Timing of the abomination of desolation

Randy Kluth · Jun 29, 2022

n2thelight said:
First you must understand what is meant by the term AoD

Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand"

This reference is directed to Daniel 9:27.

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

I'm sorry, but Dan 9.27 has been a difficult translation for translators. I don't think you have the authority to determine how it should be read for yourself, although you certainly have a right to form your own opinion.

Personally, I see a connection between Dan 9.27 and the Olivet Discourse, and therefore conclude that the AoD is the Roman Army who desolated Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, the generation in which Jesus was "cut off."

n2thelight said:
Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and the determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The Holy place is the place that the temple sits, and this is the subject for the very first, when the buildings of the temple were observed by the disciples, and the question of what it would be like at His second advent. This is where the desolation [Satan, the Antichrist] shall sit on mount Zion, making his abominations, or statements that he is the Christ.

The world will be deceived when Satan claims himself to be Christ, for he does have supernatural powers, and he will use them to to draw the peoples of the world to come to peace.

I don't doubt that Antichrist will come, but I don't believe he is Satan. Nor do I think 2 Thes 2 relates to the AoD of the Olivet Discourse and Dan 9.27. Your views are an interpretation, as are mine. The language does not easily determine what is correct since it is hotly contested and the translation itself questionable.

Keraz · Jun 29, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
This is a contradiction, as I see it. If DNA has nothing to do with it, who cares where ancient Israelites of the Northern ten tribes were taken?

I admit; it does seem to be a contradiction.
As we know from genetic and genealogical studies, everyone alive today can claim some of Abrahams genes,
This means that now it is only the Spiritual condition of the person which dictates their position with God. It is us, the Christian peoples from every race, nation and language, who are the people of God, the Overcomers for Him; Literally the Israelites of God.

God will never redeem anyone who rejects Jesus and of the Jews, only a few are finally saved, not their nation.

covenantee · Jun 29, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
Now that Israel is without the covenant of Law God is not busy killing them all! How ridiculous! Jews are eligible for God's mercy through repentance just like any other ethnic group.

They are not specially targeted for death simply because they once were under the covenant of Law and broke it. Those specifically who broke the Law Christ died to forgive! Never forget that!

Of course. But if they persist in rebellion and rejection of Christ's mercy and grace, will their ultimate fate be any different from that of the Israelite rebels and rejecters whom God slew?

The answer is self-evident.

Never forget that!!

Randy Kluth · Jun 29, 2022

Keraz said:
I admit; it does seem to be a contradiction.
As we know from genetic and genealogical studies, everyone alive today can claim some of Abrahams genes,
This means that now it is only the Spiritual condition of the person which dictates their position with God. It is us, the Christian peoples from every race, nation and language, who are the people of God, the Overcomers for Him; Literally the Israelites of God.

God will never redeem anyone who rejects Jesus and of the Jews, only a few are finally saved, not their nation.

Yes, the real argument I get from RT, Reform Theology, and others is against nationalism. Since the Bible promises restoration of the "nation," I can't come to the same conclusion.

God is either reaching out to the nations in order to save a few, and cares nothing about the society, or He is reaching out to save national structures in order to facilitate the salvation of many individuals in each nation. I believe God is able to save not just a few, but many, requiring restoration of the social structures that support that salvation.

Keraz · Jun 30, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
God is either reaching out to the nations in order to save a few, and cares nothing about the society, or He is reaching out to save national structures in order to facilitate the salvation of many individuals in each nation. I believe God is able to save not just a few, but many, requiring restoration of the social structures that support that salvation.

The prophesies do not say there will be a general Jewish redemption. They do say there will be new nation, whom God will bless and protect.
A nation who bears the proper fruit, the fruit of the Spirit, now: not after further trials. Which is just a teaching, an important facet of the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.
The true faithful nation, made up of people from every tribe, race and language, is the one described to occupy all of the holy Land in the end times.
Only righteous people can live there' Isaiah 35:8-10

Randy Kluth · Jun 30, 2022

Keraz said:
The prophesies do not say there will be a general Jewish redemption.

I beg to differ. But we're going to have to follow our own road. Thanks for the discussion.

Keraz · Jun 30, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
I beg to differ. But we're going to have to follow our own road. Thanks for the discussion.

I said there will not be a general Jewish redemption.
But the Bible does say there will be a redemption of the Israelite people.

