Spotting Heretics

Philip James · Jun 30, 2022

ScottA said:
It was foretold that false teachers were to enter into the church and the apostasy would ensue because of believing a lie. I believe I gave the scriptures already (sorry I'm on my phone or I would repost them).

You did indeed, and I pointed out that those same scriptures show men leading others away from the community. One must be in union with the Truth to apostise from it..

The Church herself cannot apostize for the Church and Christ are one..

ScottA said:
As for the daily sacrifice ending, it ended with Christ "the End."

The daily sacrifice of the Old Covenenant is ended indeed.. That of the New Covenant will go on till the end of time..

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body."

Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you,

for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins

All are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

Ferris Bueller · Jul 1, 2022

Marymog said:
Lol.....Funny you should say that and it is even funnier that @Ferris Bueller and @Brakelite "liked" your statement.

I am willing to bet if the 3 of you got together, studied and debated Scripture, all three of you would disagree on what is sound doctrine even though you all read the same Bible. Soooooo your cute little "In the Bible" quip that was liked by men who disagree with you on doctrine makes no sense.

So let's get serious here: Scripture speaks of there being sound doctrine and false doctrine! So Jim B, which of you 3 have sound doctrine? You? Brakelite or Ferris B?

Curious Mary

You're not getting it. The Bible is our sound doctrine. Each of us owns a copy of that sound doctrine. Individually we're spending a lifetime learning and discerning that sound doctrine. That means we're going to be at different stages of maturity and growth in the doctrine that is the Bible. What is NOT sound doctrine for us are the edicts of a self imposed leadership telling us they alone are able to discern (and add to) and disseminate truth and have to do that for us. But we know that we have the power of discernment within ourselves by the Holy Spirit according to 1 John 2:20 / 1 John 2:27 (which the Catholic church rejects as sound doctrine). We teach each other through our 1 Corinthians 14:29-31 style of open fellowship in whatever form that might take (which, once again, the Catholic leadership rejects as sound doctrine and does not practice). We teach each other, but we discern what we are taught, individually, on our own, through the ability to do that God has given each of us as believers.

Ferris Bueller · Jul 1, 2022

Marymog said:
Hmmm.....so which Church does? After all, all you Protestants disagree with not only the Catholic Church but each other! you should re-think your theory.

IMO, at this time in church history, there is no one official church organization. The true church, composed of all born again believers, has no definitive, official organizational representation in the world at this time like it did in the very beginning.

Ferris Bueller · Jul 1, 2022

Marymog said:
Well, I guess if you twist Scripture enough, your theory works.

So your men have taught you that we all know the truth as long as we discern the Bible correctly! Interesting theory. So then why do you disagree with my truth? Or have I just not discerned Scripture properly. Can you really not see how your theory is not logical?

Also, how can you say that Catholics reject it? All you Protestants also disagree with each other on what is true. Can you really not see how your theory is not logical?

I see you're trying very hard to convolute what I said, lol.
Contrary to what the Catholic church teaches, each individual believer has within himself the God given anointing to discern whether or not what they are being told or taught is the truth or not. The Catholic leadership says that is not true, and that they alone are able to discern what is truth and what is not. In Catholicism, instead of the sheep hearing His voice, the Catholic leadership hears His voice for you and then tells you what is truth. That's what cults do. They're too afraid to let the sheep hear for themselves. It's a control mechanism.

Philip James · Jul 1, 2022

Ferris Bueller said:
I see you're trying very hard to convolute what I said, lol.
Contrary to what the Catholic church teaches, each individual believer has within himself the God given anointing to discern whether or not what they are being told or taught is the truth or not. The Catholic leadership says that is not true, and that they alone are able to discern what is truth and what is not. In Catholicism, instead of the sheep hearing His voice, the Catholic leadership hears His voice for you and then tells you what is truth. That's what cults do. They're too afraid to let the sheep hear for themselves. It's a control mechanism.

Hello Ferris,

Does the Truth change?

