@RedFan
Horatius Bonar wrote this Scriptural sentiment:
"Done is the work that saves!
Once and for ever done.
Finished the righteousness
That clothes th’unrighteous one.
The love that blesses us below
Is flowing freely to us now."
What is the Price Jesus Paid?
- Thread starter robert derrick
- Start date
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Horatius Bonar wrote this Scriptural sentiment:
"Done is the work that saves!
Once and for ever done.
Finished the righteousness
That clothes th’unrighteous one.
The love that blesses us below
Is flowing freely to us now."
So, your 'answer' is not what Scripture says, but your opinion that my statement is 'silly.'
I can see you have no love for truth and Scripture, so what's the point?
"It is Finished" has nothing to do with payment.
Strange how it took 2000 years for people to suddenly "see" it!
Horatius Bonar is in the Bible? His poem/hymn is now Scripture?
I see that the tail is wagging the dog.
While I agree that one could look at it that way, if they assumed that a payment existed before they read it.
There was a 'price' or a 'cost,' but no "payment'" is implied. Imagine how I could quote dozens of passages about Atonement that say NOTHING, or give any implications of payment, or by not doing so, "imply" that it was not a payment... would that be "proof?"
It is best to base one's beliefs on what God says, and not what He never says.
And without a singular verse to validate 'Payment,' interlinears translate it correctly as "acquire." Whether that is done by stealing, purchasing, accidentally finding, given to as a gift, traded or bartered for it, or by or any other possible way of "acquiring" something, is a matter of context, not assumption. You have no Biblical support to twist "acquire" or "purchase" to mean "payment" unless you already have Scripture proof that God calls the Atonement of Christ a "payment."
Yet, note that it is YOU that is convoluting "purchase" with "payment" for they are not the same in Greek or English, are they! You choose to neglect the words and their meanings but are twisting them to your own purposes, as you say... your 'private interpretation.'
You complain about the English usage of paid and purchase, which you full well know are used with different meanings. Can you admit that whatever the English meaning of words are, has no influence on the Greek or meaning the Scriptures give it? In what way were we bought with a price? This is in reference to the high "cost" that the Son of God took upon himself in order for us to be saved. The same terminology is mentioned every Memorial Day. Much talk occurs about the high "cost" of freedom, and how many "paid the price." Ask yourself, if only one person died on our side in World War Two, could we not still say that the individual that died "paid the price"? It is not that 200,000 deaths "purchased" freedom in any way. If only199,999 died, would we have lost the war? You see, the Atonement is not a mere commercial transaction where one Christ does not equal the value of "X" number of sinners. There was a cost, but nowhere in all of Scripture does it say it was a 'payment.'
Sorry to offend you. That wasn't my intent. I apologize.
And you're right, there is no point in our debating whether the Scriptures contain any ambiguity. If you believe that they don't, I'll never get you to change your mind.
Contradicting Scripture? Are you speaking of "sacrifice" in the Bible where it NEVER correlates or is stated to be a "payment?" I think that anyone that would impose such meaning on sacrifice when the Bible never does, is walking on thin ice. One should love what God says more than what they want Him to say.
Did I suggest otherwise? I said I can't imagine what YOU think 1 Cor. 6:20 and 1 Cor. 7:23 mean by our being "bought with a price," if not payment.
So, you admit that you have no Scriptural justification for what you believe and teach about the Atonement of Christ. Admission of failure is a great first step!
Yet, you still failed to discover a single verse that asserts without any doubt that Jesus "paid" anything on the Cross, and with that, all the terms you present are with the assumption that a payment exists when it does not.
Propitiation, reconciliation, justification, redemption, being brought near, putting away sin, suffering, dying for sin, and offering oneself up, is not payment. This I hope will narrow the field to the more important passages.
Doesn’t the Bible say that we were "bought" with a price? That we are a "purchased" possession? That were "redeemed" and there was a "ransom?" This is without a doubt true! But none of the above statements say, show, or prove in any way that Jesus was punished or that there was a "payment for sins."
I have already posted a response to what we would call, "paying the price" and "bought with a price."
We are His "purchase." This also says nothing of a fictitious payment to the devil, the Father, or for sins. By the self-sacrifice of Jesus, people who are hopelessly lost on their own, became savable because of His death. Anyone that is ultimately saved is due to His atonement. His death on the cross gives Him the rights to whatever fruit it bears.
