Debate with Veteran

TheWarIs1 · Oct 18, 2011

Vet
consider this.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

It sounds like those that were cut out of the wild branch by nature branch became grafted into the same branch because they are blind to who they really are

but since they were truly of the natural branch how much and blind about it more shall that be saved and All Israel shall be saved fulfilled.
.

This can be taken two ways if you get my drift.

veteran · Oct 19, 2011

TheWarIs1 said:
Vet
consider this.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

It sounds like those that were cut out of the wild branch by nature branch became grafted into the same branch because they are blind to who they really are

but since they were truly of the natural branch how much and blind about it more shall that be saved and All Israel shall be saved fulfilled.
.

This can be taken two ways if you get my drift.

Once someone has understood Bible history about the ten lost tribes, and their historical part in The Gospel after Christ's crucifixion, it might appear that Paul was speaking more towards the ten lost tribe Israelites who thought they were Gentiles, instead of actual Gentiles not of Israel. But no, Christ chose Paul to preach The Gospel to whom?

Acts 9:15
15 But the Lord said unto him, "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
(KJV)

1. Gentiles - actual Gentiles of the nations, not lost Israelites
2. kings - had to mostly involve western kings, because Judah in Jerusalem no longer had an Israelite king.
3. children of Israel - all twelve tribes scattered among the Gentiles, especially in Asia Minor and Europe where The Gospel went to right after Christ's crucifixion.

Based on the history of the nations of Asia Minor and Europe for that time, the majority of those probably were ten lost tribe Israelites appearing as Gentiles. And then a number of Judah that still kept their heritage as Israel. And then the rest as actual Gentiles of the nations.

Vengle · Oct 19, 2011

veteran said:
Truly, The Bible does not really indicate that Israel as a people fell out of God's favour regarding The Gospel of Jesus Christ. That kind of idea comes from a topical study of The Bible popular among men's traditions. Real Bible study involves the histories of the Old Testament Books to know just 'who' our Lord Jesus and His Apostles were really addressing regarding the unbelieving Jews.

Short Summary of OT History That Reveals This:
1. The MAJORITY of Israelites at the time of Christ's first coming WERE NOT EVEN IN THE HOLY LAND. Then ten tribes of Israel had already been scattered through the countries, likewise with the majority of Judah. Per Ezra 2, only a small remnant of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and very few of Levi returned to Jerusalem to build the 2nd temple and city, and many, many foreigners returned with them, which a lot of those foreigners had become priests among them (Nethinims).

2. Per Bible history, and secular history, the lost ten tribes captive to Assyria and the land of Medes migrated out of it in stages, westward into Asia Minor and Europe, and became the western nations. The missing link to Cimmerians as ten tribe Israelites was discovered in the 1930's by Leroy Waterman at the University of Michigan in his translation from the Assyrian Tablets. In Scotland's Declaration of Arbroath in 1320, they described how they were descendents of Israel.

3. This means that "nation" of Matt.21 in Christ's parable of the husbandmen which He said He would given His vineyard to, involves those ten lost tribe Israelites scattered to the West. And the believing Gentiles would be part of that, The Gospel going to them also. Many of those ten lost tribe Israelites today still... think they are Gentiles when they are not. They lost their heritage as part of Israel (house of Israel), and became as Gentiles, living among Gentiles. Their scattering was per God's promise of Deut.4 & 28 for not following Him. Another shocker, per Isaiah 5, the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) ARE that "vineyard". So it doesn't take a whole lot of thinking to understand our Lord Jesus was specifically talking about Jews that were put in charge of God's vineyard, and that's who the majority of God's people of Israel were taken away from.

You're kind of misrepresenting what Paul taught in those Rom.11:1-5, for Paul specifically said that God has not cast away His people which He foreknew. Then Paul compared an existing remnant of believing Israel in his day to what God told Elijah about having preserved 7,000 to Himself that had not bowed the knee to Baal. Paul even called that believing remnant of Israel, the remnant according the election of grace. Per history, that remnant involved the founders of the western Christian nations, so their number is as many as the sands of the sea, and stars of the sky, which shows how God fulfilled His promise to Abraham about the seed of Israel. For the remaining branch of Israelites, they were 'blinded' by God Himself, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. We know those today as being mostly the Jews, which represent the "house of Judah" per God's Word, of only the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.

Study all your Bible, and you'll begin to know all this.

That's Replacement Theology, plain and simple. It's men's attempt to replace the seed of Israel with believing Gentiles, when God never cut off all the branches of the seed of Israel in the first place. The remnant of the seed of Israel according to God's election of grace became the start of Christ's Church. And then The Gospel was preached in Asia Minor and Europe to both ten tribe Israelites, scattered Judah, and Gentiles, all at the same time, and they became part of Christ's Church that way. James specifically addressed all twelve tribes scattered abroad in his Epistle, showing he knew what about the majority of the seed of Israel in his day? that the majority of them were still scattered abroad, out of the holy land. The Jewish historian Josephus confirmed this also in his day (100 A.D.).

I'll bet you don't really know just why Paul said he was both of the tribe of Benjamin and a Jew? You'd have to know your Old Testament history first to understand that, starting around 1 Kings 11 forward. I did a ten lost tribes coverage of the 1 & 2 Kings chapters relating to that; it's in the ten tribes section on this forum.

