and he kept the faith. So Eternal Security is not true. We are not kept against our will and neither are forced into some kind of transformation whereby we can only do good. We are told to continue in His goodness, etc.
 

Bible Highlighter

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Bible Highlighter said:
We see a similar thing in 1 John 1:7.

If we walk in the light as He is in the light... the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Walking in the light is loving your brother according to the indirect wording of 1 John 2:9-11.

So you have to love your brother in order for the blood of Jesus to continue to cleanse you from all sin.
Your surface reading of 1 John 1:7 results in "type 2 works salvation." I already thoroughly explained 1 John 1:7 to you (after properly harmonizing scripture with scripture) in post #269 from the link below:

The Sabbath Day

BUT unfortunately, I can see that what I explained to you obviously went right over your head.
You said:
1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. Verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that walks in darkness and hates his brother is connected to children of the devil.

Not sure how you're bringing up what you mentioned here has anything to do with what I said in regards 1 John 1:7.

1 John 1:7 says:
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

It’s conditional. IF…. IF…. IF we walk in the light. You are not forced to walk in the light. It’s conditional. You have to choose to walk in the light. That’s why the word IF is in 1 John 1:7. John is referring to both himself and the brethren he is writing to by using the word…. “we.” So John is placing even himself in how he needs to meet this condition of having the blood of Jesus cleanse him from all sin. John says IF we walk in the light… the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. It’s a condition you have to meet. John does not speak in the way that you have suggested. John does not say in 1 John 1:7, those who are genuinely saved or born again WILL walk in the light and the blood of Jesus will naturally continue to cleanse them from all sin. That is something you are implying upon the other verses that does not exist in 1 John 1:7.

Bible Highlighter said:
The rendering of Hebrews 10:14 in the King James Bible sounds like it could also be referring to a believer’s progressive Sanctification being complete in this life (Which is a somewhat closely related to the words “being sanctified” found in Modern Translations). So if you wanted to take the words “for ever” to mean all eternity, Hebrews 10:14 could be read in such a way to refer to sanctification continuing and being complete in this life. For the sacrifice applies even in our action of walking in the light according to 1 John 1:7.

For sanctification does not end with our acceptance of Christ in our Initial Salvation. It continues in Progressive Sanctification of living a holy life life, too.

You said:
The end of progressive sanctification (final sanctification) will become a reality once we are glorified. Believers are still perfected for all time and not temporarily.

This line of thinking runs contrary to Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, and 2 Corinthians 7:1.
 
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robert derrick

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Reconciling Romans 4:2 with James 2:24

Romans 4:2 says:
“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”

James 2:24 says:
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

Romans 4:2 implies that we are not justified by works before God.
Yet, James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not faith alone.

Romans 5:1 makes it clear we are justified by faith.

Romans 5:1 says:
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:”

So what about Romans 4:2 and James 2:24?
Well, I believe Romans 4:2 is referring to how one may seek to be falsely justified by works ALONE without God’s grace through faith (a belief in Jesus as the Savior, and believing the gospel message mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 for salvation).

I say this because Paul asks in Romans 3:1, “what profit is there of circumcision?”
Why would Paul say this?

Well, at the Jerusalem council, the apostles addressed the problem that the Gentile Christians faced involving certain Jews who tried to convince them to be circumcised in order to be saved.

Acts of the Apostles 15:1
“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:5
“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:24
“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

This is why Paul also said:

Galatians 5:2
“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

It wasn’t that circumcision was exactly wrong because Paul had Timothy circumcised (Acts of the Apostles 16:3). The issue was whether one was being circumcised for the purpose of salvation (See again: Acts of the Apostles 15:1). For if a person thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved, they would be making a Law or work the basis for their salvation and not God’s grace through faith in the Savior (which is a process of salvation without the deeds of the law).

This is why Romans 4:9-12 makes a point about when was faith reckoned for righteousness. Was this faith reckoned for righteousness in circumcision or uncircumcision? The point here is that we are first saved by God’s grace and faith is reckoned for righteousness and not by circumcision.

