This really grabbed me today!

Matthias said:

I think it can only happen by surrendering / conforming to Christ; become more and more like him every day.

The old man is tough, hardened by the years of boxing. He doesn’t go down easily, and he keeps getting up off the canvas when knocked down. But down he must go, and down he must stay.

Music is filled with theology. Some of it good, some of it bad, some of it ugly.

Words are spirit. Test the spirit.

When I listen to music, I hear theology.

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And we need to be self aware, and honest with ourselves, so when we see that's what we're doing, holding on the fight, we can learn to let go.

Much love!

marks said:

And we need to be self aware, and honest with ourselves, so when we see that's what we're doing, holding on the fight, we can learn to let go.

Much love!

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I’ve reached the point in my walk where it’s no longer the punches I receive which truly harm me; it’s the punches which I seldom throw, or desire to, that do. That’s not natural to fallen man; it’s counterintuitive to us. We have a part to play but we simply cannot do it on our own.

Only through Christ is victory over the old man secured.

David Byrne did that a lot, too

marks said:

You're endless nonsense of "death more abundantly"

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hey, for all i know it might work out

marks said:

But you're not going to see that life more abundant until you can let go this world, and set your mind on things above.

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ah well i guess we’re supposed to do that while we’re here?

marks said:

that's not what Peter wrote

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it isnt?

marks said:

For myself, I think the right idea is to learn what the passage says, and believe it.

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me too, but i also understand that a lot of believers believe they can Quote “to be absent from the body…” with confidence

marks said:

It really doesn't sound that we have anything like the same kind of approach to the Bible.

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milk and meat dont mix, yeh

fwiw i interpreted them in agreement with you for like ever. forty years prolly

marks said:

16) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the unlearned and unsettled pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction

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Matthias said:

I’ve reached the point in my walk where it’s no longer the punches I receive which truly harm me; it’s the punches which I seldom throw, or desire to, that do. That’s not natural to fallen man; it’s counterintuitive to us. We have a part to play but we simply cannot do it on our own.

Only through Christ is victory over the old man secured.

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I heard a really good sermon from Colin Smith last night. He was talking about the punches we receive, how these are people he calls "God's abrasives", and that if we're going to be polished, that's how a lot of it happens.

He talked about the conflicts and issues in churches, how, when you schedule the builder to remodel, and you go on vacation for a week, and come back, and everything is orderly, stacks of lumber, everything all neat and clean, you know no one is working yet. But when you come back and fine sawdust and busted out walls and empty cement sacks and cords running everywhere . . . the Builder is there, and all this chaos means He's building.

Much love!

bbyrd009 said:

me too, but i also understand that a lot of believers believe they can Quote “to be absent from the body…” with confidence

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Lots of people do lots of things . . . and believe all sorts of nonsense. I'm going to go back to recommending to accept the sayings of God in the Bible as He said them.

Yes, you know that's what Peter wrote, you even included my quote of him in your post. Either he said it or he didn't. Either we accept it or we don't.

Much love!

marks said:

And there is quite often one way. And we have lots of those, so we can make some pretty good determinations of what has been written. Then all that remains is to see whether or not we'll accept it's saying, or whether we will take it from it's context, and change around a word here and there, and use it against other Scripture, as if the altered snippet were still Scripture

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i would say that love your neighbor is pretty straightforward, ya, but then there even Bible translations—or at least one translation—that errantly writes “Jesus, returning,” so its maybe not quite that simple? As the Peter Quote indicates

marks said:

Do you speak for yourself, or for others? Most people?

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ah well its just a quote, that might apply to me too, sure

Heart2Soul said:

I apologize, I see it now. And yes Paul is saying he would rather be home with Jesus...but he is the only one who benefits if he did that. So for the sake of those who need to hear the gospel it is best for all that he remain.

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ah well certainly no apologies necessary, as i do not know! What you mean by “home with Jesus” becomes unclear here though…but i suggest that that is something we can accomplish right here on earth maybe?

i also think Paul might be using “body” there differently than we read at first; ive played around with putting “body of Christ” (those present, that he felt responsible for) or even mundane v what we might call “out of body” experience there, dunno though.

Heart2Soul said:

Many people refer to heaven as home....and yes eventually home will be the new earth...the new heaven and earth.

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there is a meme about when we change our minds, our reality immediately changes
in so many words anyway

a big shift in Bible study came for me when i quit trying to fit Scripture to my preconceived notions, chiefly of death, more abundantly. I wish i could say life got better after that, but it did both, got better, and worse, as i could no longer abide comfortably “in the body”

Heart2Soul said:

²⁴ Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you

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but i am noticing that Paul does not use soma, nor ecclesia, but rather sarki there, a rather unusual term, that is likely defined better by exploring its other uses in the Bible
Philippians 1:24 Lexicon: yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Strong's Greek: 4561. σάρξ (sarx) -- flesh
and now i recall doing this at least once before, but the takeaway for me was…that he is not using soma, or iow he is not saying that he wishes he was absent from the body (soma)
.
2 Corinthians 5:8 Lexicon: we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
which that is imo a terrible rendering fwiw
or, a perfectly fine rendering, only read from a certain perspective that im sure was intended, and also misleading, a la Paul; so hard to illustrate this point—one might be of excellent courage about Jesus literally returning, but they cannot Quote that anywhere, see; what can be Quoted is Return to Me and I will return to you

marks said:

that man being Jesus Christ, not just "John Doe from Nowhere", but Jesus of Nazareth, a real Man

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ah, you might be hearing more literally than i meant; no reason that both couldnt be true i guess

It comes down to whether you believe the straightforward sayings of the Bible or not. There are as many ways to imaginatively interpret the Bible as there are people to do that, and that's a big problem.