All Israel shall be saved:
Romans 11:26-27, And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The quotation Paul uses is from Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob

When the Bible says that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved in Romans 11:26-27, it refers to only a remnant of the Jewish people and all true Christians, now the Israel of God.

The message to the individual is that he or she must “turn from transgression” to the Lord. There will be a remnant that will turn to him. All of them will be saved. He speaks of the saved remnant as the nation of Israel. As we know it today.

Are the Jews still God's people? Yes, but only those who are both ethnic and spiritual Jews. Romans 2:29 Saved Gentiles have also been grafted into the tree and are now co-heirs of the promises of God to Israel. Galatians 3:26-29 The apostle Paul was a remnant Jew...

Romans 11:1, I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Paul was an ethnic Israelite. Paul says that it's all by God's grace... Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Romans 9:27

In other words, by grace through faith, plus or minus nothing, in the Lord Jesus Christ. Only through faith in Jesus can anyone be a child of God. Confirmed by:

Galatians 3:26-29, For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then are you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Clearly, Galatians 3:26-29 states that unsaved Jews cannot be Abraham's spiritual seed, nor are they heirs of the promises of God made to Israel in the Bible. The Bible is very plain on this subject that only born-again Christian believers of any ethnicity are heirs of the promises of God. True, righteous Christians from every race, nation and language are God's people; the Israelites of God.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. So we can divide all humanity into one or other of these two groups:

1/ Every godless unbeliever including the non-Christian Jews and;
2/ All Christian believers, Jews and Gentiles.; people from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9-10

God never blesses wicked evildoers. When the Jews rejected Jesus, God gave them into the hands of their enemies, as in 70 AD. Then, for continuing in their disbelief; the many pogroms and the Holocaust. Now they face the third swing of the Sword, Ezekiel 21:1-16

Romans 11:1-2 and 19-23, I say then, Has God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away his people which he foreknew…..You may say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and we Christians stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, blessing, so keep your faith: otherwise you also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they change their ways, shall be grafted back in: for God is able to graft them in again.

This Scripture plainly teaches that ONLY Jews who believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ will be grafted back into the tree as God's people. Jeremiah 12:14-16 proves this.
God cut off Judah in 586 BC for their continuous and stiffnecked rebellion against His Word, even killing the prophets.

God still loves His people, His true people who obey Him, and any Jew can be grafted back into the tree, but all Christ-rejecting Jews are NOT GOD'S PEOPLE. The Parable of the Vineyard shows how the ethnic Jewish people have lost their status. Matthew 21:33-46, Luke 19:27

Less than .025% of the Jews living in Israel today profess to be a Christian. Only a fool thinks that God loves the apostate, atheistic, gay pride, Christ rejecting Jews. These types are NOT God's people.

So only the saved Jews are part of God's people, but most are saved Gentiles, the descendants of Abraham by their faith.
Only believers in Jesus Christ can claim to be heirs of the promises of God originally given to Israel, but now applicable to every faithful Christian.

Galatians 3:29 proclaims this truth...And if you be Christ's, then are you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Romans 8:16-17

Randy Kluth · Jun 30, 2022

Keraz said:
I said there will not be a general Jewish redemption.
But the Bible does say there will be a redemption of the Israelite people.

All Israel shall be saved:
Romans 11:26-27, And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The quotation Paul uses is from Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob

When the Bible says that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved in Romans 11:26-27, it refers to only a remnant of the Jewish people and all true Christians, now the Israel of God.

Yea, I know. I see it a little differently, although I'm not sure it's a critical matter. I believe it would be a truism for Paul to say the people that will get saved will get saved. So I believe what it's really saying is that the nation that presently is closed to the Gospel to all but a few will one day open wide its doors to a national revival.

Keraz said:
The message to the individual is that he or she must “turn from transgression” to the Lord. There will be a remnant that will turn to him. All of them will be saved. He speaks of the saved remnant as the nation of Israel. As we know it today.

The remnant that Paul speaks of are the Christians among the Jews who have already turned to Him. So why say that in the future a remnant of them will get saved when that is the way it's always been? I don't see the prophetic value in such a statement?

