New Covenant only for Jews?

Ronald Nolette said:

1.The tree is not Israel. It is a place of blessing for Israel (Jesus) and we have been grafted onto that. the bible does not call itr an "Israeli tree". But you know that

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Not so. The cultivated olive tree consists of “natural branches” – which represent Israel (God’s Old Testament covenant people). But because of unbelief many of them were cut out of their own tree. The very fact that they are called “natural branches” shows us that they characterize the original cultivated olive tree. The Gentiles in this illustration, described as “the olive tree which is wild by nature,” are shown to become partakers of the lifeblood of true believing Israel. Amazingly, Gentiles, that were once enemies of Israel, have nigh by faith become integral to and synonymous with Israel.

2. We have been brought nigh (near) we are not Jews. We are not spiritual or physical Jews we are saved gentiles who are on with the Jews in teh body of Christ.

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Stop fighting the inspired wording. We are the true children of Abraham, not ethnic Israel. We are the children of promise, not ethnic Israel. We are true Israeli citizens, not ethnic Israel. We are the circumcision, not ethnic Israel. We are the spiritual Jews, not ethnic Israel. Those who are part of this symbolic tree enjoy a common spiritual identity that is reflected in a new type of citizenship. It is a spiritual citizenship that is heaven-centered which only believers can enjoy. This symbolic tree represents the Israel of God from throughout the nations – the only Israel God recognizes. No unbeliever is part of it because partaking in its blessing and sustenance comes through the exercise of faith. This joining of Jews and Gentiles together fulfilled many of the promises Abraham received about the nations being blessed in him (Genesis 12:1-3, 17:3-8, 17:15-16, 18:18 and 22:16-18).

The whole thrust here is showing the supernatural change of status that occurred to the believing Gentiles through trusting in Christ and His shed blood on the cross. These darkened Gentiles went from being “aliens, “strangers” and “foreigners” to being “fellowcitizens” in the Israel of God. They went from being “afar off” to being “nigh.” This is talking about a spiritual transaction that occurred through the cross.

This passage speaks of God bringing natural Israelis together with natural Gentiles into the exact same standing and privileges. In fact, they are classed in this reading today as “one body” and “one new man.” How can this be? What are the grounds for this union? Is it speaking of a natural or spiritual reality? There can be no doubt by the clarity and straightforwardness of this narrative that Jews and Gentiles are unified together in this passage on the sole grounds of “the blood of Christ.” All sound theologians know, this can only be experienced through conversion. This is man’s only means of cleansing, forgiveness and union with God.

Ronald Nolette said:

3. No it does not say that. That is your failing grammar skills calling it that.

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Once again, you ignore the text and just voice your opinion. Those that would argue that a man’s natural race carries any merit or difference before God when it comes to salvation or that it in any way adds anything to a man’s spiritual status are severely censured by passages like Galatians 6. The reading declares, “And as many as walk according to this rule” (what rule?) – the non-racial new birth experience, – then “peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

The Bible makes clear, only the second birth can create “a new creature” – nothing else. That is why Paul commences by saying, in Galatians 6:16, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature" (Galatians 6:15). Those who subject themselves to this divine decree (namely, giving their life to Christ), will, irrespective of race, experience the peace of God and the mercy of heaven.

The New Testament is constantly reminding us that we are saved alone by grace and not race; and that when we are saved we become one unique spiritual race. The Church in fact is a spiritual nation with it passport stamped in heaven.

We should carefully consider what verse 16 is actually saying, as so many people misinterpret it: “as many as walk according to this rule (that race is irrelevant under the New Testament), peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

This is not telling us that there is a group of Gentile Christians that “walk according to this rule” and then there is another group of Jewish Christians that are called “the Israel of God” (as some argue) who are not subject to this rule. Such an interpretation would totally undo everything the writer has just taught.

The “as many as walk according to this rule” are plainly all believers. If it does refer to all believers then the Futurist argument falls apart in regard to 2 distinct groups here.

God’s people are seen to exclusively be those who submit to this particular rule. The “many” here is not simply Gentiles as Dispies would argue but Jews and Gentiles that have become new creatures in Christ. This non-racial rule, which renders circumcision and uncircumcision of non-avail, and the new creature spiritual experience as everything, is the whole thrust of the teaching. If someone isn’t found under ‘the born again banner’ then they are not God’s. These are the only people that enter heaven (John 3). So if there is another entity outside of the non-racial “many as walk according to this rule” (the new creature rule) it is spurious, regardless of whether it is Israeli or not.