You may have some modifications to do brother before you continue that. But this last part you have correct. When God removes blindness upon the unbelieving portions of Israel, then I have little doubt that most of them will believe on our Lord Jesus Christ. But the "crept in unawares" that say they are Jews, but are not, and are the "synagogue of Satan", those were never of Israelite origin to begin with, and a lot of those call themselves Jews. I suspect most of those will still... continue to refuse Christ Jesus in that time.

I understand what you are saying. Yet, while I see what you are saying and have read and pondered all the same scriptures that it seems you at times imply I am ignoring or unfamiliar with, I disagree with your assessment of them.

You insist upon valuing something that was produced of the flesh by latching onto that fleshly nation as the focus of God's plans.

God's focus is not that flesh and he is not at all using that flesh. He is using the spirits of men. And there is no fleshly nationality to the spirit of a man. (Galatians 3:26-29) (Hebrews 12:22-24)

God will give Israel a body as he pleases. God's Israel is in no way that fleshly nation.

You think too highly of the flesh.

God is making all things new. Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

veteran · Oct 19, 2011

Vengle said:
I understand what you are saying. Yet, while I see what you are saying and have read and pondered all the same scriptures that it seems you at times imply I am ignoring or unfamiliar with, I disagree with your assessment of them.

You insist upon valuing something that was produced of the flesh by latching onto that fleshly nation as the focus of God's plans.

God's focus is not that flesh and he is not at all using that flesh. He is using the spirits of men. And there is no fleshly nationality to the spirit of a man. (Galatians 3:26-29) (Hebrews 12:22-24)

God will give Israel a body as he pleases. God's Israel is in no way that fleshly nation.

You think too highly of the flesh.

God is making all things new. Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

No, I'm not thinking too highly of the flesh, because I well understand why God said He loved Jacob (Israel), but hated Esau, even before either child was yet born, neither having chance to do good or evil.

It's about God's election, which is a specific matter Apostle Paul pointed out in the Romans 11 Scripture. In other words, what Paul said in Rom.9 that the children of the Promise are counted for the seed, his explanation concerning the election of Israel did not just stop there at Rom.9:8, like many try to do.

Rom 9:8-24
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God That sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
(KJV)

Thusly, God's election and calling was BEFORE the foundations of this present world, and not of the flesh.

So no kind of fleshy comparisons to this to try and get around it is going to work.

Vengle · Oct 19, 2011

veteran said:
No, I'm not thinking too highly of the flesh, because I well understand why God said He loved Jacob (Israel), but hated Esau, even before either child was yet born, neither having chance to do good or evil.

It's about God's election, which is a specific matter Apostle Paul pointed out in the Romans 11 Scripture. In other words, what Paul said in Rom.9 that the children of the Promise are counted for the seed, his explanation concerning the election of Israel did not just stop there at Rom.9:8, like many try to do.

Rom 9:8-24
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God That sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
(KJV)

Thusly, God's election and calling was BEFORE the foundations of this present world, and not of the flesh.

So no kind of fleshy comparisons to this to try and get around it is going to work.

OK, then it is that you earnestly believe that the scriptures are saying that because that is what you believe you read.

And of course Paul's speaking about having "no confidence in the flesh" is a mute issue because he said that not all who were of Israel were really Israel, thus eliminating that element which does boast in its flesh.

You do make me think.

My old body and its brain does not always keep up with my desire to continually learn more, but I am trying. I pick myself up and read my Bible or communicate on sites such as this sometimes it seems only as a way to rebel against my brains betrayal of me. But I am a stubborn old coot and just cannot abide letting my feebleness lick me. :lol:

i am not quite sure what you mean when you said, "the election of Israel did not just stop there at Rom.9:8, like many try to do."

I do know that in every generation that election of that natural remnant is out there and being brought in right beside people out of all nations.

But I believe that Jesus the man took the throne of David formally at his baptism and anointing and when he ascended on high he led captive captivity to that sentence of death not just for that natural remnant but for all men. And in him he did away with the division caused of the flesh.

I cannot see him reinstalling that division. I do not see anything in the scriptures but his destroying all enmity. That is what I have against JW;s teaching that not everyone of faith is a spiritual Israelite, for they say only the 144,000 are but not the great crowd. That to me is like saying he let the division (the enmity) of the flesh remain.

Recognizing that you do know the scriptures I felt free to just speak my heart here rather than have to go digging out scripture citations. I hope that does not offend you. If so, I do not mean to do so.

I just got up from here and went to take a break and what JW's are saying hit me like a smack upside the head. How do we balance the fact that the Bible speaks of both the Israel of God and there being no nationalities in Christ?

Only the 144,000 are the king/priest ruling with Christ over that millennium. But the expression Israelite is not a nationality at all. That is why it does not say there is no Israelite in Christ but only says Jew and Greek and so forth. The name Israel only signifies that strong faith like Jacob's, like Abraham's, but it does not at all signify the flesh. So the way the tag Israelite is used in Christ is not at all a division causing enmity. It is in fact a reference to the faith of those that endures them to God and saves yet others.

And I know some think we all reign victoriously as joint king/priests with Christ but look around you; how many Christians are really ready to take on that kind of responsibility under that millennial reign?

If we be honest, the vast majority are not. So then wouldn't we prefer to see them saved through the end of this world by the bath in the blood of Christ and be able to continue their growth in that millennium as the great crowd?

I am shocked at myself for having gone so many years seeing so close to that but not completing the connection.

Vengle · Oct 19, 2011

Veteran,

Do we not see here that God gave the flesh its chance and that fleshly nation was only used to demonstrate that point?