James 2:24 is not referring to being justified by works ALONE without faith or without God’s grace. James 2:24 is describing being justified by works after a believer already has been justified or saved by God’s grace through faith in the Savior Jesus Christ. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James 2:24 is showing us what happens AFTER we are saved by God’s grace. James 2:24 is talking about the Sanctification Process that follows being saved by God’s grace through faith. Romans 4:2 is condemning the idea of being justified by Works ALONE (with no grace or faith in being initially saved). Paul mentions this in Romans 4:2 because of the heresy of those who thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved (See again: Acts of the Apostles 15:1).
Very good. Paul preached against seeking to be justified by works without faith, having been a chief example of such, and James preaches against thinking to be justified without works.

Now let the dead faith alone crowd bring out the daggers and pitchforks.
 

robert derrick

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Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Then justification is not by works. Abraham was already justified before offering up Isaac.

Everything sounds really great, until they slip in their self-justifying words of their own faith.

No man is already justified by faith only, before and apart from doing the word.

Except they be justifying themselves apart from works, so that when they are sinning again for the devil, they think themselves still justified by Christ, because they believe it.
 

Bible Highlighter

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Bible Highlighter said:
Hebrews 10:38 says:
“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.”

You cannot draw back from living by faith if you never had the faith to begin with.

Oh yes you can. Hebrews 10:39 - But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

You underlined the part in Hebrews 10:39 to show that these are not true believers (because they do not beleive), but the verse does not say that those who drew back never believed to begin with. Hebrews 10:39 is merely saying that they did not have a continuous belief to the saving of the soul because they drawed back. You cannot draw back to the believing of the soul if you never believed in the first place. Hebrews 10:26 says if WE willfully sin, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. This “we” is in reference to both the writer of Scripture and those in whom he was writing to. So the writer believes that he can willfully sin and there remains no more sacrifice for sin for him. He does not believe in Positional Righteousness (with the Penalty of Sin removed by a belief alone in Jesus as the Savior) as you do, but the writer believes in conditional righteousness. In addition, Hebrews 10:29 says, “Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” This again does not sound like it is written to the unbeliever sitting on the fence in deciding to accept Christ, but it sounds like it is written to the believer. For it says that this “he” (the person) who was “sanctified” has done something (i.e. done something wrong) despite the Spirit of grace. This then plays a part of drawing back mentioned in Hebrews 10:39. This drawing back is of course drawing back from walking with the Lord and not drawing back from the invitation to accept Jesus Christ. There is nothing in the context to support that this was in reference to unbelievers refusing to accept the invitation of Jesus Christ.

You are attempt here to change the text is a deliberate twist on Scripture that is obvious for any normal reader to see who does not have any bias or presuppositions.

Bible Highlighter said:
But Hebrews 10:26-38 is not the only place in the Bible that talks about falling away. Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Luke 8:11-15
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3.......
You said:
Genuine believers do not permanently fall away and lose their salvation. Your list of 'surface read' verses that lead you to 'type 2 works salvation' and 'self preservation' have already been explained to you multiple times, but as usual, you just don't have eyes to see or ears to hear.

Sorry. That’s not true. You did not explain these verses properly with Scripture let alone explain them multiple times.

You said:
Romans Catholics and other works-salvationists (including LoveGodsWord from CF) continually cite the same verses that you cite with the same interpretation as you, but you still can't see the red flag. 'Surface read' verses 'out of context' remain your achilles heel

And sin and still be saved Salvationists such as yourself also misinterpret the verses I put forth to you. You claim that I am only giving you the surface reading of these verses and they are done so out of context, but you really have not proven that this is so with the Bible. This sounds like an attempt to simply paint a broad brush to not really address the verses that refutes your false sin and still be saved type belief.

I am not a Catholic or a Works ALONE Salvationist. But truth is truth, and the Bible clearly teaches two aspects of salvation. Most like yourself are oblivious to this fact in Scripture (that is plain to see in the Bible). But most tend to look to a denomination like Protestantism to get their teachings vs. searching the Scriptures for themselves with the help of God (by way of prayer).

Currently: You are an Anti-Work Salvationist, and this means you encourage people to not worry about works in relation to salvation. But then you contradict yourself and say that works is evidence of a true saving faith (that is by faith alone). This is your Achilles heel.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Then justification is not by works. Abraham was already justified before offering up Isaac.

Everything sounds really great, until they slip in their self-justifying words of their own faith.

No man is already justified by faith only, before and apart from doing the word.