4. YOu should keep that in full context- because it is to show that everyone is guilty and all mouths shut before God. It has nothing to do with one being a spiritual Jew or natural Jew.

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I have showed you previously that we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11).

But that is not what it is saying. You don't need dual circumcision to be a true Jew, it is only spiritual circumcision. The text actually says the opposite to what you are inferring. Nowhere does it say that you must be inwardly and outwardly "circumcised" as you suggest. Please re-read the text. It is not saying what you are saying.

The term “the circumcision” is a New Testament term which refers to the natural offspring of Abraham. It is interchangeable with the terms Israelites, Hebrews or Jews. For example, Acts 10:45 says: “they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

NT Scripture teaches we are “the circumcision” and confirms we are spiritual Jews (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11).

5. Abraham was to be a blessing to all nations. Not just the Jewish nation so yes we are the children of Abraham. but to be a Jew one needs to be a descendant of Abrahm, Isaac, and Jacob!

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Stop fighting the inspired wording. We are the true children of Abraham, not ethnic Israel. We are the children of promise, not ethnic Israel.We are true Israeli citizens, not ethnic Israel. We are the circumcision, not ethnic Israel. We are the spiritual Jews, not ethnic Israel.

I have ably showed you that and you have been unable to disprove that.

The Jews boasted, “Abraham is our father” (John 8:39).

Whereupon Christ responded, “If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it” (vv 39-44).

Here, Christ hits them with the sobering truth. He identifies their true father as the devil. This would have been explosive to these religiously proud Jewish leaders. He advanced “If ye were Abraham's children” speaking in a spiritual sense, and “If God were your Father” also speaking spiritually, “ye would love me.” Here, the evidence of being a true child of Abraham is shown to be ‘loving Christ’. This is Christ’s litmus test of a true child of Abraham and what it is to be part of God’s chosen people.

Romans 9:6-13 explains that: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Paul makes a clear contrast between those who are “the children of the flesh” and those who are “the children of promise.” He shows us that these are two different diverse peoples. In doing this he is attempting to illustrate the impotence of the natural and the potency of the spiritual. He shows that “the children of the flesh” are not “the children of God,” but “the children of the promise.” Natural race carries no special favor. Paul is demonstrating that it is “the children of the promise” that “are counted for the seed.” This spiritual company are the ones that really matter.

You would try and restrict this reference to “the children of the promise” exclusively to natural Jews. But this would be an error. Whilst Abraham’s “children of the flesh” refers exclusively to natural Jews, the allusion to Abraham’s “children of the promise” undoubtedly embraces a spiritual people of all nationalities. After all, Paul is confirming who “the children of God” are here. He is establishing who the real children of Abraham are. He concludes: “the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” It would be exegetically wrong here, and contrary to repeated Scripture, to limit this discussion to natural Jews – saved and unsaved. The reason being Paul is showing us who the spiritual children of Abraham really are. Whoever they are Paul says that they are “counted for the seed.”

Ronald Nolette said:

6. so to you the old Jerusalem had not gentiles in it? We are for teh heaqvenly Jerusalem and the heavenly Mount Zion! that does not make us Jews anymore than Esau is a Jew.

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Revelation 11:8 explicitly states, “the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”

This description was definitely not intended to be a commendation of Jerusalem but to describe it for exactly what it was/is. Many modern pro-Israel commentators today would probably throw the charge of anti-Semitic at such a charge, however, this charge comes from Christ.

This portrayal is in full keeping with what Paul taught of the earthly Jerusalem in Galatians 4:22-33 tells of two types of children of Abraham: “it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”

The whole discourse here focuses in on identifying what is of God and what is not, especially in regard to Abraham’s descendants. The dividing factor comes down to: men are either “born after the flesh” or “born after the Spirit.” This has always been the case from the beginning. Race or physical birthright was never the determining feature when it came to blessing. It was instead spiritual vitality. After all, both of these boys were biological children of Abraham. But the difference between them was that Isaac was a child of promise and Ishmael was not. Those who are merely born naturally (regardless of their race), or who have only experienced one birth, are of the devil, those who have experienced a second birth – a spiritual conversion, belong to God. The writer demonstrates how natural ancestry means nothing, even if your blood father was Abraham himself.