Deuteronomy 28:1 "And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:"

And as I learned only while making that last post: "How do we balance the fact that the Bible speaks of both the Israel of God and there being no nationalities in Christ?"

The Israel of God is not about that flesh nation at all. It is a faith nation. A spiritual nation that does not incur division and create enmity between men by national barriers among mankind.

Romans 12:5 "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."

That sets the pattern for all as they join themselves to that body, whether to have dominion or as subjects under that dominion.

2 Corinthians 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

Ephesians 1:10 "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:"

Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

So even those that move on into the millennium as subjects under that dominion eventually are transformed to become new creatures, one in Christ.

veteran · Oct 20, 2011

Vengle said:
OK, then it is that you earnestly believe that the scriptures are saying that because that is what you believe you read.

What kind of statement is that? There's a huge amount of God's Word that one cannot even read if they don't recognize God has a chosen election.

And of course Paul's speaking about having "no confidence in the flesh" is a mute issue because he said that not all who were of Israel were really Israel, thus eliminating that element which does boast in its flesh.

That's the exact attitude I was talking about in my previous post, those who read to the Rom.9:8 verse... and then stop to form their 'own' conclusions.

In the verses past that Rom.9:8 verse, Paul goes further into detail as to how he meant all that, and then by the time we get to the Rom.11 chapter, he's covering the idea of election full blown, even reminding believing Gentiles to not be high-minded because of God having blinded many of His chosen of Israel for The Gospel's sake. Malachi 1 about God choosing Israel is one of the places where Paul is pulling from in the Rom.9 chapter.

You do make me think.

My old body and its brain does not always keep up with my desire to continually learn more, but I am trying. I pick myself up and read my Bible or communicate on sites such as this sometimes it seems only as a way to rebel against my brains betrayal of me. But I am a stubborn old coot and just cannot abide letting my feebleness lick me. :lol:

i am not quite sure what you mean when you said, "the election of Israel did not just stop there at Rom.9:8, like many try to do."

Well, think more about your second statement above Does it really show a continued understanding of the rest after Rom.9:8 concerning Israel?

I do know that in every generation that election of that natural remnant is out there and being brought in right beside people out of all nations.

But I believe that Jesus the man took the throne of David formally at his baptism and anointing and when he ascended on high he led captive captivity to that sentence of death not just for that natural remnant but for all men. And in him he did away with the division caused of the flesh.

I would suspect then, that you believe the falsehood that only Jews represent the seed of Israel today. Many brethren believe that, but it's not true per Bible history, nor per secular history. Even the Jews recognize that the ten tribes were separated from them long ago, and scattered through the nations to become lost, meaning, nor calling themselves Jews either.

The Genesis 49:10 prophecy tells us that the sceptre shall remain with Judah until Shiloh (Christ) comes, and the gathering of the people will be to Him. That puts the time of Christ's sitting upon David's throne being the same time of the gathering to Jesus Christ at His return. You might want to read more of what God said to David about that throne (1 Chron.17). It's an earthly throne, not a Heavenly one. Might also want to do a New Testament Book study on the difference of our Lord Jesus sitting on the right hand of God's throne now, in contrast to the throne He will sit upon when His future Kingdom on earth starts per Matt.19:28 and Matt.25:31-34.

This has nothing to do with a fleshy Salvation, so I don't know why your mind keeps going off in that direction. God's election of the OT patriarchs, prophets, and NT Apostles are the foundation of Christ's Church, even as Paul himself said in Ephesians. They aren't joined with us; we're joined with them, according to Faith on Jesus Christ. Most of those are God's election of the seed of Israel which He chose from the foundation of the world, i.e., meaning BEFORE they were born flesh.

I cannot see him reinstalling that division. I do not see anything in the scriptures but his destroying all enmity. That is what I have against JW;s teaching that not everyone of faith is a spiritual Israelite, for they say only the 144,000 are but not the great crowd. That to me is like saying he let the division (the enmity) of the flesh remain.

The only division I see is the one you may be creating. Nor does this have anything to do with JW or any other group. It's almost like you're wanting to drive a wedge in somewhere on this matter, like you're against the Biblical idea of election. You nor I, nor anyone else, can change those whom God has already elected to serve Him in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Just so happens, that involves the seed of Israel, but not those of Israel who refuse Christ, but those who receive Christ Jesus. It's involves an election among the Gentiles also, and the idea is that they cannot... be turned away. This is why it is written that Christ's Apostles are promised to sit upon 12 thrones judging over the twelve tribes of Israel in Christ's future Kingdom (Matt.19:28). Those in today's Churches who deny this are going to have a shock coming when they see those 12 thrones of Christ's Apostles.

Recognizing that you do know the scriptures I felt free to just speak my heart here rather than have to go digging out scripture citations. I hope that does not offend you. If so, I do not mean to do so.

I'm not offended by that, IF you'll eventually go into Scripture to understand this, both of the Old Testament and New Testament Books, for it's written in both. Lot of this I'm pulling from memory, so I may occasionally quote the wrong Scripture. But most often, I turn to the Scripture when quoting. My Bible is open now.

I just got up from here and went to take a break and what JW's are saying hit me like a smack upside the head. How do we balance the fact that the Bible speaks of both the Israel of God and there being no nationalities in Christ?