Keraz said:
Are the Jews still God's people? Yes, but only those who are both ethnic and spiritual Jews. Romans 2:29 Saved Gentiles have also been grafted into the tree and are now co-heirs of the promises of God to Israel. Galatians 3:26-29 The apostle Paul was a remnant Jew...

Yes, but I believe Christian nations need to give up the stain of being a "Gentile." The Jewish People were born of a man from Ur, a Babylonian! So what nation on earth is inferior to Israel when it enters, like Israel did, into a covenant with God? So I don't believe non-Jewish nations are one bit inferior to the Jewish nation. All nations are great if they enter into covenant with Christ!

Keraz said:
Romans 11:1, I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Paul was an ethnic Israelite. Paul says that it's all by God's grace... Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Romans 9:27

In other words, by grace through faith, plus or minus nothing, in the Lord Jesus Christ. Only through faith in Jesus can anyone be a child of God. Confirmed by:

Galatians 3:26-29, For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then are you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Yes, the Jews don't have an ace in hand--non-Jewish peoples have equal access to Christ, and there is no advantage to being of the Jewish race. The only advantage the Jews had was their upbringing in the tradition of Abrahamic faith. But that advantage has long been lost since Christian nations have begun their own tradition of Abrahamic faith.

Keraz said:
Clearly, Galatians 3:26-29 states that unsaved Jews cannot be Abraham's spiritual seed, nor are they heirs of the promises of God made to Israel in the Bible. The Bible is very plain on this subject that only born-again Christian believers of any ethnicity are heirs of the promises of God. True, righteous Christians from every race, nation and language are God's people; the Israelites of God.

I agree. The promise God made to Abraham requires that they produce the faith of Abraham, which is now belief in Christ.

Keraz said:
There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. So we can divide all humanity into one or other of these two groups:

1/ Every godless unbeliever including the non-Christian Jews and;
2/ All Christian believers, Jews and Gentiles.; people from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9-10

God never blesses wicked evildoers. When the Jews rejected Jesus, God gave them into the hands of their enemies, as in 70 AD. Then, for continuing in their disbelief; the many pogroms and the Holocaust. Now they face the third swing of the Sword, Ezekiel 21:1-16

Romans 11:1-2 and 19-23, I say then, Has God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away his people which he foreknew…..You may say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and we Christians stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, blessing, so keep your faith: otherwise you also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they change their ways, shall be grafted back in: for God is able to graft them in again.

This Scripture plainly teaches that ONLY Jews who believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ will be grafted back into the tree as God's people. Jeremiah 12:14-16 proves this.
God cut off Judah in 586 BC for their continuous and stiffnecked rebellion against His Word, even killing the prophets.

God still loves His people, His true people who obey Him, and any Jew can be grafted back into the tree, but all Christ-rejecting Jews are NOT GOD'S PEOPLE. The Parable of the Vineyard shows how the ethnic Jewish people have lost their status. Matthew 21:33-46, Luke 19:27

Less than .025% of the Jews living in Israel today profess to be a Christian. Only a fool thinks that God loves the apostate, atheistic, gay pride, Christ rejecting Jews. These types are NOT God's people.

So only the saved Jews are part of God's people, but most are saved Gentiles, the descendants of Abraham by their faith.
Only believers in Jesus Christ can claim to be heirs of the promises of God originally given to Israel, but now applicable to every faithful Christian.

Galatians 3:29 proclaims this truth...And if you be Christ's, then are you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Romans 8:16-17

I wouldn't necessarily group all Jews into those who are "apostate, atheistic, and gay," although they typically reject Jesus as their Messiah. To say they are all rejected fails to recognize that they can be reinstated if they repent at the preaching of the Gospel. After all the Gospel is designed to reach out to those who are lost in their own ignorance.

Ancient · Jul 5, 2022

This may help

Shalom

Davy · Jul 5, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
I'm sorry, but Dan 9.27 has been a difficult translation for translators. I don't think you have the authority to determine how it should be read for yourself, although you certainly have a right to form your own opinion.

Personally, I see a connection between Dan 9.27 and the Olivet Discourse, and therefore conclude that the AoD is the Roman Army who desolated Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, the generation in which Jesus was "cut off."

I don't doubt that Antichrist will come, but I don't believe he is Satan. Nor do I think 2 Thes 2 relates to the AoD of the Olivet Discourse and Dan 9.27. Your views are an interpretation, as are mine. The language does not easily determine what is correct since it is hotly contested and the translation itself questionable.