Except they be justifying themselves apart from works, so that when they are sinning again for the devil, they think themselves still justified by Christ, because they believe it.

I agree that Abraham was justified by works by offering Isaac, and no man (besides his own son) was present to witness his work of offering Isaac but God alone. The lesson of the story is that God was ultimately pleased by such a sacrifice and it was not Isaac or another person who was edified or built up in the faith by Abraham’s test.
 

robert derrick

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I agree that Abraham was justified by works by offering Isaac, and no man (besides his own son) was present to witness his work of offering Isaac but God alone. The lesson of the story is that God was ultimately pleased by such a sacrifice and it was not Isaac or another person who was edified or built up in the faith by Abraham’s test.
Excellent.

I take it this is in answer to the silly teaching, that the faith spoken of in James 2, is not that for salvation and justification, but only for blessing others.

Well done.

There is only one faith of Jesus, both for loving God and loving our neighbors:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


It takes the same faith of Jesus to be saved, to love God, and to love one another.

And of course, James 2 begins with not having the faith of our Lord Jesus with respect of persons, not to mention we are asked if faith alone can save us, not just bless others without doing it.

It is the faith of our Lord Jesus that saves being spoken of, and is at the beginning of the chapter and right smack dab in the middle of the chapter, while they try to prove something else by 'context'.

It is a true fact, that once someone refuses the simple truth of Scripture, then goes about trying to change it into a lie, that all intelligence that Christ lightens every man with, goes right out the window into the air, until they repent, and just believe what is written.
 

mailmandan

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The unprofitable servant is not an unbeliever or fake believer because the Lord in this parable is compared to the Lord our God. For the Lord in this parable is called: “the lord of those servants” (Matthew 25:19). There are servants of God, and servants of the devil. I already explained this to you. In the parable, this servant was not said to be a servant of another master (like the devil) but they were said to be the Lord’s servant.
Again, the children of Israel were called the "Lord’s servants," but they were not all saved.

Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. *In Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Isaiah 43:1 - But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; You are Mine.. 10 You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen..

Nehemiah 1:6 - please let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open, that You may hear the prayer of Your servant which I pray before You now, day and night, for the children of Israel Your servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel which we have sinned against You. Both my father’s house and I have sinned.

Throughout the 4 gospel accounts, Jesus was dealing with Israel and sent the twelve to preach only to Israel. Matthew 10:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called wicked and slothful and an unprofitable servant (Matthew 25:30) who is cast out into outer darkness indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted.

The unprofitable servant was obviously forgiven of their sins by grace thereby making them a servant, but they did not do what the Lord required of them.
False. He was a servant only in the sense of being an Israelite as I already explained. The unprofitable servant's characterization of the master maligns him as a cruel and ruthless opportunist, "reaping and gathering" what he had no right to claim as his own. This lazy so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer. It's obvious that he had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness.

To make your point for Matthew 25 in the “Parable of the Talents”: You pointed to the Israelites who were led out of Egypt (as a whole) in how they were called servants (Leviticus 25:55) and yet you conclude by this that they were never saved because they fell in the wilderness.
Not all of them were saved. Jude 1:5 - In Jude 1:5, we read - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

I don't believe that. I believe they started out saved, but they later lost their salvation in the wilderness (i.e. a barren region, desert like place). How so?
Of course you believe that. So do Roman Catholics, Mormons, Campbellites, Seventh Day Adventists and other works-salvationists. No surprise there.

CONTINUED..
 

mailmandan

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Well, 1 Corinthians 10:1-5 says,
  1. 1 “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
    2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
    3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
    4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
    5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.”​
    In other words, the Israelites are said to have drank of that spiritual Rock and that Rock was Christ. This was in their initial salvation when they were obeying Moses in putting the blood on the doorposts, in being led out of Egypt, and in crossing the red sea. So when they later fell in the wilderness, they were then resisting the Holy Spirit and sinned and departed from the living God.
  1. I noticed that only the KJV says spiritual "meat" in 1 Corinthians 10:3. All other translations that I read say spiritual "food" which was divinely provided manna. This food was provided by the power of God. In regards to verse 4, the rock that Moses struck throughout their journey provided water for them. This still does not mean they were all saved. Hebrews 3:8-10 says, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no initial salvation then a loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