I really don't get into the various divisions of those who believe on Jesus Christ. It's best not to, but to stick to God's Holy Writ; then one will know when a doctrine of men is being used to supplant The Word of God. Sadly, not many have studied enough of their Bible to recognize when that happens.

Concerning the idea of nations, God's Word DOES speak of the establishing of the nation of Israel, forever. Jeremiah 31 is one of the places where God Himself has declared that. The difference many brethren have yet to grasp per God's Word, is that the name 'Israel' IS the Salvation name under Christ Jesus, becaue the word means those who prevail with God's help, i.e., overcome.

There's so much I'm afraid you have missed from God's Word on that. It's why I keep bringing up the label Paul used in Eph.2 of "the commonwealth of Israel". The idea of a commonwealth is about the idea of a community of peoples. The British empire is known as a Commonwealth of Nations, because it includes many nations linked directly to it. In that same sense, Christ's future Kingdom is going to be established upon this earth. Isaiah 2 would make a good starting point about that, which is put for the start of Christ's future Kingdom on this earth.

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(KJV)

That Zech.14 Scripture is another prophecy about Christ's future Kingdom involving the continued existence of nations.

Only the 144,000 are the king/priest ruling with Christ over that millennium. But the expression Israelite is not a nationality at all. That is why it does not say there is no Israelite in Christ but only says Jew and Greek and so forth. The name Israel only signifies that strong faith like Jacob's, like Abraham's, but it does not at all signify the flesh. So the way the tag Israelite is used in Christ is not at all a division causing enmity. It is in fact a reference to the faith of those that endures them to God and saves yet others.

When God's Word spells out a specific tribe of Israel, we can be certain that's exactly who He means. There simply is no Biblical way to substantiate a change away from that, for it would only lead to confusion. The 144,000 of Rev.7 represent literal Israelites from the tribes named there. But... the "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 represent the Gentiles. BOTH groups together represent Christ's Church as one body. A flesh born Israelite that believes on The Saviour Jesus Christ is a 'spiritual' Israelite too, while still a flesh Israelite at the same time.

God's promises to the seed of Israel today especially involves the believing seed, the remnant according to the election of grace Paul mentioned, all the way up to Christ's coming. Those promises also now belong to us believing Gentiles graffed in, and we are joined with them as one body. That is how we too are Israel today, in God's eyes. It does not mean we can throw away those born of Israel as His chosen elect, because He is still... holding to certain promises He gave only to certain tribes of Israel too, like the "house of Judah" which is established as a literal nation in the holy land today. And that's even though... the majority of them are still blinded away from Christ Jesus. Gen.49 is a very important indicator of this also, because the tribe of Judah is to retain the royal sceptre AND as lawgiver all the way up to Christ's return and our gathering to Him.

And I know some think we all reign victoriously as joint king/priests with Christ but look around you; how many Christians are really ready to take on that kind of responsibility under that millennial reign?

If we be honest, the vast majority are not. So then wouldn't we prefer to see them saved through the end of this world by the bath in the blood of Christ and be able to continue their growth in that millennium as the great crowd?

I am shocked at myself for having gone so many years seeing so close to that but not completing the connection.

I'm not sure where you're going with that. But our Lord Jesus did promise that those who remain faithful to the end, will rule with Him over the 'nations' as priests and kings, on the earth. I do not think that will be all of us, because who would we rule over if we all were made such? I figure the endtime events of deception is going to be great enough to decide who among those of us today will have that right.

veteran · Oct 20, 2011

Vengle said:
Veteran,

Do we not see here that God gave the flesh its chance and that fleshly nation was only used to demonstrate that point?

Deuteronomy 28:1 "And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:"

And as I learned only while making that last post: "How do we balance the fact that the Bible speaks of both the Israel of God and there being no nationalities in Christ?"

For what you're saying to be true, you'd have to wipe out all the prophetic Scripture about God establishing Israel as a nation forever, like the Jeremiah 31 Scripture for one example. There's also many other pointers, like Amos 9:9 where God said He is going to sift the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) from among all nations, as corn through a sieve, and not the least grain will fall upon the earth. That shows He knows exactly... where He had scattered the ten tribes of Israel among the Gentile nations. And that event is for after... their having rebelled against Him. The Amos 9 chapter is especially about the time of the end of this present world and thereafter. There are many more Scriptures like that written in the OT prophets. And Peter told us to be mindful of the words of the OT prophets too (2 Pet.3).

So, how do you think we all will appear in our resurrection body? Will we all appear looking like our Lord Jesus? Now that would be confusing wouldn't it? And will that mean as Semitic looking, as He was? there are Scriptures that hint that we will recognize our own family members, which is pointing to how we very much appear today, but as in our youth. So isn't that about the idea of nationalities? One of the doctrines of men I completely reject, is that all peoples evolved from one race, which truly is an idea aligned with evolution theory. Instead, I believe God created all the races of man how He wanted them to appear, and said it was very good.

It's actually the New World Order hosts and Communism that has a problem with the idea of nationalities, because their plan involves the doing away of the sovereignty of all nations and peoples to establish their "one world government". At the end of Isaiah 19, in God's future Kingdom on earth, He said Egypt, Israel, and Assyria will each make up one-third in His Kingdom, with a highway running from Egypt all the way through Israel up into Assyria. Now that's something to think about involving God's future Kingdom involving nations. God is Who formed the nations in the first place (Psalms 86:9).

The Israel of God is not about that flesh nation at all. It is a faith nation. A spiritual nation that does not incur division and create enmity between men by national barriers among mankind.