What was True for our brothers and sisters in 50 AD, 100 AD, 200 AD.. 1000 AD.. Must still be True today..

If we 'discern' something that is contrary to what our brothers and sisters have proclaimed and practiced for 2000 years.. Is it not more likely that we are in error rather than the mind of the Church, which is the mind of Christ!

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again

St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

Pax et Bonum

Brakelite · Jul 1, 2022

Philip James said:
If this is so, where is the community that has stood through all of that? Where is the stone that has become a mountain and filled the whole world? Where is the mustard seed that has become the greatest of trees?

Where is the city set on a hill that cannot be hid?

Pax et Bonum

Not this one...

Brakelite said:
Rome made an enemy of every Christian community everywhere she had power. Those who didn't surrender to papal authority were sizzled

Unless you claim that persecuting, killing, and confiscating the property of heretics was the fruit of those apostolic communities that populated every country from Britain to China by the 10th century.

Brakelite · Jul 1, 2022

Marymog said:
So Jim B, which of you 3 have sound doctrine? You? Brakelite or Ferris B

I accept that challenge. If you can search my posts going back several years and find where I am in disagreement with scripture, the ball then goes to Ferris or Jim. Good luck.

Ferris Bueller · Jul 1, 2022

Philip James said:
If we 'discern' something that is contrary to what our brothers and sisters have proclaimed and practiced for 2000 years.. Is it not more likely that we are in error rather than the mind of the Church, which is the mind of Christ!

No, not of necessity. The Bible itself is clear that the church would be corrupted soon after the departure of Paul:

"29I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them." Acts 20:29-30

So, the corruption of the church is at least 2000 years old. Therefore, there is no argument to be made that things were right in the time immediately following the beginning of the New Testament church that we should, of necessity, believe what they believed then.

Ferris Bueller · Jul 1, 2022

Marymog said:
Hey thanks Ferris. I went to that website that lists YOUR doctrine and I found this: Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. How do the members of your Church eat His flesh and drink His blood? What is your doctrine on that?

The actual blood and body of Christ sacrificed for the sin of the world is in heaven, not here on earth (Hebrews 9:24). Believers take the effect of Christ's blood and body placed on the altar in heaven into themselves BY FAITH. Just as the effect of all the other OT sacrifices, of which Christ's body is the reality, are received into ourselves BY FAITH, not by the actual blood and body of Christ being in us.

Ferris Bueller · Jul 1, 2022

Marymog said:
I also find this: There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism. What is your doctrine on that passage?

Baptism saves in the very way that Peter means that. What water baptism does NOT do is make a person righteous (it does not justify them). That happens entirely on the basis of one's faith in God's promise of a Son, just as it was for Abraham, our example of how we, too, are justified (made righteous) entirely on the basis of faith in God's promise of a Son apart from works (Romans 4:6, Romans 4:23-24).

Philip James · Jul 1, 2022

Brakelite said:
Not this one...

Unless you claim that persecuting, killing, and confiscating the property of heretics was the fruit of those apostolic communities that populated every country from Britain to China by the 10th century.

Hmm.. Tell that to the Church in Alexandria..

If Rome is your stumbling block, then come to the Feast with Alexandria! Come with Constantinople! But come!

Pax et Bonum

Philip James · Jul 1, 2022

Ferris Bueller said:
No, not of necessity. The Bible itself is clear that the church would be corrupted soon after the departure of Paul:

"29I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them." Acts 20:29-30

So, the corruption of the church is at least 2000 years old. Therefore, there is no argument to be made that things were right in the time immediately following the beginning of the New Testament church that we should, of necessity, believe what they believed then.

Hi Ferris,

Read that bit again.. 'draw disciples away after them'

Compare with John's 'they went out from us'

It is those who leave the community that 'draw others away' . why? Because not being able to teach their heresy in the Church the must need leave her to promote their false teaching..

If we cannot trust that the Holy Spirit has guided the Church for 2000 years, and that she has indeed 'not been overcome' then how can we trust anything she says including what is and what is not scripture...