  2. In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which they heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF. *NOT ALL OF THESE ISRAELITES WERE SAVED.*
  1. To a certain point of view, you may be right that all believers should naturally be fruitful, but the question here is: Did they bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (i.e. The type of work that the Lord would find acceptable)? John the Baptist makes it clear that the axe is laid to the root of the tree ready to be cut down if we do not bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (See: Matthew 3:8, and Matthew 3:10). This again was written for our benefit to tell us that we must bring forth fruit (deeds) worthy of repentance (seeking forgiveness with the Lord) otherwise we will be chopped down like a tree.
    Bringing for the fruit worthy of repentance is 'descriptive' of genuine believers, unlike the unprofitable servant who brought forth nothing, but instead buried his talent in the ground. Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. (Matthew 7:17)
  1. Jesus says, “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6). Jesus is not describing false believes and genuine believers here. Jesus is talking to those who will listen to Him. Jesus is talking to us on a conditional basis. Jesus is saying if you abide in Him, you will bring forth much fruit (good deeds). If we do not abide in In Christ, we are cut off like a branch and thrown into the fire to be burned (Which is descriptive of the Lake of Fire). So Jesus is telling us to abide in Him (Which will naturally make us abound in having much fruit). So works are a part of the salvation equation because there is no case whereby a believer can live out their faith in abiding in Christ and be unfruitful and be saved. Works are the evidence and proof you are abiding in the One who is salvation. No “works” means that person is not abiding in Christ and thus they are not saved.
    In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

    Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

    When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

    John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

  2. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith and abiding in Christ, but works are not the essence of faith and they are also not the basis or means by which we obtain or maintain eternal life, so works are not in the equation of salvation through faith, not works.

  3. CONTUINUED..
 

mailmandan

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  1. Jesus says: He that has been forgiven little, loves little (Luke 7:47). So the Pharisees did believe in forgiveness, but they only sought forgiveness over certain things and they did not fully surrender their whole life to God in forgiveness (Hence verses like Luke 18:9-14). The woman who was a sinner that could not stop kissing Jesus’ feet was said to have loved much because she was forgiven much (Luke 7:36-50). This is because she fully surrendered to the Lord of her sinful condition. The Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationist does not do that. They don’t fully surrender all your life to the Lord and live for Him fully. They hold back in doing certain sins in this life (Running contrary to verses like Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, etcetera).
    You continue to remind me of the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector in Luke 18:9-14. Jesus spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others. You continue to attack salvation through faith in Christ alone and base salvation on works, which renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior.

  2. It’s more than just about doing “works.” A believer can do many good works for the Lord, but if they also justify sin or iniquity on some level, then they are going to be told by the Lord Jesus Himself to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin) (Matthew 7:22-23). For there were believers who did wonderful works in His name, and yet they were told to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (Which is sin). This is in context to doing what Jesus says. For in Matthew 7:26-27, Jesus says everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built His house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. The idea here is that one will not be saved if they don’t obey Jesus in what He says. Your belief of saying we must sin again on this side of Heaven and yet you say you will be fruitful falls into the condemnation of our Lord in Matthew 7:22-23 because admitting that you must sin again is to be a worker of iniquity.
    Back to sinless perfection again. :rolleyes: Those who pervert the gospel by teaching salvation by works are not doing what Jesus says and such a person is a fool who built his house upon the sand. Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

    John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

    These many people (who are unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in "their accomplishments/works" to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Sound familiar? Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. Without faith it's impossible to please God. This is why Jesus referred to them as workers of iniquity/lawlessness! They were self righteous, just as ALL who trust in works-righteousness are.

  3. As we read on in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as some would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.

  4. Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

  5. *Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.
Matthew 8:12 says:
“But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
In Matthew 8:12 we read: But the "children/subjects of the kingdom" will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Being "children/subjects of the kingdom" did not mean they were saved. This term refers to those to whom the kingdom rightfully belongs. The natural claim to that kingdom had been given to the JEWS. Matthew 25 is being addressed to JEWS. These were children of the kingdom only in an external sense, just as this third servant in the parable of the unprofitable servant was a servant to his master only in an external sense.