Romans 12:5 "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."

That sets the pattern for all as they join themselves to that body, whether to have dominion or as subjects under that dominion.

2 Corinthians 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

Ephesians 1:10 "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:"

Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

So even those that move on into the millennium as subjects under that dominion eventually are transformed to become new creatures, one in Christ.

So, believing Israelites today are no more flesh Israelites of the seed of Israel? Obviously, you've got a conflict going on from men's doctrines, and by not understanding fully that Paul's remarks about no difference between Jew or Gentile is about the specific saving Grace by our Lord Jesus Christ for both, and not about how His future Kingdom is going to be established per Scripture.

Vengle · Oct 20, 2011

No Veteran,

As I said before, I read the OT probably even more often than the NT. And I see the accounts you speak of in a different light than you do. It took me more than forty years of dissecting it and pondering it to finally see it as I do today. I just cannot find an easy way to help you see what I see. It makes me feel quite inept.

I am a very slow one finger (on each hand) typist and so I do not work well with long drawn out posts that require huge and diverse responses. That alone causes me to try to shortcut my explanations. Add to that my eyes are going bad as I get old, I can't hear well anymore, I am a wreck. :lol:

But I keep trying.

I have been a Christian for more than fifty years but I do not count the first ten any longer as when I look back on them I see that though I thought I had knowledge I was stupid. I had to go through a long process of humbling before I began to be able to really learn and even then it has been a process of grasping at that consistent humility which allows one to see. When we have pride we honestly believe that we see. And it is quite a shocker when we go through circumstances that further humble us and we suddenly see that we did not know what we thought we did.

I believe that is beneficial though. In my early years I had a hard time seeing it that way but today I see that it is good and it was necessary. And that is what makes us a clinger with God.

What word do you know of that translates as "clinger with God"?

That word is "Israel". It means clinging with God in the way of enduring anything to get that blessing from God as Jacob did. God scourges all those he receives as sons and if they are not an Israelite by faith they will not endure through it.

That is the point of that name being given to Jacob from the beginning of the Bible to its end.

Vengle · Oct 20, 2011

Just a comment falling back on my last post: As I ended that last post I said that God scourges all those he receives as sons and we will not cling to him through that discipline if we are not Israelite by faith.

Just look how God scourged that natural fleshly nation. He used that nation to paint the picture to us of what he expects from us.

We are the Israel of God who cling to God as the name that was given to Jacob means, Israel, "clinger with God".

You are waiting for something to arise that is already here. You just will not let yourself see it.

1 Peter 2:9 'But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

Exodus 19:5 "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

Matthew 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."

veteran said:
For what you're saying to be true, you'd have to wipe out all the prophetic Scripture about God establishing Israel as a nation forever, like the Jeremiah 31 Scripture for one example. There's also many other pointers, like Amos 9:9 where God said He is going to sift the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) from among all nations, as corn through a sieve, and not the least grain will fall upon the earth. That shows He knows exactly... where He had scattered the ten tribes of Israel among the Gentile nations. And that event is for after... their having rebelled against Him. The Amos 9 chapter is especially about the time of the end of this present world and thereafter. There are many more Scriptures like that written in the OT prophets. And Peter told us to be mindful of the words of the OT prophets too (2 Pet.3).

I am going to deliberately lay response to this on the back burner for a while because it would take more effort than I feel up to exerting right now. Just being honest.

veteran said:
So, how do you think we all will appear in our resurrection body? Will we all appear looking like our Lord Jesus? Now that would be confusing wouldn't it? And will that mean as Semitic looking, as He was? there are Scriptures that hint that we will recognize our own family members, which is pointing to how we very much appear today, but as in our youth. So isn't that about the idea of nationalities?

That is apples and oranges. Just because we are a particular nationality in so far as genes are concerned is not the same as having to blow a national trumpet where we end up giving allegiance to a division of the flesh that ends up only causing strife. Men in this world worship their nations. They will not do so in that world. Their differences will be as innocent as the difference in flowers.

veteran said:
One of the doctrines of men I completely reject, is that all peoples evolved from one race, which truly is an idea aligned with evolution theory. Instead, I believe God created all the races of man how He wanted them to appear, and said it was very good.

There is the major snag then. Do you not realize all of the implications to what you just said?

That contradicts this: 1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

That contradicts this: Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

And it contradicts so much scripture and theme of scripture it is astounding.

veteran said:
It's actually the New World Order hosts and Communism that has a problem with the idea of nationalities, because their plan involves the doing away of the sovereignty of all nations and peoples to establish their "one world government".

Is that not only an espousing of what you learned from this world? Is that not carnal wisdom? Do you really believe that a world united totally free of national allegiance under Christ rule would be anything comparable to communism?

veteran said:
At the end of Isaiah 19, in God's future Kingdom on earth, He said Egypt, Israel, and Assyria will each make up one-third in His Kingdom, with a highway running from Egypt all the way through Israel up into Assyria. Now that's something to think about involving God's future Kingdom involving nations. God is Who formed the nations in the first place (Psalms 86:9).

And you can't see that is only a recognition of their race and not a dragging of their carnal worship of nations into Christ's kingdom? Our differences could be celebrated in love if the divisive nationalism is removed and all men truly see themselves as equals because they recognize that they are God's offspring, God's children.

Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

veteran said:
So, believing Israelites today are no more flesh Israelites of the seed of Israel? Obviously, you've got a conflict going on from men's doctrines, and by not understanding fully that Paul's remarks about no difference between Jew or Gentile is about the specific saving Grace by our Lord Jesus Christ for both, and not about how His future Kingdom is going to be established per Scripture.

That is just being silly. You explain to me how you obey the commandment of Christ to disown yourself while you hang on to all the things that won't let you? That does not mean you weren't born of a particular nation in so far as it determines your race.

In fact now days you are probably mixed race. God only calls to those nations for a remnant of humans to come out of them and except his grace for salvation. So it is described as the Egyptians or the Assyrians coming in to his kingdom.

You over complicate things to the point that you lose sight of the simple things and do not even realize that all your hard work to try to understand more is only really confusing you deeper.

I feel for you but only you can make the choice to empty yourself so that you might see your way through it. The first step would be to stop letting evolution influence your thinking and return to what the Bible teaches about Adam being our common Father comparable to Christ becoming our one everlasting father by the life he now gives us though we were dead.

1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”

TheWarIs1 · Oct 20, 2011

Vengle said:
Just a comment falling back on my last post: As I ended that last post I said that God scourges all those he receives as sons and we will not cling to him through that discipline if we are not Israelite by faith.

Just look how God scourged that natural fleshly nation. He used that nation to paint the picture to us of what he expects from us.

We are the Israel of God who cling to God as the name that was given to Jacob means, Israel, "clinger with God".

You are waiting for something to arise that is already here. You just will not let yourself see it.

1 Peter 2:9 'But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

Exodus 19:5 "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

Matthew 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."

I am going to deliberately lay response to this on the back burner for a while because it would take more effort than I feel up to exerting right now. Just being honest.

That is apples and oranges. Just because we are a particular nationality in so far as genes are concerned is not the same as having to blow a national trumpet where we end up giving allegiance to a division of the flesh that ends up only causing strife. Men in this world worship their nations. They will not do so in that world. Their differences will be as innocent as the difference in flowers.

There is the major snag then. Do you not realize all of the implications to what you just said?

That contradicts this: 1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

That contradicts this: Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

And it contradicts so much scripture and theme of scripture it is astounding.

Is that not only an espousing of what you learned from this world? Is that not carnal wisdom? Do you really believe that a world united totally free of national allegiance under Christ rule would be anything comparable to communism?

And you can't see that is only a recognition of their race and not a dragging of their carnal worship of nations into Christ's kingdom? Our differences could be celebrated in love if the divisive nationalism is removed and all men truly see themselves as equals because they recognize that they are God's offspring, God's children.

Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

That is just being silly. You explain to me how you obey the commandment of Christ to disown yourself while you hang on to all the things that won't let you? That does not mean you weren't born of a particular nation in so far as it determines your race.

In fact now days you are probably mixed race. God only calls to those nations for a remnant of humans to come out of them and except his grace for salvation. So it is described as the Egyptians or the Assyrians coming in to his kingdom.

You over complicate things to the point that you lose sight of the simple things and do not even realize that all your hard work to try to understand more is only really confusing you deeper.

I feel for you but only you can make the choice to empty yourself so that you might see your way through it. The first step would be to stop letting evolution influence your thinking and return to what the Bible teaches about Adam being our common Father comparable to Christ becoming our one everlasting father by the life he now gives us though we were dead.

1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”

From a multiple race view. As in Adam all die, because of his sin all Adamites shall be made alive through Christ,

Reading a KJV may not be a correct view of things.
I'm not studying this and can't nail it down either way for sure.

A few questions that many never think about.

1) Cain was never mentioned as a Son of Adam., ever, even though wayward sons were always listed in the Fathers lineage. Asshur. Esau
2) Cain went into the lad of Nod or really Nomads,, Who were the Nomads that gave this land the name?
3) Cain feared some people of the world would kill him so Yah gave him a mark, but he did he fear if only his Adam, Eve and maybe some sisters were the only humans?
4) Cain married someone from Nod or the land of Nomads, who was there to marry?
5) Cain named his first city after his first son, How could he and his wife create a City when it take many people to make a city. Did they really make a city for only 2 people?
6) Christ identified the Scribes and Pharasees (some we known were Kenites of Cains seed according to scripture) as being related to the first murder which was Cain and called them Offspring of vipers. John the baptist also called them offspring of vipers that were headed for hell.

Vengle · Oct 20, 2011

TheWarIs1 said:
From a multiple race view. As in Adam all die, because of his sin all Adamites shall be made alive through Christ,

Reading a KJV may not be a correct view of things.
I'm not studying this and can't nail it down either way for sure.

A few questions that many never think about.

1) Cain was never mentioned as a Son of Adam., ever, even though wayward sons were always listed in the Fathers lineage. Asshur. Esau
2) Cain went into the lad of Nod or really Nomads,, Who were the Nomads that gave this land the name?
3) Cain feared some people of the world would kill him so Yah gave him a mark, but he did he fear if only his Adam, Eve and maybe some sisters were the only humans?
4) Cain married someone from Nod or the land of Nomads, who was there to marry?
5) Cain named his first city after his first son, How could he and his wife create a City when it take many people to make a city. Did they really make a city for only 2 people?
6) Christ identified the Scribes and Pharasees (some we known were Kenites of Cains seed according to scripture) as being related to the first murder which was Cain and called them Offspring of vipers. John the baptist also called them offspring of vipers that were headed for hell.