The Daniel 9:27 verse is very EASY to understand... IF... one heeds that same idea as written elsewhere in God's Word...

Dan 11:21-23
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
KJV

Dan 11:30-31
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

Dan 8:9-14
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV

Dan 12:9-11
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
KJV

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.
KJV

Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
KJV

All those examples when understood together reveal...

1. a false one is coming, titles of "little horn" and "a vile person" are used about him.
2. he will make a "league" with a small group.
3. he will be against the holy covenant.
4. his being against the holy covenant reveals the old covenant established in Jerusalem again.
5. his setting up the abomination signals a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem, since the prophecy is about Jerusalem and Daniel's people the Jews.
6. he will END the daily sacrifices required under the then re-established old covenant.
7. in place of sacrifices, he will instead place an idol abomination in the temple, the idol standing where it ought not.
8. the abomination idol in Jerusalem will cause Jerusalem and a 3rd temple to become spiritually desolate, thus the actual meaning of 'desolation'.
9. Jesus pointed to the 'abomination of desolation' being setup in the future, during the time of "great tribulation" for the end of this world that He warned about.
10. Daniel 8 and 12 point to the "abomination of desolation" event being for the very end of this world.

Randy Kluth · Jul 5, 2022

Davy said:
The Daniel 9:27 verse is very EASY to understand... IF... one heeds that same idea as written elsewhere in God's Word...

As I said, it is hotly contested. It is *not* easy to untangle the different views with authoritative language. The passages you cite do not necessarily go together, and yet you place them together and then call it "easy."

I do not believe the passages involving Antiochus 4, including Dan 8 and 11, have anything to do with the Olivet Discourse in Mark 13 and Luke 21. Are there similarities? Yes. Does that mean they refer to the same event, to Antichrist? No.

I in fact believe the Olivet Discourse and its reference to the AoD refer not to Antichrist but to the Roman Army which devastated the Jewish temple in Jesus' generation. Should I state this as fact, and then declare it to be "simple" language? No. Out of respect for the controversy, I must acknowledge that good people disagree on this.

Davy said:
Dan 11:21-23
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
KJV

Dan 11:30-31
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

Dan 8:9-14
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV

Dan 12:9-11
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
KJV

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.
KJV

Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
KJV

All those examples when understood together reveal...

1. a false one is coming, titles of "little horn" and "a vile person" are used about him.
2. he will make a "league" with a small group.
3. he will be against the holy covenant.
4. his being against the holy covenant reveals the old covenant established in Jerusalem again.
5. his setting up the abomination signals a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem, since the prophecy is about Jerusalem and Daniel's people the Jews.
6. he will END the daily sacrifices required under the then re-established old covenant.
7. in place of sacrifices, he will instead place an idol abomination in the temple, the idol standing where it ought not.
8. the abomination idol in Jerusalem will cause Jerusalem and a 3rd temple to become spiritually desolate, thus the actual meaning of 'desolation'.
9. Jesus pointed to the 'abomination of desolation' being setup in the future, during the time of "great tribulation" for the end of this world that He warned about.
10. Daniel 8 and 12 point to the "abomination of desolation" event being for the very end of this world.

Davy · Jul 9, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
As I said, it is hotly contested. It is *not* easy to untangle the different views with authoritative language. The passages you cite do not necessarily go together, and yet you place them together and then call it "easy."

All you're doing is TRYING to cast doubt on what those Scriptures reveal. And they most certainly do link together about specific events for the END of this present world. Why do you think Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel about the "abomination of desolation" event that is to happen in Jerusalem for the end, if they are not linked with His warnings? It's foolishness to think different.

I do not believe the passages involving Antiochus 4, including Dan 8 and 11, have anything to do with the Olivet Discourse in Mark 13 and Luke 21. Are there similarities? Yes. Does that mean they refer to the same event, to Antichrist? No.

I in fact believe the Olivet Discourse and its reference to the AoD refer not to Antichrist but to the Roman Army which devastated the Jewish temple in Jesus' generation. Should I state this as fact, and then declare it to be "simple" language? No. Out of respect for the controversy, I must acknowledge that good people disagree on this.

