John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?
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We don't need a '5-part test' we just need to read and believe the bible:
John 1:1-5
The Word (Jesus) Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God. 2 He (Jesus) was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him (Jesus) all things were made; without him (Jesus) nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him (Jesus) was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:14
The Word (Jesus) became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
it was Jesus and do not let anybody tell you different. Certain cults do not believe that Jesus is God but that fact is at the heart of all mainstream Christian churches.
He was not "pretending" to pray. The "man/flesh tabernacle" really did pray to the "Father that DWELLETH IN HIM"....
“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10)
Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. As a man, hunger and thirst and prayed. As God, he forgave sin.
God, which spoke to Moses through a burning bush, overshadowed Mary and she conceived a seed. He simultaneously inhabits that seed AND remains in heaven (omnipresent). When Mary gives birth, we now have SPIRIT become FLESH. That bouncing baby boy is the ALMIGHTY manifest in the flesh. That is how and why Jesus can say, "the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." ... and also said "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father."
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Hi Jack,
It is a “WHAT” that became flesh.
The WHAT is Gods Word.
* Same as Your word of truth is in you, comes forth out from you, yet remains in you...
Same with God.
Numerous times in the OT we read...God said, God spoke...
In Isa 55: we learn something more specific..about Gods WORD...a foreshadow...prophecy.
Gods Word in His mouth, out of His mouth, remains in His mouth. IS God.
John 10:
[30] I and my Father are one.
Isa 55:
[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
We also learn God prepared a “BODY” for “His Word”.
A particular KIND of Body, in the likeness AS a man, a Jewish man, where God sent it, that it accomplished Gods intent, then returned to God.
Heb 10
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Luke 1
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Holy thing= Gods Word)
(Sent to a virgin womb= Jew woman, betrothed to a Jew man of the House of David)
John 16;
[27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
John 8:
[23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 19:
[28] After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
[29] Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
** FINISHED highlighted, meaning “certain things” were ACCOMPLISH-ED in those days.
** DONE becomes highlighted, meaning “further certain things” shall be ACCOMPLISH-ED in future days.
Rev 21:
[6] And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
^ Divisions ENDED...Separations accomplished.
Father/Son....One God
Light/dark.....only Light
With/without....only With
Up heaven/down earth....barrier open heaven & earth, heavenly
Good/Evil.......only Good
Love/Hate......only Love
Etc.
Hope that give you something to ponder.
Glory to God,
Taken
@Taken Great verses there. I think since verses such as Malachi 3.1 speak of the Messenger of the Covenant as a Person - gloriously - we can safely speak of Who became flesh and not only what.
IS a what, appears as a He.
It is suitable for you to send your word forth out of your mouth, orally, or in text or perhaps via a puppet as a ventriloquist ...
God BEING a spirit, can appear as whatever (a manKIND of thing, an animalKIND of thing, a bush planKIND of thing) and speak.
- We see man mimicking via media, electronics...Appearance of talking animals, talking plants.
BTW, I do have a ventriloquist doll, am fair at talking without lip movement....fun for kids. My youngest deaf child, likes the “doll”, the movements, but ofcourse very compromised for lip reading.
According to the original Greek, John 1:14 actually says, "...and the word tabernacled in us..."
In the OT God first tabernacled in a tent. Later He tabernacled in the Temple. Now He tabernacles in us. God always promised He'd do that. As you pointed out, John declared the Word was God. No need to change "Word" into "Jesus" when it doesn't say that. This way, we don't have to explain how Jesus is the Father. Remember, I showed in the OP that both Jesus and Paul said the Father is the only true God. I do believe the trinity correctly calls Jesus the Son, not the Father, so Jesus can't be the one true God. Very simple and straightforward.
The microscopic, pre-embryonic of Jesus' origins was not a man yet, but an embryo under development from the egg cell of Mary being fertilized. At that point, "God" was only visible under a microscope.
"God" first had to mate with Mary's egg cell by creating the sperm cell, which qualified Jesus some day as the son of God/son of man.
All the FULLNESS of the Godhead is only in Jesus.
Col 2:9 is exclusive to his body.
We are given the Spirit by measure.
Hey Jack welcome to the site..
Now to expose the classic circular logic used by at least Trinitarians who endlessly traverse in an infinite loop, in their minds between John 1:1 and 14 and back again. This faulty mindset and ignorance has caused so much consternation, division and strife within the community of believers in Christ over the many centuries. The simple short version:
Jesus /Yahshua was conceived a human male indeed who dwelt amongst/with his people. He was born for this mission, of their salvation through his sacrifice for atonement of sin and its power in our lives. And the disciples and others witnessed his glory, of his resurrection from the dead by his Father, as a glory that can only be given by his God, his Father. He ascended to God his Father and became immortal indeed. He opened the narrow path and gate of eternal life for his sheep to enter into who his Father brought to him.
