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Ferris Bueller

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you said my definition of the church is flawed. So I asked you: What is MY definition of The Church? Or what do you believe is MY definition!
Your definition is 'the Catholic organization'. It is not. It is the members of Christ's body, not an organizational construct of doctrine and practice.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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NONE, not one, of those passages say that The Church is the sum total of all believers.
Open thine eyes!

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:27-28
The church is the body of Christ and each of us who believe is a member of it, the body of Christ, the church. The church is not an organization of doctrinal beliefs and practices.
 
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EloyCraft

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Only if that church is basing their decision on what the Bible says.
The bible is misused if anyone without authority decides that. To be able to be certain whether or not a teaching contains error is to know it infallibly.
The Scriptures are not the primary expression of the Word on earth. The bible doesn't provide a foundation able to establish Church's. That is misusing it. Like using a wrench to hammer nails.
 

EloyCraft

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Awesome.
If this doesn't make it clear, nothing will.
That contains a measure of truth. But is that the whole Church? There was much more structure to the Church in the beginning. The Church you describe is not built on rock. It's built on mist. If it were built on rock it would be Incarnational like Jesus. He is the rock of Salvation because of the Incarnation right?
 

Michiah-Imla

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The bible is misused if anyone without authority decides that. To be able to be certain whether or not a teaching contains error is to know it infallibly.

The Bible contains doctrine.

You only need to hear and obey it.

Not once did any of the Apostles or even Christ himself make that ridiculous charge of “not knowing the scriptures infallibly” against any of their adversaries.

The bible doesn't provide a foundation able to establish Church

Yes it does.

It even contains instructions on how to behave in the church:

“These things write I unto thee… that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God” (1 Timothy 3:14-15)

Like using a wrench to hammer nails.

Bad analogy.

But the Roman Catholic Church is hammering nails without a hammer!

Do you have to know how to use a hammer infallibly in order to hammer nails?
 

EloyCraft

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So are you saying that the bride is keeping the truth away or hidden?

I’m not following you here…
She does teach it to anyone who wants it. You teach it died with the Apostles. Why or how the eternal truth became temporal doesn't make sense to me.
But in conclusion the truth falls on ears deadened by the false teaching that it is no longer taught.
 

Illuminator

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The Bible contains doctrine.

You only need to hear and obey it.
Not once did any of the Apostles or even Christ himself make that ridiculous charge of “not knowing the scriptures infallibly” against any of their adversaries.
Infallibility means teaching without error. Impeccability means living without sinning. Let's not confuse the two. John and Paul taught infallibly against the Gnostics. 1st and 2nd Peter are infallible encyclicals. I never met a sola scripturist that understood infallibility, trying to explain it to a "Bible alone" Christian is like talking to a wall. Let's suppose Satan were to somehow become Pope. He would do a lot of damage but he could not formally teach errors because the Holy Spirit would not let him. There are many indications in the Bible that God would protect His Church from teaching error. If you don't believe that, you don't believe the Bible.

Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 – this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 – the early Church is identified as the “Way” prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 – Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 – Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.
read more here: The Biblical Church - Scripture Catholic

Matt. to Rev. – we must also note that not all Christian doctrines are explicit in Scripture (for example, the dogma of the Blessed Trinity). However, infallibility is strongly inferred from the foregoing passages. Non-Catholic Christians should ask themselves why they accept the Church’s teaching on the three persons of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ in one divine person, and the New Testament canon of Scripture (all defined by the Catholic Church), but not other teachings regarding the Eucharist, Mary, the saints, etc.?

The Jerusalem Council certainly regarded its teachings as infallible, and guided by the Holy Spirit Himself. The records we have of it don’t even record much discussion about biblical prooftexts, and the main issue was circumcision (where there is a lot of Scripture to draw from). Paul accepted its authority and proclaimed its teachings (Acts 16:4).

You’re trying to set the Bible against the Church, which is typical Protestant methodology, and ultra-unbiblical. The Bible never does that. I’ve already given the example of the Jerusalem Council, which plainly shows the infallibility of the Church.

The Bible repeatedly teaches that the Church is indefectible; therefore, the hypothetical of rejecting the (one true, historic) Church, as supposedly going against the Bible, is impossible according to the Bible. It is not a situation that would ever come up, because of God’s promised protection.

What the Bible says is to reject those who cause divisions, which is the very essence of the onset of Protestantism: schism, sectarianism, and division. It is Protestantism that departed from the historic Church, which is indefectible and infallible (see also 1 Tim 3:15).
Dialogue with a Calvinist: Was Paul a "Lone Ranger"?
 