You said, "From a multiple race view. As in Adam all die, because of his sin all Adamites shall be made alive through Christ,

Reading a KJV may not be a correct view of things.
I'm not studying this and can't nail it down either way for sure."

______________________________________________

That is bogus reasoning. The multiple race view is pure heresy. It is inspired by Satan and was part of the poisonous missiles foretold to be hurled against God's people just as evolution. Any that believe are worse than Atheists.

The only listings of Adam's children was the line of those through through whom Christ would eventually come. The whole theme of the Bible is that one saving seed. Adam had many children not listed. It is said in some ancient texts that Adam had fifty something sons and near twice as many daughters.

You cannot judge a city with our modern view as a mere encampment was often called a city. The Hebrew word merely means an area that someone dwells and is able to be guarded. Cain had good reason to build himself such a small fortress to dwell in.

Both Cain and Abel were over a hundred years old at the time that Cain slew Abel. And nothing in that account prohibits a fondness moving the heart of one or even more of Cains sisters or even his unmentioned brothers from departing with him. Clicks like that are common among sibling, especially in large families. And Adam's immediate family was probably the largest that would ever be again.

Nod at Gen. 4:16 merely means a state of vagrancy. It comes from a root meaning wanderer.

That idea of Cain fearing strangers is a manufacture devil's lie also. Just as who ever invented them twisted the things i have already addressed and insincere men lacking true faith saw fit to believe and continue them, so is this part of their story.

Kenites were descendents of the Midiannite tribes. The name Kenite merely means "nester" or one who dwells in nests out in the wilderness. That is how they got their name. They were just anti-socialites.

The original Cain and his offspring had no way to get through the flood. But the Bible often speaks of one being a seed of Cain just like Jesus told the Pharisees that their Father was Satan the devil because of their similar evil hearts.

That is the same principle as this: Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation."

I truly find even discussing this Satanic garbage disgusting. Only those with false faith to begin with would believe it.

Now you know where I stand on it in no uncertain terms. You are free to seek out the gullible to prey on.

veteran · Oct 20, 2011

Vengle said:
No Veteran, As I said before, I read the OT probably even more often than the NT. And I see the accounts you speak of in a different light than you do. It took me more than forty years of dissecting it and pondering it to finally see it as I do today. I just cannot find an easy way to help you see what I see. It makes me feel quite inept.

No offense, but I know more brethren that have studied God's Word all their life that are still sucking on the milk instead of chewing the strong meat of The Word. It's because they keep themselves tied to the tethers of men's doctrines.

I am a very slow one finger (on each hand) typist and so I do not work well with long drawn out posts that require huge and diverse responses. That alone causes me to try to shortcut my explanations. Add to that my eyes are going bad as I get old, I can't hear well anymore, I am a wreck. :lol: But I keep trying.

You're doing pretty well here, I think.

I have been a Christian for more than fifty years but I do not count the first ten any longer as when I look back on them I see that though I thought I had knowledge I was stupid. I had to go through a long process of humbling before I began to be able to really learn and even then it has been a process of grasping at that consistent humility which allows one to see. When we have pride we honestly believe that we see. And it is quite a shocker when we go through circumstances that further humble us and we suddenly see that we did not know what we thought we did. I believe that is beneficial though. In my early years I had a hard time seeing it that way but today I see that it is good and it was necessary. And that is what makes us a clinger with God. What word do you know of that translates as "clinger with God"? That word is "Israel". It means clinging with God in the way of enduring anything to get that blessing from God as Jacob did. God scourges all those he receives as sons and if they are not an Israelite by faith they will not endure through it. That is the point of that name being given to Jacob from the beginning of the Bible to its end.

Well that's where you're misunderstanding me, because I've never spoken against the faith of flesh born Israel which God chose from the beginning of this world. Nor have I spoken against believing Gentiles on Christ Jesus. Not willing to recognize that God chose a seed to be bearers of His Gospel, and that involves the remnant according to grace of Israel which Paul spoke of, and of which Paul himself was descended from by lineage, is actually to deny what God Himself says about it. If you understood this, you'd also understand prophecy about what that remnant of Israel was to accomplish through Christ among the Gentiles. Instead, it appears you'd rather follow a pop tradition of men about Israel, which acts as a tether upon your understanding.

So once again, it's not how old one is, nor how long they've studied, but who they've been listening to.

Vengle · Oct 20, 2011

No problem,

After the stuff I have heard espoused on this thread I see you as totally not interested in knowing the truth.

If you guys who espouse that crap were not familiar with your Bibles then I would be willing to tussle a bit with you.

But as I see it you have no excuse for you do know the Bible and just do not have the kind of faith that would keep you from such Satanic lies.

So I wash my hands of all conversation with you.

I know there is no point as you are not searching for truth and you will not agree with anything but what you believe. Therefore it is a fruitless venture to think we could examine the scriptures and grow in our understanding together.

To continue to pursue conversation with cannot come to any good but instead to wrangling.

veteran · Oct 20, 2011

Vengle said:
You said, "From a multiple race view. As in Adam all die, because of his sin all Adamites shall be made alive through Christ,

Reading a KJV may not be a correct view of things.
I'm not studying this and can't nail it down either way for sure."

______________________________________________

That is bogus reasoning. The multiple race view is pure heresy. It is inspired by Satan and was part of the poisonous missiles foretold to be hurled against God's people just as evolution. Any that believe are worse than Atheists.

