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Ferris Bueller

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1 John is written to Christians who are under the leadership of the men of The Church who have already taught them the Truth.
But you're missing the point that they know it's the truth that they were taught because of the anointing within them.
 

Ferris Bueller

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Lol....Ok Ferris.

What is my definition of The Church?
I've said it at least twice in this conversation. I'm being patient.
The church is the sum total of believers, not the sum total of people who attend the one and only correct denomination. That does not exist at this time in church history. It hasn't since the time of the Apostles.
 
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Marymog

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I am assuming your are referring to the Roman Catholic Church (forgive me if I am wrong).

So where in the Bible are you taught to pray to anyone but unto God and Christ?

Where in the Bible are the instructions on church decore (mimicking the instruments and procedures of the Old Testament temple)?

Where are the instructions regarding church garments for the church officials (Pope, Cardinals, etc.)?

Last I checked the New Testament records no event where God spoke to any Apostles with these specifics; as when God instructed Moses on the tabernacle measurements and garment designs for the Levites.

All these things are extra biblical.
Yes, I am referring to The Catholic Church which has it's seat in Rome.

The Church does not teach us to pray to anyone but God and Christ.

There are no instructions in Scripture that define what a church official is to wear or how a building that people gather in to worship God is to be decorated.

I suspect (I haven't studied up on it) The Church does these things because they are holding to Tradition: 2 Thessalonians 2:15

With that said: A priest wearing a fancy garment or a Church built to honor God with fancy decorations in it has nothing to do with the teachings (doctrine/dogma/truth) of The Church and those teachings being false.

So, I gave you grace and I answered all your questions. NOW answer mine: The Church is infallible...just like Scripture says. I have found that Church.

Have you?
 

Michiah-Imla

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Show me in Scripture where it says The Church is the sum total of all believers in their various stages of knowledge and growth and I will join you!

“And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.” (Ephesians 1:22-23)

“For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.” (Ephesians 5:30)

“Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.” (1 Corinthians 12:27)
 

Marymog

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I've said it at least twice in this conversation. I'm being patient.
The church is the sum total of believers, not the sum total of people who attend the one and only correct denomination. That does not exist at this time in church history. It hasn't since the time of the Apostles.
you said my definition of the church is flawed. So I asked you: What is MY definition of The Church? Or what do you believe is MY definition!
 

EloyCraft

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No one owns the truth.

Who is being kept from the truth other than those who neglect it in exchange for ear scratching sermons?
Jesus is Truth and He has given Himself to His Church. Truth does belong to the community that has surrounded and worshipped Him since The beginning. You do believe Jesus gave the Apostles an infallible teaching. That a bride and groom offer each other the gift of themselves and that he belongs to her and she Him?
 
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Michiah-Imla

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The Church does not teach us to pray to anyone but God and Christ.

So why is the “Hail Mary” a thing in your church?

I have found that Church.

Have you?

No, I have not.

Noah wouldn’t have found one either in his days. I guess you can say he had to build his own church.

And we are in the days of Noah all over again…
 

Michiah-Imla

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Jesus is Truth and He has given Himself to His Church. Truth does belong to the community that has surrounded and worshipped Him since The beginning. You do believe Jesus gave the Apostles an infallible teaching. That a bride and groom offer each other the gift of themselves and that he belongs to her and she Him?

Yes.

I suppose we (his body of believers) own the truth in a sense. Sure.
 

Marymog

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“And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.” (Ephesians 1:22-23)

“For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.” (Ephesians 5:30)

“Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.” (1 Corinthians 12:27)
Yes, we are members of His body, The Church, and He is the head of the members of The Church.

The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. If your theory were correct then all the members of The Church will be the pillars and foundation of truth. Since each member holds their own truth that creates multiple truths and we know there are not multiple truths so your theory is not logical.

The Church decides who is to be treated as a pagan or tax collector. If your theory were true then that means each Christian can decide if another Christian is to be treated as a pagan or tax collector. That makes your theory illogical and not based on Scripture.
 