Yeah, those who actually know their Bible have heard all that baloney from the PRETERIST seminary doctrines of men for quite a while now. You might as well just put your Bible on a shelf if you want to listen to all their FALSE THEORIES about 70 A.D. and Christ's Olivet discourse. They have a LOT OF BOOKS too you can buy and create your own library of vanity!

Randy Kluth · Jul 9, 2022

Davy said:
All you're doing is TRYING to cast doubt on what those Scriptures reveal. And they most certainly do link together about specific events for the END of this present world. Why do you think Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel about the "abomination of desolation" event that is to happen in Jerusalem for the end, if they are not linked with His warnings? It's foolishness to think different.

Jesus spoke of 2 events--not just 1, in his Olivet Discourse. So you have to decide if the AoD has to do with the 1st event or the 2nd event. It's not "foolish" to have a different opinion than you. We both refer to the same Bible.

Davy said:
Yeah, those who actually know their Bible have heard all that baloney from the PRETERIST seminary doctrines of men for quite a while now. You might as well just put your Bible on a shelf if you want to listen to all their FALSE THEORIES about 70 A.D. and Christ's Olivet discourse. They have a LOT OF BOOKS too you can buy and create your own library of vanity!

You seem not to know that the Church Fathers held this position way before the Preterist system came to be? This is an historical position--not owned by the Preterist system. I reject the Preterist system, which tends to reject most all future prophecies. I disagree with that. I think the book of Revelation is largely future.

Davy · Jul 10, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
Jesus spoke of 2 events--not just 1, in his Olivet Discourse. So you have to decide if the AoD has to do with the 1st event or the 2nd event. It's not "foolish" to have a different opinion than you. We both refer to the same Bible.

It is foolish to allow men's doctrines ADDED to the Scripture, which changes what The Word of God says as written. That's what you are doing with belief on a false pre-trib rapture theory.

Jesus gave 7 Signs of the end in His Olivet discourse. That's why His Olivet discourse is a PARALLEL to the Seals in the Revelation 6 Chapter.

You seem not to know that the Church Fathers held this position way before the Preterist system came to be? This is an historical position--not owned by the Preterist system. I reject the Preterist system, which tends to reject most all future prophecies. I disagree with that. I think the book of Revelation is largely future.

Whoah! Whoah! Whoah! The early centuries Church fathers held to a POST-TRIBULATION COMING BY CHRIST AND GATHERING OF THE CHURCH. No pre-tribulational rapture theory was preached in a Christian Church until John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain.

So quit telling LIES about that.

Oh, and I am not a Preterist, nor a Historicist, nor a Futurist, nor any other seminary category of men's leaven doctrines. I stick to what is written in the simplicity of God's Word. And it is simple once one has done their homework in it for themselves with God's help. So the heck with all the theories from men, the question is, what does The Word of God as written say?

Keraz · Jul 10, 2022

The timing of the abomination of desolation, as it is referred to in Daniel 9:26-27, will happen when an invading prince puts a stop to the offerings and sacrifices in the Temple.
This did happen in 167 BC, when Antiochus 4 E stopped the offerings and slaughtered a pig on the alter. Referred to in Daniel 8:12

But Jesus prophesies a future, similar occurrence; Matthew 24:15, and by Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:31, and Paul; 2 Thessalonians 2:4.
The future AoD event, will happen at the mid point of the final seven years before Jesus Returns. It will trigger the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and the seven Bowls, the last 42 months when Satan will have world control. Revelation 13:1-8

Randy Kluth · Jul 10, 2022

Davy said:
It is foolish to allow men's doctrines ADDED to the Scripture, which changes what The Word of God says as written. That's what you are doing with belief on a false pre-trib rapture theory.

Boy are you messed up! I never said I was Pretrib!

Davy · Jul 11, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
Boy are you messed up! I never said I was Pretrib!

Futurism, Historicism, Preterism, all just leaven fragments by men added to God's Word. So you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture theory, good.

But it's just as bad to try and say the "abomination of desolation" event already happened in 70 A.D., when there is NOTHING recorded about it ever happening by the Romans when they destroyed Jerusalem then. Josephus said the temple burned down before the Romans could get possession of it. So where's YOUR HISTORY about the AoD since you love men's Historicist leaven so much? And don't try to say the Romans held sacrifices in the temple court, I've heard that one all before too, just any old idea will do Historicists think. No that won't work. It has to be a JEWISH BUILT TEMPLE for the "abomination of desolation" event, because per DANIEL 9:27 AND DANIEL 11 the AoD event is to REPLACE the daily sacrifices by the Jews in Jerusalem.