Ronald Nolette said:

Math is math and genetics is genetics.

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Of course. And no person on earth has ever been educated and credentialed in both disciplines, because trying to compartmentalize them has always resulted in fatal schizophrenia.

Dispensational futurism.

An arrogant fantasy.

An ignorant fallacy.

Ronald Nolette said:

Scripture that proves this???? Dna is information- not action.

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How about "saved vs. unsaved". Does that help?


Acid is a noun.

Faith is a noun.

Obedience is a noun.

So nouns are action in df land?

covenantee said:

Of course. And no person on earth has ever been educated and credentialed in both disciplines, because trying to compartmentalize them has always resulted in fatal schizophrenia.

Dispensational futurism.

An arrogant fantasy.

An ignorant fallacy.

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Care to provide evidence or are you just going to fling accusations and then move on.

and being a dispensationalist has no bearing on the article you cited.

But as to you rmathematicians- they are not geneticists and simply plugged an algorithm in . If all the coefficvients are 100% accurate as to teh reality of human gentics then their answer is right, but if they plug in assumptions (which all do) then their answer is oncorrect by a factor of X

covenantee said:

Acid is a noun.

Faith is a noun.

Obedience is a noun.

So nouns are action in df land?

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obedience is derived from a verb so it is an action noun But it is still not some spiritual DNA- you have yet to show the verses that support your hypothesis.

Paul Malcomson said:

You totally sidestepped what I was talking about and changed subject. This is typical with Dispensationalism. You then cobble Scripture to support your error. There is no Scripture that teaches your doctrine. I suspect you know that by your avoidance.

Dispensationalists typically present the New Testament ekklesia as a brand-new spiritual innovation, which had no origin prior to Pentecost. They teach that the Church itself is a “mystery” and that it is a completely separate entity to God’s people in the Old Testament. They say, because the New Testament Church is expressly called “the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God” that it is a brand-new construction started in the upper room. They contend that the Apostle Paul was specifically and specially tasked with revealing this great mystery.

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Wrong again. The church is brand new at Pentecost. That is why Jesus spoke of building it in the future tense. Teh bible treats it as separate sop we should as well!

I do not know who the "they" are But Paul is called the Apostl;e to the Gentiles and Peter teh Apostle to th eJews, so I simply take God at His word.

Paul Malcomson said:

What they miss, or deliberately distort, is that Paul was actually teaching the complete opposite to what they assert. Ephesians 3:1-9 tells us: “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

The debate is not over whether the ekklesia was some new innovation or whether it has replaced Israel or not (because it hasn’t) but rather, (1) is the new covenant congregation of God’s people spiritually connected to the old covenant congregation of God’s people and (2) do believing Gentiles after the cross enjoy an equal status with believing Jews?

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Wrong again ! Paul revealed exactly what he wrote! That the church (the bride of Christ) was a secret (musterion) in teh OT. Namely that Jew and Gentile IN CHRIST are now fellow heirs and one body. You forget that OT& Israel is the wife of Yahweh while the church is the bride of christ. If you knew the difference between a wife and bride you would know the church is a new thing.
Paul showedin ephesians that teh law kept gentiles as gentiles out of worship. Even the converts had an inferior position in Israel.

But you pulled an old ploy. Accuse me of the very thing youy are guilty of.

I gave you many verses and to one word from you.

and what is the connection between teh old congregation and the new? Not the law, not circumcison according to Abraham. Other than being saved- what connects the two? And show form Scripture.

Paul Malcomson said:

The mystery regarding the congregation is not that it was unknown to the Old Testament prophets, but rather that believing Gentiles were integrated into the believing congregation on an equal footing (as fellow heirs) as existing Jewish believers. Dispensationalists fail to see that the ekklesia is not a New Testament novelty introduced at Pentecost but an ongoing spiritual organism that has contained the elect of God from the very beginning.

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Wrong again. You speak a truth to introduce much opinion. It is new because it was not practiced in teh OLD. It is new because teh Holy Spirit never baptized in the old. People were not born again or made new creatures in the old. There is no scripture that shows that! Period. comment on that if you will. Why would Jesus use the future tense if the church was already established? Covenant theology has destroyed your ability to uinderstand basic grammar created by god!