Some see the term of "redeem" as positing the necessity of a payment. The fact that the exchange of His life for those that believe explains this redemption. There was a cost, and it was not a payment for sins. Payment for sins can be assumed if it is read into this passage, but it cannot be drawn from it. Ransom can also be seen as an exchange without interjecting non-Biblical ideas of payment into it. In order to draw the meaning of a commercial payment from these passages, one has to have clear statements that the Sacrifice of Jesus was a "payment." Without such, one can only assume and try to reverse engineer Scripture to arrive at their assumptions.
A few points about your assumptions: Our sin is presented as a debt or deficit to God, yet there is no "sin debt" in Scripture as a "thing." Drawing from an assumption, you say that it was "to be paid to God."
1. Show me where Scripture declares that Atonement pays a "sin debt."
2. Show me where such a payment is said to be paid to God.
3. Show me how Jesus is not God/ where He "paid Himself."
4. You refer to 'sacrifice." Where in Scripture is it said that sacrifice is a "payment."
John 19:30 says nothing of payment. As a figure of speech, "He wondrously paid the price" is not the same as commercially paying for something, and many do not use it as if God was "paid off" or paying the devil a ransom. Many use suggestive metaphors of "cost" then further down the line apply strict quid pro quos in their application.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
At the cost of Jesus' sacrificial death and the shedding of His innocent blood, God the Father is now able to win souls back to Himself, from the judgment of eternal death, at no cost to us, but to believe in the power of Jesus' blood as the full atonement for our redemption*.
By our faith in Christ, we are redeemed* from eternal death.
I don't think that you fully grasp how much that both God the Father and God the Son "sacrificed" to save us. Jesus is no longer only God the Son, but rather is now also the "God-Man", (the very first of what Adam lost), the Eternal Living "House of God".
We, who are His body, are the many garnished "mansions", that are being "placed" within Him through faith.
* Note:
KJV-1 Peter 1:18-19
"Redeemed"
Strong's Number - G3084
Greek: λυτρόω
Transliteration: lutroō
Pronunciation: loo-tro'-o
Definition: From G3083; to ransom (literally or figuratively): - redeem.
KJV Usage: redeem (3x).
Occurs: 4
In verses: 3
Figuratively... definitely emphasizes the cost. Atonement is not so much that God "sacrificed" to save us, but that Jesus was "The" Sacrifice. If we look at the two passages that speak to ransom and redeeming, to "buy back," we can see that the Church went through a period where a literal Ransom to Satan was viewed as Atonement. This was not as popular and far reaching as many imply, yet it was definitely an early theory in the Church.
Ransom is not literal in a way that there was a commercial swap, but descriptive, not of Atonement, but the result of Atonement. If it were literal, the Bible would tell us "WHO" was holding us hostage, and what was given to them that we may be redeemed.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
If you have children, then you might relate to this following fictitious analogy:
Your neighbor's child is drowning in a pond, infested with Alligators. You and your only son, are the only two people available to save the drowning child.
You can't swim, but your son can. You agree with your son, that he is the only means by which your neighbor's child can be saved.
Your son dives into the water and rescues the child, but ten feet from shore an Alligator sinks his teeth deep into your son's thigh, tearing away muscle, ligaments, creating an enormous amount of nerve damage, that ultimately causes your son to lose his leg upto his hip.
As a father, is that how you wanted to recieve your son back to you? In the sacrifice of your son, that you both agreed on, what did you sacrifice as the father?
John.3[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
But it's not 'alligators in the pond' in the Bible but sacrifice for reconciliation with God. In your story, if the 'son' was more skilled, he may have avoided getting bitten. Hypotheticals leave the door open too far and do not prove what the Bible says or does not say.
The fact of an accomplished sacrifice is Biblical Atonement, not so much the process of getting there is what matters.
The fact of an accomplished sacrifice is Biblical Atonement, not so much the process of getting there is what matters.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
You missed the point of what God the Father gave.
Jesus is called "The Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world".
The sacrifice of His Son, was just as important for the Father, as it is for us.
For without it, God could never permanently dwell within man that He created.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
YHWH God has provided a way for us to be delivered from the curse of sin and death by means of his Son, Jesus Christ. The Bible teaches that by his death, Jesus provided a ransom. A ransom is the price paid to release someone. The price Jesus paid was the value of his perfect human life. (Matthew 20:28.) When Jesus willingly surrendered his right to everlasting life on earth as a perfect human, he opened the way for Adam and Eve offspring to regain all that Adam and Eve had lost. Adam and Eve lost a paradise earth with eternal life on it. What Adam and Eve offspring inherited was, sin and death, and imperfect human governments that rule mankind unmercifully and unjustly.
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