And that is NOT opinion, it is based on recorded history, and the Daniel prophecies.

Randy Kluth · Jul 11, 2022

Davy said:
Futurism, Historicism, Preterism, all just leaven fragments by men added to God's Word. So you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture theory, good.

But it's just as bad to try and say the "abomination of desolation" event already happened in 70 A.D., when there is NOTHING recorded about it ever happening by the Romans when they destroyed Jerusalem then. Josephus said the temple burned down before the Romans could get possession of it. So where's YOUR HISTORY about the AoD since you love men's Historicist leaven so much? And don't try to say the Romans held sacrifices in the temple court, I've heard that one all before too, just any old idea will do Historicists think. No that won't work. It has to be a JEWISH BUILT TEMPLE for the "abomination of desolation" event, because per DANIEL 9:27 AND DANIEL 11 the AoD event is to REPLACE the daily sacrifices by the Jews in Jerusalem.

And that is NOT opinion, it is based on recorded history, and the Daniel prophecies.

You should learn to be a bit more diplomatic and tactful in your discussions. Can you imagine, if you've ever held to a wrong belief, that others refer to your mistakes as "leaven?" It's not conducive to good relations, nor likely to convince you to change your beliefs about something.

That being said, it isn't critical in this matter precisely how the temple was destroyed. It was caused by the invasion of the Roman Army. That is a fact of history.

And there is nothing wrong about believing the AoD happened in 70 AD. Most of the Church Fathers believed this.

If all you want to do is disparage anybody other than your own beliefs then you're wasting everybody's time. To denounce great Church Fathers, established, time-honored beliefs as "leaven," and ignore well-respect Bible commentators, you have to be among the many proud, arrogant fools on these forums. Unfortunately, it is typical.

Davy · Jul 11, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
You should learn to be a bit more diplomatic and tactful in your discussions. Can you imagine, if you've ever held to a wrong belief, that others refer to your mistakes as "leaven?" It's not conducive to good relations, nor likely to convince you to change your beliefs about something.

If someone will go against... The written Word of God just because they don't like my delivery of its Truth, then those truly need more help than God's Word can give them.

There are times for sweetness, and God's people have been long on that method with preachers preaching their own word instead of covering God's Word to His people line upon line, chapter by chapter. So now as we have come super close to the end of this world, God's Word as written MUST go out, and let the chips fall where they may.

Either one is on His side heeding His Word as written, or they are not. And I have NO problem rebuking others when they are NOT keeping His Word as written. The problem is that the many brethren are so used to hearing their preacher push a seminary line of baloney, pulling out a verse here and a verse there from The Bible and creating leaven, that they think that's how it's supposed to be done!

That being said, it isn't critical in this matter precisely how the temple was destroyed. It was caused by the invasion of the Roman Army. That is a fact of history.

Yeah, now that being said (what I said above), the FACT that the 2nd Jewish temple was destroyed by fire, BEFORE the Romans could get control of it, IS A CRITICAL POINT. You saying it is not is meaningless, and is actually a vain attempt to HIDE how important a fact that is. The Jewish historian Josephus said a fire started WITHIN the temple, pointing to the priests inside themselves having lit it! Obviously, you are not aware of that FACT showing that you haven't even read his testimony. So much for your statements about facts (LOL!).

And there is nothing wrong about believing the AoD happened in 70 AD. Most of the Church Fathers believed this.

Sure it is wrong... to believe the "abomination of desolation" happened in 70 A.D. It is also wrong to try and re-define what that AoD is about, by misapplying the word "desolation" to mean the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Destruction is NOT the meaning of the "abomination of desolation" per the Book of Daniel.

The MEANING of the "abomination of desolation" event that Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel (Daniel 11), is about the temple being made SPIRITUALLY DESOLATE because of the placing of a Idol on an altar inside... the Jewish temple; and then demanding all bow to it in false worship. And just to make SURE we understand that is what the AoD is about, God allowed Antiochus Epiphanes to conquer Jerusalem in 165-170 B.C., and go inside the 2nd temple and sacrifice swine upon the Altar, spreading its broth around inside the temple, and then setting up an Idol abomination to Zeus on an altar inside that temple in false Hellenist worship. That's the blueprint pattern for the AoD at the end of this world by the coming Antichrist.