Paul Malcomson said:

Thomas Croskery explains in his in-depth classic research from 1879: “Though the prophets foretold that the Gentiles were to be blessed in Abraham, it was not made known to them in what manner the blessing was to be realized. This was the special revelation to which the apostle alludes when he speaks of the dispensation committed to himself as the apostle to the Gentiles.”

He adds: “we, of this dispensation, were to be incorporated into the ‘one commonwealth’, from which we were alienated, into the ‘one body’, the ‘one household’, the ‘one building fitly framed together’. The mystery was the admission of Gentiles to share on equal terms with the Jews all the blessings purchased by Christ” (Plymouth-Brethrenism: A Refutation of Its Principles and Doctrines).

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He sounds like a dispensationalist. But He is not Scripture. Teh one body is the body of christ. We have been added onto the vine not teh Israel branch.

YOu intentionally ignore the fact that where we are grafted is into Jesus, not Israel.

Mike Tang 1991 said:

Why does it say the "New Covenant" Jesus made is only for the Jews?

Hebrews 8:8 - But God found fault with the people and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

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cos that’s who it starts with

but Christ is savior / redeemer of all men
Lk 2:10-11
Jn 1:49
Jn 3:16 whosoever that means all

Paul Malcomson said:

Stop fighting the inspired wording. We are the true children of Abraham, not ethnic Israel. We are the children of promise, not ethnic Israel. We are true Israeli citizens, not ethnic Israel. We are the circumcision, not ethnic Israel. We are the spiritual Jews, not ethnic Israel. Those who are part of this symbolic tree enjoy a common spiritual identity that is reflected in a new type of citizenship. It is a spiritual citizenship that is heaven-centered which only believers can enjoy. This symbolic tree represents the Israel of God from throughout the nations – the only Israel God recognizes. No unbeliever is part of it because partaking in its blessing and sustenance comes through the exercise of faith. This joining of Jews and Gentiles together fulfilled many of the promises Abraham received about the nations being blessed in him (Genesis 12:1-3, 17:3-8, 17:15-16, 18:18 and 22:16-18).

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I do not fight the Inspired Word of God. Yes, we are children of Abraham by faith!! I agree 100% But being a child of Abraham does not make on a spiritual Jew! Ishmael was a child of Abraham and He is not Jewish! For one to be a Jew opne has to be a child of Abrahm, Isaac and Jacob!

ethnic Israel are jews! they are beloved for the father's sake and the covenant's sake. There is no term "spiritual Israel" i the bible! But spiritual Israel are teh saved children of Abraham, Isaac and jacob!

The olive tree represents Christ! in Romans 11. OT Israel was Gods wife! New Testament church is jesus espoused. we are not even married to him yet.

ehtnic Israel will be rewed to teh Father as is prophesied.

but once again: an ehtnic Jew is not automatically saved. They must trust in Messiah! If not they are lost forever. OT Israel and Tribulation Israel have different destiny and roles than the church in teh millenial kingdom. That is why Paul constantly contrasts both as does Jesus! For eternity- no one knows.

It appears you deny a dispensational view of Sripture (simp;ly god governed differently in different times- always on teh basis of grace by faith though) So you cannot see th emillenial kingdom, you must transfer teh promises made to ethnic Israel to the church and deny Gopd has a place for ehtnic Israel in the future, according to just the few of the verses I cited among the scores that clearly, plainly and unambiguously show God has a different plan for the Jews who are outside of the Body of Christ. If yo could produce one verse that says OT ISrael is pat of the bride of christ and that what happened at Pentecost occurred throughout creation, you win. But you have to take a verse and redefine it and spiritualize it to make it say what you want instead of what God declared!

Paul Malcomson said:

Revelation 11:8 explicitly states, “the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”

This description was definitely not intended to be a commendation of Jerusalem but to describe it for exactly what it was/is. Many modern pro-Israel commentators today would probably throw the charge of anti-Semitic at such a charge, however, this charge comes from Christ.