To suggest that the Church can fall into error and have to be reestablished by men with no authority but their own, who take our sacred texts and try to reverse engineer the Church is madness..

It is nothing but hubris to believe that the Spirit is revealing the Truth to us and that our brothers and sisters of the last 2000 years walked in darkness..

Hubris and pride.. Non serviam, the cry of the enemy..

But not surprisingly foretold long ago..

Why do the nations protest and the peoples grumble in vain?

Kings on earth rise up and princes plot together against the LORD and his anointed:

"Let us break their shackles and cast off their chains!"

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

ScottA · Jul 1, 2022

Philip James said:
You did indeed, and I pointed out that those same scriptures show men leading others away from the community. One must be in union with the Truth to apostise from it..

The Church herself cannot apostize for the Church and Christ are one..

Okay, I see how you mean that, that some have disqualified themselves even to be called the church. But that does not mean that what Peter foretold of "false teachers among you" is not speaking of the church...just as Jesus chose the apostles and one was a devil, and the seven churches were not all perfect as Christ is perfect. Such is the dividing of his sheep from the goats.

Philip James said:
The daily sacrifice of the Old Covenenant is ended indeed.. That of the New Covenant will go on till the end of time..

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body."

Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you,

for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins

All are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

What sacrifice remains that you could possibly be referring to? For there is only one:

Hebrews 10:12
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Philip James · Jul 1, 2022

ScottA said:
What sacrifice remains that you could possibly be referring to? For there is only one:

Hi Scott,

This one:

For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

And yes, it is all One!

Through Him,
And with Him,
And in Him,

In the unity of the Holy Spirit,

All Glory and Honour are Yours,
Almighty Father!

Forever and ever!

Pax et Bonum

ScottA · Jul 1, 2022

Philip James said:
Hi Scott,

This one:

For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

And yes, it is all One!

Through Him,
And with Him,
And in Him,

In the unity of the Holy Spirit,

All Glory and Honour are Yours,
Almighty Father!

Forever and ever!

Pax et Bonum

Okay...just a translation difference:

Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name shall be great among the nations,” Says the Lord of hosts.

Ferris Bueller · Jul 1, 2022

Philip James said:
Hi Ferris,

Read that bit again.. 'draw disciples away after them'

Compare with John's 'they went out from us'

It is those who leave the community that 'draw others away' . why? Because not being able to teach their heresy in the Church the must need leave her to promote their false teaching..

If we cannot trust that the Holy Spirit has guided the Church for 2000 years, and that she has indeed 'not been overcome' then how can we trust anything she says including what is and what is not scripture...

To suggest that the Church can fall into error and have to be reestablished by men with no authority but their own, who take our sacred texts and try to reverse engineer the Church is madness..

It is nothing but hubris to believe that the Spirit is revealing the Truth to us and that our brothers and sisters of the last 2000 years walked in darkness..

Hubris and pride.. Non serviam, the cry of the enemy..

But not surprisingly foretold long ago..

Why do the nations protest and the peoples grumble in vain?

Kings on earth rise up and princes plot together against the LORD and his anointed:

"Let us break their shackles and cast off their chains!"

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

I guess you don't seem to understand the Catholic organization is the corruption that Paul was talking about in The Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30.

Ferris Bueller · Jul 1, 2022

Philip James said:
If we cannot trust that the Holy Spirit has guided the Church for 2000 years, and that she has indeed 'not been overcome' then how can we trust anything she says including what is and what is not scripture.

Wow, what a loaded statement, lol.

The church is not an official organization. It is the sum total of all individual believers, no matter where they are on the globe and what organization they are associated with, that has been and always will be guided by the Holy Spirit. True believers who can and will endure to the end can never be overcome. Christ said the gates of Hades can not prevail against the church. So the true people of God remain untouched, all the while the various organizations of men can, and have been corrupted.