The central issue that should never had been an issue, except for rigid pagan stubbornness, and the ignorant ideas spawned many centuries ago is the gross misuse of the Greek transliterated term 'logos.' It is used over a couple of hundred times in the NT and never once means a person or being, except for this special case to lie about God's intrinsic attribute that he alone owns. 'Logos' in short means God the Father's divine expression and voice or word as his method of communicating and executing his purpose and plan for and to mankind along with his power of his divine and Holy Spirit. You know he used this logos or word to execute his plan and purpose solo, until his Son, Yahshua. He created all, of any material visible or invisible, all that came to exist.
When his Son was born on earth the same logos or the Father's expression or voice became his Son's voice and expression. The word became flesh as it says. Yahshua became the voice or word of God his Father and not that his Son was actually called the word or was the word. This is pure ignorance! Grammatically, logically and contextually that would be impossible to do and understand and yet folks that believe this bold-faced lie will condemn others as heretics and being part of cults. We cannot just alter the meaning of scripture to suit and support a false flawed doctrine that mocks the real Father and the real Son and their very words and actions.....
Blessings, APAK
LOL! The answer is not to your liking, but that matters not.
Yes, we all know what you have... "found."
Jesus is very clear in John 14 in particular. Jesus's and the Spirit's both having been sent by God is directly relevant... and indisputable. To the rest of your post regarding "challenge A," God shares His glory with no one... but the Father, the Son, and the Spirit all possess it with each other, in perfect unity, from eternity to eternity.
By all means, though, please feel free to continue to flail away.
Grace and peace to you.
Again, reading Jesus's words in John 14, we count, "one, two, three." Actually saying the word "three" is wholly unnecessary.
Grace and peace to you.[/QUOTE]
The next challenge, (C) above, is mostly confined to the OT Scriptures...
Ah, so you're shaping the "challenge" to your liking...
...my scriptural challenge here, (C), is to
Please find a clear, direct, undisputed scriptural statement which is equivalent to 'Jesus is the Christ' or 'YHWH is the Father' (which really are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declares:
'YHWH is the Son,' or 'YHWH is the Firstborn,' or, 'YHWH is the Messiah (or "Christ"), or any other equally clear, undisputed statement (or personal name) that 'Jesus is YHWH' (the only God according to scripture).
All answered above. If Christ is ~ or Christ and the Spirit are ~ sent by the Father... and they indisputably are... Then this "challenge" is answered in full.
NOTE: "undisputed" is a ridiculous requirement, because there is always going to be some dispute regarding anything and everything.
Grace and peace to you.
With the exception of John the Baptist, God did give holy spirit by measure to certain folks before Pentecost. After Pentecost it is Christ in us (Col 1:27) without any indication that it is only part of Christ.
So either not all of the Godhead dwelt in Christ, or not all of Christ dwells in us. Is one of those what you are saying?
Also, it's also worth noting Col 2:10. The Word "complete" in that verse is the same root word as "fullness" in verse 9. Do you see any relevance there to the discussion?
That Jesus the Son is undisputed, even between you and I. And building on the previous answers ~ even just the first is sufficient ~ that Jesus is sent by the Father implies His eternality, glory, deity, and essence with the Father (the same is true regarding the Spirit). So, Jesus is the Son, and Jesus is the Son, ergo... God the Son.
And we can look at Philippians 2 again. I know the JW "take" on it, but Jesus is in the form of (morphe' in the Greek) God and in the form of (again, morphe' in the Greek) man. English has no exact equivalent for the Greek morphe.' Unlike "form" in English, morphe' does not mean "shape." It is a philosophical term that means "the outward expression of an inner essence."
Grace and peace to you.
This is the same "challenge," really as the fourth, 'D,' immediately above. So the answer is the same.
Grace and peace to you.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
The Triune GOD is how I perceive GOD. You are wasting your time trying to convince me otherwise. I've thought through this concept with the guidance of the Holy Spirit for 31 years. I am baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit - thank you very much!
Well, I never see "God the Son" in the scriptures, but I understand you to be saying that Jesus is the son, not the Father. Both Paul and Jesus himself, said that the Father is the only true God. How then is the son God?
That's quite a leap to say that God sending Jesus implies Jesus is God. Geez...doesn't one person sending another usually mean two people?
I guess all in all, you really do shun logic. How do you make sense out of anything?
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