This portrayal is in full keeping with what Paul taught of the earthly Jerusalem in Galatians 4:22-33 tells of two types of children of Abraham: “it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”

The whole discourse here focuses in on identifying what is of God and what is not, especially in regard to Abraham’s descendants. The dividing factor comes down to: men are either “born after the flesh” or “born after the Spirit.” This has always been the case from the beginning. Race or physical birthright was never the determining feature when it came to blessing. It was instead spiritual vitality. After all, both of these boys were biological children of Abraham. But the difference between them was that Isaac was a child of promise and Ishmael was not. Those who are merely born naturally (regardless of their race), or who have only experienced one birth, are of the devil, those who have experienced a second birth – a spiritual conversion, belong to God. The writer demonstrates how natural ancestry means nothing, even if your blood father was Abraham himself.

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how do we become these children?

Paul Malcomson said:

Once again, you ignore the text and just voice your opinion. Those that would argue that a man’s natural race carries any merit or difference before God when it comes to salvation or that it in any way adds anything to a man’s spiritual status are severely censured by passages like Galatians 6. The reading declares, “And as many as walk according to this rule” (what rule?) – the non-racial new birth experience, – then “peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

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I never siad it did. That is you redefining what I wrote to lie and smear my words. That rule in Galatians is not the non racist rule and you should know that. Maybe I have given you more credit for knowing the bible than you actually do. The rule is to not walk in the law!

Paul Malcomson said:

The Bible makes clear, only the second birth can create “a new creature” – nothing else. That is why Paul commences by saying, in Galatians 6:16, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature" (Galatians 6:15). Those who subject themselves to this divine decree (namely, giving their life to Christ), will, irrespective of race, experience the peace of God and the mercy of heaven.

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And I said this many times in our conversation. Are you reminding yourself? I think you are debating me but thinking of other peoples thoughts in answering me. Cuz so far I don't disagree in this particular response of yours.

Paul Malcomson said:

The New Testament is constantly reminding us that we are saved alone by grace and not race; and that when we are saved we become one unique spiritual race. The Church in fact is a spiritual nation with it passport stamped in heaven.

We should carefully consider what verse 16 is actually saying, as so many people misinterpret it: “as many as walk according to this rule (that race is irrelevant under the New Testament), peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

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Wrong again. If race was an issue then Gentiles are hopeless! But race is not an issue in the body of christ- all have equal access. a saved gentile is a spiritual gneitle and a saved Jew is a spiritual Jew formed into one body.

Paul Malcomson said:

But that is not what it is saying. You don't need dual circumcision to be a true Jew, it is only spiritual circumcision. The text actually says the opposite to what you are inferring. Nowhere does it say that you must be inwardly and outwardly "circumcised" as you suggest. Please re-read the text. It is not saying what you are saying.

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No you suugest it by force onto me, so you can create a strawman and beat that strawman. I do not believe in gentile circumcision, but Jews are still required to be circumcised- not for salvation or special favcor, but to obey the command God gave to every generation of ethnic Israel. Even Messianic congregations hold this. Not all, but many do.

Paul Malcomson said:

This is not telling us that there is a group of Gentile Christians that “walk according to this rule” and then there is another group of Jewish Christians that are called “the Israel of God” (as some argue) who are not subject to this rule. Such an interpretation would totally undo everything the writer has just taught.

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Are you really that ignortant of simple basic grammar? Now you are just spouting verbal methane. No one is saying that nor suggesting it here. Stop acting like a second grader as far as grammar and innuendos go.

Paul Malcomson said:

Here, Christ hits them with the sobering truth. He identifies their true father as the devil. This would have been explosive to these religiously proud Jewish leaders. He advanced “If ye were Abraham's children” speaking in a spiritual sense, and “If God were your Father” also speaking spiritually, “ye would love me.” Here, the evidence of being a true child of Abraham is shown to be ‘loving Christ’. This is Christ’s litmus test of a true child of Abraham and what it is to be part of God’s chosen people.

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Yes and????????? These were unsaved. Why do you keep arguing against something I never wrote here??????

Paul Malcomson said:

Paul makes a clear contrast between those who are “the children of the flesh” and those who are “the children of promise.” He shows us that these are two different diverse peoples. In doing this he is attempting to illustrate the impotence of the natural and the potency of the spiritual. He shows that “the children of the flesh” are not “the children of God,” but “the children of the promise.” Natural race carries no special favor. Paul is demonstrating that it is “the children of the promise” that “are counted for the seed.” This spiritual company are the ones that really matter.