There are false servants in scripture (2 Corinthians 11:15) just as there are false apostles (2 Corinthians 11:13) and false brethren (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4) and false disciples in scripture (John 6:66) as well. Does the fact that Judas Iscariot was referred to as a "disciple" (John 12:4) and was given the money box (John 13:29) mean that he was saved? Jesus said that he is a devil! (John 6:70) Jesus also said he is unclean. (John 13:10-11) Judas was an unbeliever who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64) Those who are TRULY His disciple continue (John 8:31). In John 6:64 we read that Jesus knows from the beginning who the true BELIEVERS are. There are many people who identify themselves with Christ. Some are true believers yet there are many make believers.

Not sure what site you copy and paste your material from, but it makes it difficult to respond to individual paragraphs from your posts.
 

mailmandan

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I agree that Abraham was justified by works by offering Isaac, and no man (besides his own son) was present to witness his work of offering Isaac but God alone. The lesson of the story is that God was ultimately pleased by such a sacrifice and it was not Isaac or another person who was edified or built up in the faith by Abraham’s test.
I see that you and robert derrick are in agreement here (which explains a lot!) and neither one of you have figured out that in James 2:21, James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous and that the accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the 'sense' in which Abraham was 'justified by works.' He was shown to be righteous.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Your remaining posts are just the same copy and pasted repetitive nonsense that culminates in "type 2 works salvation" and "sinless perfection" so I'm not even going to bother wasting anymore of my time beating a dead horse. I do hope and pray that one day you will finally accept the truth.
 

Bible Highlighter

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I noticed that only the KJV says spiritual "meat" in 1 Corinthians 10:3. All other translations that I read say spiritual "food" which was divinely provided manna. This food was provided by the power of God.

Meat is not an inaccurate rendering. It is simply an archaic word that meant food in general.

full


Source:
King James Bible Dictionary - Reference List - Meat

The Israelites were also given quail because they demanded meat (and were displeased with just eating manna).

You said:
In regards to verse 4, the rock that Moses struck throughout their journey provided water for them. This still does not mean they were all saved.

Again, 1 Corinthians 10:4 says that they drank of that spiritual rock and that rock WAS CHRIST. Verse 4 also says that they did all drink the same spiritual drink. SPIRITUAL DRINK. So it was not just the physical water only they drank of. They drank of Christ (the ROCK) which means they were once Initially saved.

You said:
Hebrews 3:8-10 says, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no initial salvation then a loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

No. In Hebrews 3:10 in the AMPC says, “And so I was provoked (displeased and sorely grieved) with that generation, and said, They always err and are led astray in their hearts, and they have not perceived or recognized My ways and become progressively better and more experimentally and intimately acquainted with them.”

This means that the Israelites did not progress or mature to know His ways. A baby starting out does not have knowledge.

The exhortation that flies over your head is this:

13 “But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;” (Hebrews 10:13-14).

You don’t believe we can be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin in relation to HOLDING the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end (Whereby we are made partakers of Christ). You don’t have to be exhorted to HOLD from the beginning of your confidence in Christ in believing in Him because you believe a genuine saved believer will always be a partaker. You don’t believe that the Israelites falling in the wilderness is an example to us to not make the same mistake they did. So the author of Hebrews bringing up the Israelites falling in the wilderness by the deceitfulness of sin is a pointless example to even bring up if your belief is true. Why even mention the Israelites in exhorting us to hold our beginning confidence in the Lord and doing so all the way until the end (and so as not to be deceived but deceitfulness of sin)? It says harden not your hearts by the deceitfulness of sin. Why? Because one can go down the same road that the Israelites went. They started off good, but they did not hold the confidence steadfast unto the end. They did not continue with the LORD. This is what you cannot see in the text (of course).

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
You cannot depart from Pittsburg airport if you were are not in Pittsburg airport.
They departed from the living GOD because they drank of that spiritual drink or spiritual rock that was Christ.

You said:
In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which they heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF. *NOT ALL OF THESE ISRAELITES WERE SAVED.*

This is referring to the later Jews (during the time of Jesus and His apostles), and not the Israelites (during the time of the Exodus) who drank of that spiritual Rock who was Christ.

You said:
Bringing for the fruit worthy of repentance is 'descriptive' of genuine believers, unlike the unprofitable servant who brought forth nothing, but instead buried his talent in the ground. Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. (Matthew 7:17)
In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Jesus does not have to because there are plenty of other verses on falling away.