Michiah-Imla

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Infallibility means teaching without error.

Just tell people what the infallible Bible says. And what you say becomes infallible by virtue of repeating the holy scripture. Simple.

There are many indications in the Bible that God would protect His Church from teaching error. If you don't believe that, you don't believe the Bible.

Yet the Roman Catholic Church does teach error (along with many churches of every persuasion).

The Holy Bible above all is what anchors us to truth.
 

Jim B

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Just tell people what the infallible Bible says. And what you say becomes infallible by virtue of repeating the holy scripture. Simple.



Yet the Roman Catholic Church does teach error (along with many churches of every persuasion).

The Holy Bible above all is what anchors us to truth.

Yet you're not repeating the Holy Scripture here, but expressing your own thoughts.
 

Michiah-Imla

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Yet you're not repeating the Holy Scripture here, but expressing your own thoughts.

“These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority” (Titus 2:15)

“If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God” (1 Peter 4:11)

“And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.” (Colossians 4:16)

“I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.” (1 Thessalonians 5:27)
 

Illuminator

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Just tell people what the infallible Bible says. And what you say becomes infallible by virtue of repeating the holy scripture. Simple. Yet the Roman Catholic Church does teach error .
Always asserted, never proven.
The Holy Bible above all is what anchors us to truth.
The Bible doesn't teach the man made premise of "Bible alone" anywhere. All Catholic doctrine is derived, directly or indirectly, from the Holy Bible. There are no contradictions.

If the Bible alone is the sole rule of faith, then you must prove, by the Bible alone, that the teaching authority of the Church, and Tradition (as defined by Paul), is not necessary for sound teaching. That's what "Bible alone" implies. There's the challenge. Prove, by the Bible alone, that the teaching authority of the Church with Scripture and Tradition (another term misrepresented by "Bible alone" Christians) is not necessary for sound teaching.

8. Ephesians 4 Refutes the Protestant “Proof Text”
“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16–17).

This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency, which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church. Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14). And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:

(Eph. 4:11–15).

If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.
A Quick Ten-Step Refutation of Sola Scriptura
 
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Michiah-Imla

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The Bible doesn't teach the man made premise of "Bible alone" anywhere

“The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.” (Jeremiah 23:28)

What is the chaff (tradition of men) to the wheat (word of God)?

I’ll take the wheat, you can have the chaff if you like…

All Catholic doctrine is derived, directly or indirectly, from the Holy Bible. There are no contradictions.

Heresy springs forth from “indirect” doctrines not found expressly taught in scripture. The Hail Mary prayer is one of those superfluous indirect false doctrines.

Prove, by the Bible alone, that the teaching authority of the Church with Scripture and Tradition (another term misrepresented by "Bible alone" Christians) is not necessary for sound teaching.

When the church began in Paul’s day there was not a complete New Testament. So naturally Apostles and Teachers were more necessary then. Now we have the complete teaching in our Holy Bibles.

Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14).

“Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.” (2 Timothy 1:13-14)

Everything Paul spoke was written in his epistles. The doctrines are complete in the New Testament. No more Pastors and Teachers are needed. And when they are needed (were access to the written word is obstructed), their service ends at some point, it’s not perpetual:

“And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.” (Ephesians 4:11-14)

In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church

No …the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the word of God and those who preach it!

Wow, what power that must be! To teach extra biblical doctrines and to train the people to think that their “church” organization is equal to the Bible in authority!

And I am not a Protestant.

I am a Bible believing Christian!
 
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ScottA

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Your false charge of "exclusivity" gets demolished, and this your best response??? When was actual Authority rejected?
Matthew 16:17
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Immediately following this Jesus placed a fork in the path (Matthew 16:18-19) just as Moses had done with Israel, here:

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
After giving many examples of the kingdom of heaven and announcing the need to be born both of water and of the spirit of God, Jesus presented the church with a choice of following the path of the flesh which was that path of Israel, or in following that spiritual path that Christ was about to take (Matthew 16:18-19)--in other words, to continue as though He had changed nothing, or to follow Him, and like Him be changed.

The apostles looked for Him to return, but misunderstood just what it was that He had been preparing. Thus, the church fathers, not believing that He would actually come "quickly" and that what He has told them would "shortly come to pass", in their unbelief chose the path of flesh and of men...which you now call the apostolic succession...rather than the spiritual succession of the Father revealing all truth until the end, just as He had done with Peter in revealing that Jesus was the Christ.

It always boils down to that one issue, doesn't it? You are so used to spiritualizing the actual, because according to you, Jesus never shared His all authority with sinful human beings. Some of the disciples were stubborn; did they still doubt after the miracle of the Ascension?
Yes--thank you--I am indeed quite used to spiritualizing--just as the Father does!