You would try and restrict this reference to “the children of the promise” exclusively to natural Jews. But this would be an error. Whilst Abraham’s “children of the flesh” refers exclusively to natural Jews, the allusion to Abraham’s “children of the promise” undoubtedly embraces a spiritual people of all nationalities. After all, Paul is confirming who “the children of God” are here. He is establishing who the real children of Abraham are. He concludes: “the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” It would be exegetically wrong here, and contrary to repeated Scripture, to limit this discussion to natural Jews – saved and unsaved. The reason being Paul is showing us who the spiritual children of Abraham really are. Whoever they are Paul says that they are “counted for the seed.”

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Wow how wrong can you be !!!! If you kept this in context and read this with your eyes open and paying attnetion to what is written you would not sound like one unlearned in Scripture!

Romans 9_11 Paul gives an apologetic clearly showing that God has not abandoned ethnic Israel, but has temporarily cast them aside to bring in the gentiles. But once again children of Abraham are not the children of promise, but children of Abraham, Isaac and Isaac's seed Jacob or Israel. You are so used to redefining what god has said, you can no longer see the forest for your allegorical trees.

Paul Malcomson said:

Revelation 11:8 explicitly states, “the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”

This description was definitely not intended to be a commendation of Jerusalem but to describe it for exactly what it was/is. Many modern pro-Israel commentators today would probably throw the charge of anti-Semitic at such a charge, however, this charge comes from Christ.

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Rabbit trail. I was speaking of New Jerusalem. why you threw this in here I suspect is to distract and divert.

Paul Malcomson said:

The whole discourse here focuses in on identifying what is of God and what is not, especially in regard to Abraham’s descendants. The dividing factor comes down to: men are either “born after the flesh” or “born after the Spirit.” This has always been the case from the beginning. Race or physical birthright was never the determining feature when it came to blessing. It was instead spiritual vitality. After all, both of these boys were biological children of Abraham. But the difference between them was that Isaac was a child of promise and Ishmael was not. Those who are merely born naturally (regardless of their race), or who have only experienced one birth, are of the devil, those who have experienced a second birth – a spiritual conversion, belong to God. The writer demonstrates how natural ancestry means nothing, even if your blood father was Abraham himself.

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Quit changing the subject! We have not been talking soteriology, but the new covenant is exclusively for the Jews! YOu have thrown several pages of stuff that is not relavent to the topic to divert that you have as yet refused to answer the basic question I have posed to you.

If the New Coivenant as spelled out in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is for gentiles as well as ethnic Jews, and has been fulfilled, show it from history!

YTOu want to talk about earthly Jerusalem ( which is Gods footstool BTW) and heavenly Jerusalme, start a new threaqd.

If you don't know th edifference betwewen teh children of Abraham, and the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob- you need to learn more from teh bible.

Ronald Nolette said:

ehtnic Israel will be rewed to teh Father as is prophesied.

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Ronald Nolette said:

Wrong again. If race was an issue then Gentiles are hopeless! But race is not an issue in the body of christ- all have equal access. a saved gentile is a spiritual gneitle and a saved Jew is a spiritual Jew formed into one body.

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Your beliefs lead you to make hopeless contradictions!
No scripture tells of a general Jewish redemption. Zechariah 12:11-14 only mentions a few Jewish families. Romans 9:27 says that only a Jewish remnant will survive.

Your insistence on grammar in Galatians 6:16, is rich coming from you. It is actually unpleasant to read your mis spelled and confused posts.
The context of all of Galatians, proves that Paul means that the faithful Christian peoples ARE the Israelites of God.

Ronald Nolette said:

Teh "as many as walk..." is to gentile believers. Why? Because Paul showed by adding the connective "kai" (and) which in every language shows another person, place or thing is being discussed. INI Galatians the second is a group of people-the Israel of god, which are not part of the as many as walk crowd. Paul is teaching the gentiles in Galatia who are believers that there are two types of Jew or Israeli in the world, natural Israel, which are the ones who were troubling Israel and the Israel of God, fellow believers in messiah who are Jewish.