You said:
Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

This is the problem. You simply blindly latch on to what men say vs. just reading and believing what the Bible says.
Remember, you were the one who criticized me for believing the surface meaning of Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, and 2 Corinthians 7:1.
Basically, you are saying that the surface reading of these verses cannot be true. I believe you don’t like what they say, and so you attempt to twist or change them to fit your presuppositional belief.

As for Judas: He was once saved, and later lost his salvation.

Check out the verses in this thread here at CF.

Judas was once saved and lost it...

You said:
When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

Believers throughout all time had to abide in Christ in order to have eternal life (See 1 John 5:12).
The gift of the Holy Spirit was something unique to the New Covenant, though.

You said:
Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith and abiding in Christ, but works are not the essence of faith and they are also not the basis or means by which we obtain or maintain eternal life, so works are not in the equation of salvation through faith, not works.

CONTUINUED..

Yes, works are a part of eternal life. 1 John 1:7 is just one of many proofs of this. If you walk in the light, … the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. You cannot be cleansed of all sin without walking in the light. Of course you say this will be a thing descriptive of all believers, as if they are forced against their will to walk in the light or they are mindless puppets to walk in the light and cannot help it. But this notion is false because even you admit that believers have free will to sin. God’s will is for no believer to sin because sin is contrary to God’s goodness and holiness. But of course you distort 1 John 1:8 and other verses to justify sin.
 
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mailmandan

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Meat is not an inaccurate rendering. It is simply an archaic word that meant food in general.

full

Source:
King James Bible Dictionary - Reference List - Meat

The Israelites were also given quail because they demanded meat (and were displeased with just eating manna).

Again, 1 Corinthians 10:4 says that they drank of that spiritual rock and that rock WAS CHRIST. Verse 4 also says that they did all drink the same spiritual drink. SPIRITUAL DRINK. So it was not just the physical water only they drank of. They drank of Christ (the ROCK) which means they were once Initially saved.

No. In Hebrews 3:10 in the AMPC says, “And so I was provoked (displeased and sorely grieved) with that generation, and said, They always err and are led astray in their hearts, and they have not perceived or recognized My ways and become progressively better and more experimentally and intimately acquainted with them.”

This means that the Israelites did not progress or mature to know His ways. A baby starting out does not have knowledge.

The exhortation that flies over your head is this:

13 “But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;” (Hebrews 10:13-14).

You don’t believe we can be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin in relation to HOLDING the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end (Whereby we are made partakers of Christ). You don’t have to be exhorted to HOLD from the beginning of your confidence in Christ in believing in Him because you believe a genuine saved believer will always be a partaker. You don’t believe that the Israelites falling in the wilderness is an example to us to not make the same mistake they did. So the author of Hebrews bringing up the Israelites falling in the wilderness by the deceitfulness of sin is a pointless example to even bring up if your belief is true. Why even mention the Israelites in exhorting us to hold our beginning confidence in the Lord and doing so all the way until the end (and so as not to be deceived but deceitfulness of sin)? It says harden not your hearts by the deceitfulness of sin. Why? Because one can go down the same road that the Israelites went. They started off good, but they did not hold the confidence steadfast unto the end. They did not continue with the LORD. This is what you cannot see in the text (of course).

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
You cannot depart from Pittsburg airport if you were are not in Pittsburg airport.
They departed from the living GOD because they drank of that spiritual drink or spiritual rock that was Christ.

This is referring to the later Jews (during the time of Jesus and His apostles), and not the Israelites (during the time of the Exodus) who drank of that spiritual Rock who was Christ.

Jesus does not have to because there are plenty of other verses on falling away.

This is the problem. You simply blindly latch on to what men say vs. what just reading and believing what the Bible says.
Remember, you were the one who criticized me for believing the surface meaning of Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, and 2 Corinthians 7:1.
Basically, you are saying that the surface reading of these verses cannot be true. I believe you don’t like what they say, and so you attempt to twist or change them to fit your presuppositional belief.

As for Judas: He was once saved, and later lost his salvation.

Check out the verses in this thread here at CF.

Judas was once saved and lost it...



Believers throughout all time had to abide in Christ in order to have eternal life (See 1 John 5:12).
The gift of the Holy Spirit was something unique to the New Covenant, though.