So stop looking at 'religion' and the organizations of men to quantify the church. I know that is the natural tendency of man to do that, but you have to learn that there is no official organization representing God in the world today as there was in the time of the Apostles. At this time in history when the leaven has almost worked it's way all through the dough, we don't look to an organization for trustworthy words. Together, believers read the original writings of Moses and the Apostles, discuss them and lean on the discernment of the Holy Spirit each believer has to guide them into truth. And that's going to happen in varying levels and at different paces among us, just as the Bible describes:

"11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ, 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ Himself, who is the head. 16From Him the whole body, fitted and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love through the work of each individual part." Ephesians 4:11-16

But the Catholics reject this doctrine, and the equally valid doctrine of individual conscience (Romans 14), claiming that if you are what Paul describes above you are not a part of the 'real' church, you are a rebel. That's cult mentality.

amigo de christo · Jul 1, 2022

Ferris Bueller said:
I guess you don't seem to understand the Catholic organization is the corruption that Paul was talking about in Acts 20:29-30.

Yes indeed my friend . We must do all now to contend for the true faith and warn and remind all to flee such places
Let all learn the simplicity in Christ JESUS and be hearers and doers of all He did teach . Stay planted in those bibles .

amigo de christo · Jul 1, 2022

Ferris Bueller said:
Wow, what a loaded statement, lol.

The church is not an official organization. It is the sum total of all individual believers, no matter where they are on the globe and what organization they are associated with, that has been and always will be guided by the Holy Spirit. True believers who can and will endure to the end can never be overcome. Christ said the gates of Hades can not prevail against the church. So the true people of God remain untouched, all the while the various organizations of men can, and have been corrupted.

So stop looking at 'religion' and the organizations of men to quantify the church. I know that is the natural tendency of man to do that, but you have to learn that there is no official organization representing God in the world today as there was in the time of the Apostles. At this time in history when the leaven has almost worked it's way all through the dough, we don't look to an organization for trustworthy words. Together, believers read the original writings of Moses and the Apostles, discuss them and lean on the discernment of the Holy Spirit each believer has to guide them into truth. And that's going to happen in varying levels and at different paces among us, just as the Bible describes:

"11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ, 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ Himself, who is the head. 16From Him the whole body, fitted and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love through the work of each individual part." Ephesians 4:11-16

But the Catholics reject this doctrine, and the equally valid doctrine of individual conscience (Romans 14), claiming that if you are what Paul describes above you are not a part of the 'real' church, you are a rebel. That's cult mentality.

And even paul said all leaders must be tested . But the CC teaches we cannot even know the truth lest they reveal it .
Evidentally paul knew true believers had the GOD given SPIRIT by which they would be able to test . IF they can test
it also means they can learn . Any man who gets up and tells someone , YE CANT KNOW IT lest I INTERPRET IT ,
MY ADVICE IS FLEE and NEVER LOOK back . And take any and all with you that you can grab as you are running out the door .
That is a recipe for POWER and CONTROL and it has worked on many . Ever notice how that insititutoin
has so much money and etc , IT aint even KNOWN . POWER and CONTROL .
Course many others use this tactic in many ways . I mean we got the bennys and kennys and scores of others
making air ways , buying planes . And THEY TOO say THUS SAYETH THE LORD , ONLY it AINT THE LORD whose kingdom they are building
ITS THEIR OWN KINGDOMS .

Philip James · Jul 1, 2022

ScottA said:
Okay...just a translation difference:

Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name shall be great among the nations,” Says the Lord of hosts.

What pure offering do we have to offer?
That which our Father, in His Goodness has given us, the Lamb of God, Who once was slain, and now lives forever..

Is there anything else besides the sacrifice of the Eucharist that could fulfill Malachi 1:11 ?

From the very beginning of the Church, our brothers and sisters have recognized this:

1. On the Lord's Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure;
2. But let none who has a quarrel with his fellow join in your meeting until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice be not defiled.
3. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord, "In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great king," saith the Lord, "and my name is wonderful among the heathen."

~The Didache~

Pax et Bonum

Spotting Heretics

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