If all you want to do is disparage anybody other than your own beliefs then you're wasting everybody's time. To denounce great Church Fathers, established, time-honored beliefs as "leaven," and ignore well-respect Bible commentators, you have to be among the many proud, arrogant fools on these forums. Unfortunately, it is typical.

You are simply wasting your time with all that mocking and LIES you are telling. I have not mocked the 'great' Church Fathers. Origen and Clement of Alexanadria were not great Church fathers, the field of higher criticism was based on their allegorical interpretations of The Bible, a type of philosophical approach that left many literal Truths written in God's Word.

Nor have I denied ANY Church tradition that is ACTUALLY written of in God's Word! So you are telling LIES in a vain attempt to discredit. You obviously can't prove your Historicist position with evidence of FACTS nor from God's written Word, so now you only steep to the dung of trying to discredit. You only discredit yourself by doing that. I stand by The Word of God as written, and by REAL History.

Here's a Gift... The STILL standing huge STONES of the old temple Western Wall in Jerusalem. There are STILL huge stone one atop another there, showing 70 A.D. did not destroy ALL those stones, leaving Jesus' declaration to still be yet sometime in the future...

covenantee · Jul 11, 2022

Davy said:
If someone will go against... The written Word of God just because they don't like my delivery of its Truth, then those truly need more help than God's Word can give them.

There are times for sweetness, and God's people have been long on that method with preachers preaching their own word instead of covering God's Word to His people line upon line, chapter by chapter. So now as we have come super close to the end of this world, God's Word as written MUST go out, and let the chips fall where they may.

Either one is on His side heeding His Word as written, or they are not. And I have NO problem rebuking others when they are NOT keeping His Word as written. The problem is that the many brethren are so used to hearing their preacher push a seminary line of baloney, pulling out a verse here and a verse there from The Bible and creating leaven, that they think that's how it's supposed to be done!

Yeah, now that being said (what I said above), the FACT that the 2nd Jewish temple was destroyed by fire, BEFORE the Romans could get control of it, IS A CRITICAL POINT. You saying it is not is meaningless, and is actually a vain attempt to HIDE how important a fact that is. The Jewish historian Josephus said a fire started WITHIN the temple, pointing to the priests inside themselves having lit it! Obviously, you are not aware of that FACT showing that you haven't even read his testimony. So much for your statements about facts (LOL!).

Sure it is wrong... to believe the "abomination of desolation" happened in 70 A.D. It is also wrong to try and re-define what that AoD is about, by misapplying the word "desolation" to mean the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Destruction is NOT the meaning of the "abomination of desolation" per the Book of Daniel.

The MEANING of the "abomination of desolation" event that Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel (Daniel 11), is about the temple being made SPIRITUALLY DESOLATE because of the placing of a Idol on an altar inside... the Jewish temple; and then demanding all bow to it in false worship. And just to make SURE we understand that is what the AoD is about, God allowed Antiochus Epiphanes to conquer Jerusalem in 165-170 B.C., and go inside the 2nd temple and sacrifice swine upon the Altar, spreading its broth around inside the temple, and then setting up an Idol abomination to Zeus on an altar inside that temple in false Hellenist worship. That's the blueprint pattern for the AoD at the end of this world by the coming Antichrist.

You are simply wasting your time with all that mocking and LIES you are telling. I have not mocked the 'great' Church Fathers. Origen and Clement of Alexanadria were not great Church fathers, the field of higher criticism was based on their allegorical interpretations of The Bible, a type of philosophical approach that left many literal Truths written in God's Word.

Nor have I denied ANY Church tradition that is ACTUALLY written of in God's Word! So you are telling LIES in a vain attempt to discredit. You obviously can't prove your Historicist position with evidence of FACTS nor from God's written Word, so now you only steep to the dung of trying to discredit. You only discredit yourself by doing that. I stand by The Word of God as written, and by REAL History.

Here's a Gift... The STILL standing huge STONES of the old temple Western Wall in Jerusalem. There are STILL huge stone one atop another there, showing 70 A.D. did not destroy ALL those stones, leaving Jesus' declaration to still be yet sometime in the future...

Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Luke 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Timing of the abomination of desolation

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