Yes, works are a part of eternal life. 1 John 1:7 is just one of many proofs of this. If you walk in the light, … the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. You cannot be cleansed of all sin without walking in the light. Of course you say this will be a thing descriptive of all believers, as if they are forced against their will to walk in the light or they are mindless puppets to walk in the light and cannot help it. But this notion is false because even you admit that believers have free will to sin. God’s will is for no believer to sin because sin is contrary to God’s goodness and holiness. But of course you distort 1 John 1:8 and other verses to justify sin.
It's painfully obvious that you are not going to accept the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you and once again, I am tired of wasting my time beating a dead horse. Good day sir. Moving on...
 

Bible Highlighter

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You continue to remind me of the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector in Luke 18:9-14. Jesus spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others. You continue to attack salvation through faith in Christ alone and base salvation on works, which renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior.

I agree 100% fully with the Tax Collector crying unto God for mercy over his past life of sin and admitting in that moment he was a sinner (Note: This would not be a future declaration that he was to remain as a continuous sinner at times as you falsely teach based on a faulty interpretation on 1 John 1:8). I am even open to the possibility that the Tax Collector could have even struggled with sin, and he was confessing it to the Lord with the desire to overcome it by the Lord’s help. So I do believe strongly in God’s grace. For without grace, we could not even do a good work. A person’s past slate of sin needs to be wiped out. I believe the Jews sought forgiveness with God, but only over certain sins and not over all of their sins. This is why Jesus said he that has been forgiven little loves little (See: Luke 7:47). The Pharisee did not fully surrender to God over all his sins like the Tax Collector was doing. The Pharisee was boasting in good things he was doing, but he obviously had sin that he was not confessing. He also was boasting in how he was better than the Tax Collector. Believers are nothing. Christ is everything. It is only by Christ’s grace that we can even stand and do anything. You see grace as a license to sin on a small level because…

#1. You declare you must sin again in the future on some level based on your supporting the idea that believers will always sin this side of Heaven, and based on a faulty interpretation on 1 John 1:8.
#2. You believe that a believer who goes prodigal into a life of sin is saved. This is deceptive because how long can one be prodigal? Can a believer go prodigal their whole life?
#3. If George Sodini was still alive, you two would definitely buddy up together because he sung similar words that you did. Granted, George Sodini is a Hyper Grace believer and he murdered a bunch of people, and he took his own life. In his suicide letter he said he was not saved by works and he was saved by a belief alone in Jesus.


Granted, you are not Hyper Grace, but the problem is that you both sound similar in many ways, and you would have a hard time recognizing him for what he truly believed (Especially if he was clever with his words).

You said:
Back to sinless perfection again. :rolleyes:

I am not sure if you are saying this to intentionally falsely accuse me of something I don’t believe, or because you simply did not read my many words telling you that I don’t believe Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue.

Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue.
Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue.
Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue.
Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue.
Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue.
Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue.

How many times do I have to keep saying it before it sinks in?
You are only embarrassing yourself because I told you this many times before.
Believers DO have to meet the bare minimum level requirement for holy living after they are saved by God’s grace to enter the Kingdom. Sinless Perfection is going BEYOND meeting the bare minimum level requirement of living holy to enter the Kingdom. Not all sin is the same. There are sins unto death, and sins not unto death (1 John 5:16) (See also: Matthew 5:22 in the AMP Translation).

You said:
Those who pervert the gospel by teaching salvation by works are not doing what Jesus says and such a person is a fool who built his house upon the sand. Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Wow. Really? Is that how you twist Jesus’ words?
First, nowhere does the Bible tell you to believe on the finished work of the cross whereby it gives you diplomatic immunity against all forms of sin.
Second, Jesus did not only teach grace like in Luke 18:9-14, but Jesus taught how we must live holy in our actions or we will not make into the Kingdom of Heaven (See: Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (Luke 10:25-28).

You said:
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

Uh, remember, in that same chapter there were disciples who stopped following Jesus. So if they walked away in following Jesus, and they just believed on him for salvation, they would be saved?

Matthew 16:25 says,
“For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.”
 
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Bible Highlighter

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These many people (who are unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in "their accomplishments/works" to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Sound familiar? Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. Without faith it's impossible to please God. This is why Jesus referred to them as workers of iniquity/lawlessness! They were self righteous, just as ALL who trust in works-righteousness are.