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Marymog

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So why is the “Hail Mary” a thing in your church?
The "Hail Mary" is based on Scripture:

1. Hail Mary, full of Grace Luke 1:28 (Hail, full of Grace) The Angel Gabriel greets Mary with very respectful greeting used for royalty. The text doesn’t say “Mary” after Hail but it is implied. Gabriel then proclaims Mary full of Grace (full of God’s own life and love)
2. The Lord is with You Luke 1:28 (The Lord is with you) This is word for word. The Angel Gabriel said that the Lord is with Mary; she is full of his Grace, his own life. h
3. Blessed are you among Women Luke 1:41 (Blessed are you among women) Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit; she is inspired by the 3rd person of the Blessed Trinity to proclaim that Mary is the most blessed among all women.
4. And Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus Luke 1:42 (and blessed is the fruit of your womb) Elizabeth still inspired by the Holy Spirit proclaims that the fruit of Mary’s womb, the developing Jesus, is blessed. The text doesn’t say “Jesus” after womb, but it is implied, the fruit of her womb is Jesus.
5. Holy Mary, Mother of God Luke 1:43 (And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?) Mary is full of God’s grace; this would make her holy. Mary is the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ who is the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity. Since Jesus is God this makes her the mother of God. She is the mother of the God-Man Jesus, not the mother of the Trinity.
6. Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death James 5:16 (Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects) James tells Christians to pray for one another. All the baptized are members of the body of Christ (1Cor 12:12-14), therefore it is right to pray for other members of the body. James goes on to say that the prayers of the righteous have great power. What human (other then Jesus) is more righteous then the Blessed Mother. Though she is in heaven she still hears the prayers of her children on Earth and intercedes for them.

Do you have a problem with repeating Scripture?
 

Ferris Bueller

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Show me in Scripture where it says The Church is the sum total of all believers in their various stages of knowledge and growth and I will join you!
15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?
19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? 1 Corinthians 6:15-19

6But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are His house, if we hold firmlyc to our confidence and the hope of which we boast. Hebrews 3:6

16Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells inb you? 17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:27-28

13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ Himself, who is the head. Ephesians 4:13
See, you have to stop defining the church as the place where believers gather. The church is the believers themselves; believers who have the seal of the Holy Spirit in them and are growing up into unity of faith, knowledge and the stature of Christ, not starting out in it. That means we have differences along the way. And yet we are the church, the body of Christ, nonetheless, despite those differences. And so the true church is not defined by unity of faith and doctrine as the Catholics assert. It is defined by who is in the body of Christ by virtue of their faith in God, growing up and maturing into the knowledge and stature of Christ. You can't see this because you've been using the wrong definition of 'the church'.
 
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Michiah-Imla

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Since each member holds their own truth that creates multiple truths and we know there are not multiple truths so your theory is not logical.

Any member holding their own truth is a heretic. Every member must adhere to the word of God, the holy scriptures. Then unification in truth can be achieved.

The Church decides who is to be treated as a pagan or tax collector.

Only if that church is basing their decision on what the Bible says.

each Christian can decide if another Christian is to be treated as a pagan or tax collector

Yes, if it is:

based on Scripture.
 

Marymog

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No one owns the truth.
So then how will we ever be set free: John 8:32

How will we ever know the certainty of the things we have been taught if no one knows the truth? Luke 1:4

How can the church be the pillar and foundation of truth if no one knows the truth?

What you believe and teach is opposite of what Scripture says
 
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EloyCraft

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No one owns the truth.
The bride does and she is not ashamed.

Who is being kept from the truth other than those who neglect it in exchange for ear scratching sermons?
According to you it's being kept from everyone since it doesn't belong to those who know it.

I don't believe a doctrine that can't claim to be the Faith handed down from the Apostles. If you believe that Truth doesn't belong to Christ's Church your Church isn't like the Church Jesus started.
 

Marymog

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15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?
19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? 1 Corinthians 6:15-19

6But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are His house, if we hold firmlyc to our confidence and the hope of which we boast. Hebrews 3:6

16Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells inb you? 17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:27-28

13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ Himself, who is the head. Ephesians 4:13
See, you have to stop defining the church as the place where believers gather. The church is the believers themselves; believers who are growing up into unity of faith, knowledge and the stature of Christ, not starting out in it. That means we have differences along the way. And yet we are the church, the body of Christ, despite those differences. And so the true church is not defined by unity of faith and doctrine as the Catholics assert. It is defined by who is in the body of Christ by virtue of their faith in God, growing up and maturing into the knowledge and stature of Christ. You've been using the wrong definition of 'the church'.
I never defined The Church as a place where people gather. If I did quote me!

NONE, not one, of those passages say that The Church is the sum total of all believers.

Here are two passages from Scripture that define The Church: It is the pillar and foundation of truth AND we are to go to The Church to settle our differneces (Matthew 18)

Now, if you noticed, in Matthew 18 once church member went to another church member to settle their difference. They disagreed. They then went to get 2 other church members to figure out who was right and who was wrong. The one still disagreed with the others. They then went to THE CHURCH for the final decision.

It wasn't the church disagreeing with the church and they went to get 2 other churches to settle the difference with one church that was disagreeing with the other churches and then they went to another CHURCH that settled their difference. Each and everyone of them in that discussion was NOT the pillar and foundation of truth. Can you now see how what you have been taught is wrong?