The True Church vs The Apostate Church

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2021
2,283
1,283
113
68
Monroe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As I see it, the dividing line between the True Church and the Apostate Church is the Cross of Christ.

The majority of the Churches in America today no longer preach the Cross or sing of the Blood that cleanses from all sin.

Joel Osteen said his Church will not speak of the Cross or the Blood, they don't want to insult anyone. Kenneth Copland said the Cross was the biggest defeat in human history, and accomplished nothing. He went on to say that Christ went to hell for 3 days as a sinner and God said that is enough, and Christ was saved and released.

It's not just the TV preachers, the majority of the Church world has departed from the foundation of Christianity, the Cross and the Blood.

It is my opinion that where you stand on the Cross and the Blood will determine if you are a member of the True Church or the Apostate Church.

Rev. 2:4-5

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

The "first love" that Christ speaks of is the Cross. Return to the Cross is His command!
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,621
2,335
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As I see it, the dividing line between the True Church and the Apostate Church is the Cross of Christ.

The majority of the Churches in America today no longer preach the Cross or sing of the Blood that cleanses from all sin.

Joel Osteen said his Church will not speak of the Cross or the Blood, they don't want to insult anyone. Kenneth Copland said the Cross was the biggest defeat in human history, and accomplished nothing. He went on to say that Christ went to hell for 3 days as a sinner and God said that is enough, and Christ was saved and released.

It's not just the TV preachers, the majority of the Church world has departed from the foundation of Christianity, the Cross and the Blood.

It is my opinion that where you stand on the Cross and the Blood will determine if you are a member of the True Church or the Apostate Church.

Rev. 2:4-5

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

The "first love" that Christ speaks of is the Cross. Return to the Cross is His command!

Yes, it's sad that some of our Christian leaders are so careless with their thoughts and words, and apparently think they are not in submission to anyone. Some humility and submitting ourselves to one another goes a long way to prevent the kind of confused theology we hear today.

That being said, we're all imperfect and need grace. And I hesitate to judge somebody as not a Christian simply because their theology stinks. If they trust in Christ as their Savior, and preach living in righteousness, then they're not against us--they're for us.

I really really like your wish to see the Church come back on fire and stick to true Christian teaching, not avoiding the stumbling block of the Cross. We should not be ashamed of the old rugged cross, nor deny the need for Christ's blood to atone for our sins. We must always confess his death for us as the means of atonement. Thank you!
 

Pearl

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Apr 9, 2019
11,341
17,174
113
Lancashire
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
As I see it, the dividing line between the True Church and the Apostate Church is the Cross of Christ.

The majority of the Churches in America today no longer preach the Cross or sing of the Blood that cleanses from all sin.

Joel Osteen said his Church will not speak of the Cross or the Blood, they don't want to insult anyone. Kenneth Copland said the Cross was the biggest defeat in human history, and accomplished nothing. He went on to say that Christ went to hell for 3 days as a sinner and God said that is enough, and Christ was saved and released.

It's not just the TV preachers, the majority of the Church world has departed from the foundation of Christianity, the Cross and the Blood.

It is my opinion that where you stand on the Cross and the Blood will determine if you are a member of the True Church or the Apostate Church.

Rev. 2:4-5

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

The "first love" that Christ speaks of is the Cross. Return to the Cross is His command!
This is appalling. How can it even be Church without the cross and the blood that that redeemed us and reconciles us with God. It is heresy to preach anything different.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jim B

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2021
2,283
1,283
113
68
Monroe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is appalling. How can it even be Church without the cross and the blood that that redeemed us and reconciles us with God. It is heresy to preach anything different.

It's the apostate church. A fake, a phony, who have left the Cross.

They are by far the majority.
 

Pearl

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Apr 9, 2019
11,341
17,174
113
Lancashire
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
It's the apostate church. A fake, a phony, who have left the Cross.

They are by far the majority.
I can hardly believe it but scripture does say that there will be a famine of hearing the word.

Amos 8:11
“The days are coming,” declares the Sovereign LORD, “when I will send a famine through the land— not a famine of food or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Charlie24

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2021
2,283
1,283
113
68
Monroe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I can hardly believe it but scripture does say that there will be a famine of hearing the word.

Amos 8:11
“The days are coming,” declares the Sovereign LORD, “when I will send a famine through the land— not a famine of food or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.

Great point!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pearl

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's the apostate church. A fake, a phony, who have left the Cross.

They are by far the majority.

How do you know that they are by far the majority? Have you extensively polled the churches?
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I can hardly believe it but scripture does say that there will be a famine of hearing the word.

Amos 8:11
“The days are coming,” declares the Sovereign LORD, “when I will send a famine through the land— not a famine of food or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.

You do realize that Amos was an Old Testament prophet, don't you? Taking a single verse from an OT prophet (prior to Christ) and applying it to modern times (two millennia after Christ) is poor exegesis.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2021
2,283
1,283
113
68
Monroe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How do you know that they are by far the majority? Have you extensively polled the churches?