No. That’s not the point Jesus was making. No such words exist in Matthew 7 that defends this false belief of yours.
Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit in the same chapter.
They did wonderful works, but they also justified sin was the lesson of what we should not do in Matthew 7:22-23.
There is no mention of trusting in Christ alone while not worrying about sin or iniquity. Jesus told these believers to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin). Your belief justifies sin based on a false interpretation of 1 John 1:8.

You said:
As we read on in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as some would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.

Jesus says whoever does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand. Jesus told us more than just trusting in His grace, but He gave us warnings about sin, and in living holy, too. But of course you ignore these warnings to your own destruction because sinning a little while under grace is more comforting to you.

You said:
Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

You are totally mixed up and backwards. After one is saved by God’s grace, to obey Jesus according to His Word is not self righteousness. Self righteousness is when a person creates their own rules of morality or righteousness. The Pharisees had traditions that were purely made up that attempted to make them appear righteous. That is self righteousness. Doing what God tells you to do is not self righteousness.

You said:
*Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.
In Matthew 8:12 we read: But the "children/subjects of the kingdom" will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Being "children/subjects of the kingdom" did not mean they were saved. This term refers to those to whom the kingdom rightfully belongs. The natural claim to that kingdom had been given to the JEWS. Matthew 25 is being addressed to JEWS. These were children of the kingdom only in an external sense, just as this third servant in the parable of the unprofitable servant was a servant to his master only in an external sense.

The Bible teaches that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). The Bible teaches that after we are saved by God’s grace without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), we are also saved afterwards in the Sanctification Process by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13) (2 Thessalonians 2:13). But of course you ignore or twist these verses to your own destruction.

You said:
There are false servants in scripture (2 Corinthians 11:15) just as there are false apostles (2 Corinthians 11:13) and false brethren (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4) and false disciples in scripture (John 6:66) as well. Does the fact that Judas Iscariot was referred to as a "disciple" (John 12:4) and was given the money box (John 13:29) mean that he was saved? Jesus said that he is a devil! (John 6:70) Jesus also said he is unclean. (John 13:10-11) Judas was an unbeliever who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64) Those who are TRULY His disciple continue (John 8:31). In John 6:64 we read that Jesus knows from the beginning who the true BELIEVERS are. There are many people who identify themselves with Christ. Some are true believers yet there are many make believers.

Again, the parable of the Talents does not reveal whether or not this servant was the servant of another master (like Satan). To read that into the text is simply inserting something in Scripture that it does not say.

As for Judas being called a disciple and yet he was also said to be a devil (in that point in time) is something that is revealed to us in Scripture. Matthew 25 does not reveal that the unprofitable servant was never saved at any point or that they were secretly the servant of another master. That’s an addition to Scripture that you have to make that does not exist in the text.

You said:
Not sure what site you copy and paste your material from, but it makes it difficult to respond to individual paragraphs from your posts.

Sorry to disappoint. Everything that I have written to you yesterday was from all of my own writings, dear sir.
 

Bible Highlighter

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@mailmandan

As for your claim that the children of the kingdom being cast into outer darkness in Matthew 8:12 is in reference to unsaved people only:

The Bible says:

“….the good seed are the children of the kingdom;” (Matthew 13:38).

So this means that they were good seed at one point in time (in their initial salvation), and they later are cast out because they justified sin or false doctrines. They started off good, but ended badly. In life, we can start off good in doing something, and end up later doing badly in things. We as believers must be vigilant to hold to the confidence from the beginning stedfast unto the end and not let the deceitfulness of sin harden our hearts.
 

Bible Highlighter

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I see that you and robert derrick are in agreement here (which explains a lot!) and neither one of you have figured out that in James 2:21, James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous and that the accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the 'sense' in which Abraham was 'justified by works.' He was shown to be righteous.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Your remaining posts are just the same copy and pasted repetitive nonsense that culminates in "type 2 works salvation" and "sinless perfection" so I'm not even going to bother wasting anymore of my time beating a dead horse. I do hope and pray that one day you will finally accept the truth.

Look. If I showed you my faith by my works, this means works is a part of my faith. This is why Paul says there is a work of faith in his writings (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11). Also, the same word justified is used for both faith and works in James 2:24. Of course you ignored this point many times (despite my exhortation to you on it).