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2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj

"c. it joins to partitive words the general notion; so that it is equivalent to and in general, and in a word, in short: ὁ Πέτρος καί οἱ ἀπόστολοι, Acts 5:29; οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς (καί οἱ πρεσβύτεροι Rec.) καί τό συνέδριον ὅλον, Matthew 26:59; καί δικαιώμασι σαρκός, Hebrews 9:10 Rec. Tr brackets WH marginal reading; καί ἐπί τόν Ἰσραήλ τοῦ Θεοῦ, Galatians 6:16"

Sorry, but I'll take Bros. Strong and Thayer's Greek over yours.

Every time.

Ronald Nolette said:

Paul showedin ephesians that teh law kept gentiles as gentiles out of worship. Even the converts had an inferior position in Israel.

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Patent df racism.

God's Covenants always were, and are, extended equally and impartially to all who through the spiritual DNA of faith and obedience, complied and comply with His Covenant conditions.

Except to df racism, there was nothing inferior about these Gentiles, or any faithful obedient Gentiles anywhere in Scripture:

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

The NT is for the truly born again, for they are the body of Christ Jesus. Race or Religion does not cut it in fact as it never did.
One is with Christ Jesus or against, end of story.

covenantee said:

2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj

"c. it joins to partitive words the general notion; so that it is equivalent to and in general, and in a word, in short: ὁ Πέτρος καί οἱ ἀπόστολοι, Acts 5:29; οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς (καί οἱ πρεσβύτεροι Rec.) καί τό συνέδριον ὅλον, Matthew 26:59; καί δικαιώμασι σαρκός, Hebrews 9:10 Rec. Tr brackets WH marginal reading; καί ἐπί τόν Ἰσραήλ τοῦ Θεοῦ, Galatians 6:16"

Sorry, but I'll take Bros. Strong and Thayer's Greek over yours.

Every time.

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Yuo should take Strong and Thayers word here! They rightly identify two partitive nouns --them, and Israel as two parts of the whole and that peace is desired to both parts! Please do listen to them!

covenantee said:

Patent df racism.

God's Covenants always were, and are, extended equally and impartially to all who through the spiritual DNA of faith and obedience, complied and comply with His Covenant conditions.

Except to df racism, there was nothing inferior about these Gentiles, or any faithful obedient Gentiles anywhere in Scripture:

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

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1. Spiritual DNa is you rmade up woprd so it is an irrelavent concept. It appears no where in Scripture.

And your four examples fail to show that the Old Covenant was for the strangers nations. It applied to the individual "stranger" that joins with Israel. IOW become a proselyte to Judaism

Your argument actually bolsters the Judaizers argument in Galatians, that in order to benefit from teh blessing God gave Israel, Gentiles had to bewcome a jew! Paul nixed that.

Pick a better argument- for this one argues the opposite of what you are trying to say.

there is no nations mentioned here, just strangers who became proselytes

Keraz said:

No scripture tells of a general Jewish redemption. Zechariah 12:11-14 only mentions a few Jewish families. Romans 9:27 says that only a Jewish remnant will survive.

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Well if you read teh real bible it does. Ez. 20, Jer. 31 and Zech 13 all save that at one point in time, all suvuvung Jews (Zech. places it at 1/3 of all Jews who entered the time of Jacob's Trouble or the trib) will be saved. Paul reiterated it in rom. 11.

and if the best you have is going after my spelling and the fact I write like most others here, you should just give it up!

Zechariah 13:8-9
King James Version

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.


!/3 here is the remnant. At current levles that would be approx. 8 million Jews!

Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

God says here He will bring the Jews to a particular place ( I believe their land), plead with them, judge them, purge them and the rest will know He is Lord!

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


He doesn't leave any living Jews out here ewither!

Ezekiel 37:18-26
King James Version

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Once again all Jews at a point in time will be reunited as on enation and saved, god then makes the new covenant effective.

Romans 11:25-29
King James Version

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


that is why Paul wrote this! Because He knew the OT and trhe promises where God said " I will" or "it shall come to pass". When God says that- you can take it to the bank!

I hope my writing and spelling di dnot distract you from seeing the Word of God!!!!!!

Ronald Nolette said:

Yuo should take Strong and Thayers word here! They rightly identify two partitive nouns --them, and Israel as two parts of the whole and that peace is desired to both parts! Please do listen to them!

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Applying Strong/Thayer to Galatians 6:16 :

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, in short, upon the Israel of God.

There's no long after the short.

The Israel of God.