I have friends from all denominations that I question, I read the church belief notes of denominations online.

I would say the supposed church that is apostate is 75%.

Based only on the preaching of the Cross and the Blood.
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have friends from all denominations that I question, I read the church belief notes of denominations online.

I would say the supposed church that is apostate is 75%.

Based only on the preaching of the Cross and the Blood.

The church is the body of Christ. Who are you to judge Christ?
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2021
2,283
1,283
113
68
Monroe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The church is the body of Christ. Who are you to judge Christ?

Hold on there Jim! The body of Christ is every believer in this world that is in Christ through His shed Blood. They are the True Church.

Then there are those who have departed from the Cross and the Blood that saves calling themselves the Church. Apostates they are, and whom I am referring.
 

Pearl

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Apr 9, 2019
11,341
17,174
113
Lancashire
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
You do realize that Amos was an Old Testament prophet, don't you? Taking a single verse from an OT prophet (prior to Christ) and applying it to modern times (two millennia after Christ) is poor exegesis.
Picky. It was prophecy. So are suggesting that OT prophecies are pointless today?
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, it's sad that some of our Christian leaders are so careless with their thoughts and words, and apparently think they are not in submission to anyone. Some humility and submitting ourselves to one another goes a long way to prevent the kind of confused theology we hear today.
....

Doesn't sound like he was talking about Christian leaders to me, but about FAKES, these that Lord Jesus warned about...

John 10:1
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
KJV

John 10:12-13
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
KJV
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,621
2,335
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Doesn't sound like he was talking about Christian leaders to me, but about FAKES, these that Lord Jesus warned about...

John 10:1
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
KJV

John 10:12-13
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
KJV

Yes, it *sounds* like that. And yet I'm also aware that criticizers love to take words out of context in order to "take down" vaunted leaders. I could, for example, see someone trying to explain how the common view of a "cross" has nothing to do with saving anyone, even if it is stated that Christ's cross "saves us." The argument would be that it is faith + the cross that saves, and not simply stating that a "cross" saves. In other words, knowledge and declarations of belief mean little if faith and revelation are not really present.

I'm not saying that's what these people mean, but I can see that kind of thing happening. And from my personal listening of these men, I find them to be believers, and not "fakes," no matter how bad their theological language. I would suggest they listen to others who complain in the right spirit, and recognize that language can be misleading. Then they can clear up the confusion by making explicit statements about their orthodoxy.
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hold on there Jim! The body of Christ is every believer in this world that is in Christ through His shed Blood. They are the True Church.

Then there are those who have departed from the Cross and the Blood that saves calling themselves the Church. Apostates they are, and whom I am referring.

Okay, thanks for the clarification.
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Picky. It was prophecy. So are suggesting that OT prophecies are pointless today?

Do you understand the principle of reductio ad absurdem? I said that you are misapplying a single verse in Amos and you extend what I wrote to mean that OT prophecies -- all of them -- are pointless today. If you can't discuss something more honestly than that then there is no point in discussing anything with you.

Now, once again: you are misapplying a single verse in Amos. You are taking a single verse from an OT prophet (prior to Christ) and applying it to modern times (two millennia after Christ). That is poor exegesis.
 

Pearl

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Apr 9, 2019
11,341
17,174
113
Lancashire
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Do you understand the principle of reductio ad absurdem? I said that you are misapplying a single verse in Amos and you extend what I wrote to mean that OT prophecies -- all of them -- are pointless today. If you can't discuss something more honestly than that then there is no point in discussing anything with you.

Now, once again: you are misapplying a single verse in Amos. You are taking a single verse from an OT prophet (prior to Christ) and applying it to modern times (two millennia after Christ). That is poor exegesis.
Oh, okay, perhaps I'm not as clever as you. Please forgive my ignorance of Latin phrases.
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh, okay, perhaps I'm not as clever as you. Please forgive my ignorance of Latin phrases.

It's not a matter of being clever or ignorance of Latin phrases. I said that you are misapplying a single verse from a single Old Testament prophet, interpreting to apply to modern times. That's what I mean, so why are you "dancing around" the subject?

Here is the verse: “The days are coming,” declares the Sovereign Lord, “when I will send a famine through the land— not a famine of food or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the Lord." Amos 8:11, NIV

Clearly, with the plethora of Bibles available and the transmission of the words of the Lord in churches, on TV, mass media, etc. there is no "famine of hearing the words of the Lord".

BTW, my preferred translation, the NET, has this as the translation of that verse: "Be certain of this, the time is coming,” says the Sovereign Lord, “when I will send a famine through the land— not a shortage of food or water but an end to divine revelation." Perhaps that is more what you mean.
 
Last edited:

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,230
113
North America
Here's a good verse from Amos (3.3) : "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

I guess the style of this verse is similar to many verses in the book of Proverbs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pearl