But here you are proving that you do not even prefer the spirit--that very essence of the Father to whom Christ went again to. Obviously you are so anti-spiritual, that you hold a grudge against "spiritualizing" as if it were a bad thing, and not the desired end for God for all who love Him. And this anti-spiritualizing, anti-God (whom is spirit) issue and choice, has become an epidemic in the church since Jesus made it an option to follow Him by the spirit, or follow men of flesh.

How can authority work on earth if it is invisible? I look forward to a well thought out reply.
First of all, let me just say that if you knew the answer, you would not ask.

Nevertheless, the answer was given to Paul and to John, that after receiving the Holy Spirit, "if any man" heard that spiritual knock and opened the door to Jesus, then "to live is Christ."

Thus, while many followed the path of men and flesh as so many foolish virgins, few followed the path of revelation by our Father in heaven, foretold by Joel, arranged by Jesus, and implemented by the Spirit, the beginning of which was confirmed by Peter at Pentecost. And the rest is history, the flesh reaping corruption, and the Spirit reaping eternal life.
 
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Taken

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Open thine eyes!

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:27-28
The church is the body of Christ and each of us who believe is a member of it, the body of Christ, the church. The church is not an organization of doctrinal beliefs and practices.

I would clarify, specifically as Jesus did...
Believing is one thing...believe until your death, you WILL THEN BE Sav-ed.

Converted is a Committed Belief, THEY ARE made members of Christ’s Church, Forgiven, Cleansed, Sav-ed, Quicken-ed, Justified;
outfitted with the Armor of God for the protection against Evil spirits, Spirit of God with and in a man, Food of Truth “and” Wisdom, to deal with conniving Wicked men.
As well, “prepared” to Serve the Lord according to His Order and Way.

Agree, Some organizations, are masquerading as Churches, buildings supposedly established as a meeting place of Praise and Worship unto the Lord God, but rather are everything from places to meet;
For feeling good about oneself, conduct business deals, be entertained, fashion shows, gossip catchup, exalt statues, robotic repetitive prayers, sex deals, on and on.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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The Bible contains doctrine.

You only need to hear and obey it.

Not once did any of the Apostles or even Christ himself make that ridiculous charge of “not knowing the scriptures infallibly” against any of their adversaries.

Upon close examination of Scripture, one will find Scripture full of ...
IF’s. (Almost 2,000 times).

IF indicates an option.
Choose this “IF”....a Path following and with the Lord.
Choose this “IF”....a path to convince men to follow men.

Point being, it is ALL in Scripture.
Either can claim to be Adhering to Scripture.
It is by Observing...

Who is promoting...follow the Lord..His written Word for our benefit.
Who is promoting...eh, pff the Bible...
Who is promoting...words of men...

Not a mystery.
 

Taken

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What the Bible says is to reject those who cause divisions, which is the very essence of the onset of Protestantism: schism, sectarianism, and division. It is Protestantism that departed from the historic Church, which is indefectible and infallible (see also 1 Tim 3:15).
Dialogue with a Calvinist: Was Paul a "Lone Ranger"?

Eh, Roman Catholic, Greek Catholic, East, West, “rites”....
Worry about your own schisms, divisions, before waving a finger and wagging a tongue against others.
 
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Taken

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trying to explain it to a "Bible alone" Christian is like talking to a wall.

Not a big secret, The Word of God begins with an Oral introduction, and over time was Written, Copied, Distributed, Added to, Written, Copied, Distributed, Compiled from leaf to Book, Printed, Copied, Distributed, Affordable, Purchased, Given away, and for years has been the number one selling Book.

Scripture Alone, written hundreds of years Before Jesus was sent to Earth, was taught by Jesus Himself to go search, Verify what He taught.

Follow the time-line through history, to the compiling of Leaf to a BOOK, of Scriptures, called the Bible. The time-line of common men learning to read, having access to THE BOOK. And common men having A SOURCE Jesus Himself referenced AS SUITABLE for VERIFYING what men were taught ORALLY, whether or not it be TRUE.

Bible Alone IS NOT about Oral Teaching being rendered obsolete.
Bible Alone IS ABOUT ONE TRUSTWORTHY SOURCE to VERIFY what men are taught.

(At the exponential rate of corruption increase upon the face of the earth, observing the last 50 years, even newer Bibles have (sadly) become corrupt and adopted by many Churches and Individuals.)

Bible Alone is based in Scriptural Authority and Profitability.

2 Tim 3:
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.