Everyone who comes to a passsage and starts interpreting according to what they think the metaphor is, what the "spiritual meaning" is, without the Bible itself showing these things, all come to their own interpretations. So as many ways to imaginatively interpret, that's how many POV's you'll end up with. And I'm just talking about the major doctrines.

Because each has their own thoughts about, "This doesn't really mean living on earth, and then dying and being with Jesus", you must go on to answer, then, what does it REALLY mean, and each have their own answer. And sometimes they will come to the same answer as others, and sometimes not.

Those who read a passage for it's plain saying will all come to the same understanding, unity of faith and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Being "spiritually discerned" does not mean that the Bible doesn't mean the words God used.

Of course, many believe that the Bible "contains the Word of God", but not that it IS the Word of God, meaning that they decide what is and what isn't true.

And many believe it's not the actual Word of God, really, more, the perceptions and opinions of ancient peoples, and while we may learn things about God from it, it's now like we're reading what God Himself wrote.

And that's what I personally believe the Bible is. The Book that God wrote for us so we can know Him. In my submission to the Holy Scriptures, I find the hope of the resurrection. The outcome of our faith. Immortality in a resurrected body living forever with God. If it's not so that you can live together with God, in this world, and in the next, why be a Christian?

And if your hope is only for this world . . . I suggest taking another look.

Much love!

marks said:

In my submission to the Holy Scriptures, I find the hope of the resurrection. The outcome of our faith. Immortality in a resurrected body living forever with God. If it's not so that you can live together with God, in this world, and in the next, why be a Christian?

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What a great question!...

But first of all when you speak of “the resurrection”, this means different things to different people. “The resurrection” of humans from the dead has two different outcomes according to scripture. (John 5:28-29) So the question then becomes, what kind of “resurrection” are we talking about?

There is a difference between “immortality” and “everlasting life”. Humans were never promised immortality, but they were promised everlasting life, conditionally.....as long as they obeyed the commands of their Creator. Death would only come if humans did the wrong thing and abused their free will. (Romans 5:12) “The tree of life” was there in the garden to guarantee that mortal life would never end. Access was denied when they were kicked out of paradise. Death then became inevitable.
Jesus’ sacrifice was intended to undo the damage that Adam brought on all of his offspring, and to restore God’s first purpose.

Was it possible to “live forever with God”, but right here on earth in our mortal flesh, which is where God put us in the first place? I believe so....absolutely.

If we always go back to the beginning as a starting point, was death and resurrection ever given to Adam as part of his life in paradise? If not, and death was not even mentioned as a normal part of mortal human life, (except as a penalty for disobedience) what was the destiny of humankind if they were designed to live forever on earth? What gives us the idea that all Christians must be heaven bound in order to experience everlasting life in health and happiness with Jesus?

It is “this world” (wicked human society) that needs to be removed so that we can get back to what God originally purposed for the human race. Having all those who practice what God condemns, eliminated from existence (like God did in Noah’s Day) will pave the way for God’s original purpose to be fulfilled....it never changed. (Isaiah 55:11) Jesus said that the conditions before the flood were a model for the time of his return. (Matthew 24:37-39) God ‘reset’ the human race back then, but only temporarily until his Messiah could come at the appointed time and lay down his life so that the mechanism (Christ’s sacrifice) to reinstate His first purpose, could become our reality.

God’s choosing of a small number of humans to go to heaven to assist his son in the administration of his kingdom, doesn’t mean that all of Christ’s disciples will have that destiny. There would mean “all Chiefs and no Indians” as the saying goes.

God’s first purpose for humankind was assigned to them in Eden. They were to “fill the earth and subdue it” which means that spreading the boundaries of their paradise home and having children who would grow to become a global army of workers, (which is what humans are designed to be, being given strong healthy bodies and a desire to be like their Creator in making their surroundings beautiful and well maintained) was God first purpose for humankind.....I cannot see how everyone going to heaven will achieve that outcome.

If those who go to heaven are “chosen” (elected), what are they chosen for? Revelation 20:6 answers....these are going to be “kings and priests” with Jesus as part of his kingdom in heaven. It is to rule for 1,000 years, because this is how long it will take to eradicate sin from the human race.

Kings need subjects, and priests need sinners who can be guided in their lives and worship to conform to God’s requirements, and to intercede for them along the way....there are no sinners in heaven, and kings need subjects......so, who are these in your view?

1 Corinthians 15:49-54 KJV
49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Much love!

Aunty Jane said:

.I cannot see how everyone going to heaven will achieve that outcome.

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Revelation 21:1-4 KJV
1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The earth will be our eternal dwelling place with God. Amazing!

Much love!

marks said:

1 Corinthians 15:49-54 KJV
49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

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The big question Marks......who is the “we” in those verses?

Aunty Jane said:

God’s choosing of a small number of humans to go to heaven to assist his son in the administration of his kingdom, doesn’t mean that all of Christ’s disciples will have that destiny

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Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Ephesians 2:4-7 KJV
4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

You are JW, is that correct? The 144,000 are your chiefs in heaven? I reject that view (I don't now if it's yours) entirely, as failing to take seriously the actual sayings of the Bible, specifically where it tells us about these 144,000. Either we accept what the Bible says, or we endeavor to make the words means something they don't say. I endeavor to accept what it says, personally. The 144,000 are just what the Bible says they are.

We are not "alive in the spirit", "alive in Christ", "hid with Christ in God", in some terrestrial earthy fleshy way. It's a spiritual reality in the spiritual (heavenly) realm.

Living in heaven is something the born again are doing now. When our bodies die, we will experience our existence that way, but in our resurrection, the earth is our home.

Much love!

Aunty Jane said:

The big question Marks......who is the “we” in those verses?

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Yeah. Everyone had better have the right answer there!

Much love!