The only listings of Adam's children was the line of those through through whom Christ would eventually come. The whole theme of the Bible is that one saving seed. Adam had many children not listed. It is said in some ancient texts that Adam had fifty something sons and near twice as many daughters.

You cannot judge a city with our modern view as a mere encampment was often called a city. The Hebrew word merely means an area that someone dwells and is able to be guarded. Cain had good reason to build himself such a small fortress to dwell in.

Both Cain and Abel were over a hundred years old at the time that Cain slew Abel. And nothing in that account prohibits a fondness moving the heart of one or even more of Cains sisters or even his unmentioned brothers from departing with him. Clicks like that are common among sibling, especially in large families. And Adam's immediate family was probably the largest that would ever be again.

Nod at Gen. 4:16 merely means a state of vagrancy. It comes from a root meaning wanderer.

That idea of Cain fearing strangers is a manufacture devil's lie also. Just as who ever invented them twisted the things i have already addressed and insincere men lacking true faith saw fit to believe and continue them, so is this part of their story.

Kenites were descendents of the Midiannite tribes. The name Kenite merely means "nester" or one who dwells in nests out in the wilderness. That is how they got their name. They were just anti-socialites.

The original Cain and his offspring had no way to get through the flood. But the Bible often speaks of one being a seed of Cain just like Jesus told the Pharisees that their Father was Satan the devil because of their similar evil hearts.

That is the same principle as this: Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation."

I truly find even discussing this Satanic garbage disgusting. Only those with false faith to begin with would believe it.

Now you know where I stand on it in no uncertain terms. You are free to seek out the gullible to prey on.

Though I don't agree with everything TheWarIs1 says, a lot of what you're following is not Biblical. Cain was fearful for his life after God cast him out, and the mark God put on him served as his protection. The history of a Semite that suddenly appeared among the ancient Sumerians around 3800 B.C. (per the Assyriologist Sayce) points to Cain. Sargon suddenly appeared among them, built their first city there (Urech), and gave the ancient Sumerians knowledge of agriculture and science. Sargon also began the very first written account of pagan worship of the devil there in Sumer, the very area which would later become Babylonia and Babylon.

And first mention of the Kenites is in Gen.15 as dwellers among the nations of Canaan, long before Midian existed. Moses' father-in-law was a Midianite priest, but lived in the land of the Kenites. The KJV is a bit confusing on this about Moses' father-in-law, but he was not of the Kenites at all.

Like Dr. James Strong who defined 'Kenite' (Hebrew 'Qayin') as the first child (Cain) in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, I agree with him.

There's only two possible ways the offspring of Cain could survive the flood of Noah's day. Either the flood was local to a specific area of the earth, or... two of all flesh like God told Noah, were brought aboard the ark, which would also point to two of each race that God created in the beginning when He created the man Adam (Gen.1:26-27, that distinction made in the Hebrew).

Vengle said:
No problem,

After the stuff I have heard espoused on this thread I see you as totally not interested in knowing the truth.

If you guys who espouse that crap were not familiar with your Bibles then I would be willing to tussle a bit with you.

But as I see it you have no excuse for you do know the Bible and just do not have the kind of faith that would keep you from such Satanic lies.

So I wash my hands of all conversation with you.

Likewise I do with you then, kicking the dust off my feet.

whirlwind · Oct 20, 2011

Vengle said:
No problem,

After the stuff I have heard espoused on this thread I see you as totally not interested in knowing the truth.

If you guys who espouse that crap were not familiar with your Bibles then I would be willing to tussle a bit with you.

But as I see it you have no excuse for you do know the Bible and just do not have the kind of faith that would keep you from such Satanic lies.

So I wash my hands of all conversation with you.

Vengle...please reconsider. Just take one issue at a time. For instance, in an above post you wrote, "The original Cain and his offspring had no way to get through the flood." That isn't true. If I may.....

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty.

Genesis 6:11-13 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Genesis 6:17-21 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

Man is flesh...all flesh had corrupted itself...the end of all flesh was before Him and He would destroy all flesh. All flesh with the breath of life was destroyed EXCEPT the flesh brought aboard the ark. Male and female, two of every sort of flesh...all races and that would include Cain and/or his offspring. The Kenites are the tares are they are to be with us until they are gathered at the end of this age. If you just see animals marching up the plank you are not seeing all that boarded.

.

veteran · Oct 20, 2011

So then, let's talk a little bit about the idea of one's race, since so many are so scared of the 'political correctness' doctrines being pushed today.

Per the Hebrew of Genesis 1:26-27, God created all the root races of mankind, along with a specific man Adam, on His 6th day creation.

The root races like Black, Indian, Oriental, Caucasian, etc., did not evolve from one man and woman as popularly taught. Our Heavenly Father is not an evolutionist, in no shape or form. Instead, He has shown us in His Word that He hates the idea of anyone changing how He made His creation, even with the mixing of seeds of plants (Lev.19).

What does that mean for the various races of man? If He was happy with how He created us, and even said it was very good after having done so, then why shouldn't each race of people today also be happy with how He created us? No one, of ANY race, should slight how God made them. Nor should anyone slight those of another race with prejudice, because God created us how He wanted us to appear.

But the children of iniquity DO hate God's creation, especially how God created the races of mankind, and they want us all to mix ourselves up to go OUTSIDE... of God's creation.

Why instead, is the world trying to get the different races to inter-marry and mix up their race, if they were truly OK with how different races exist??? Why would someone of one race even want... to try to change to racial characteristics of another, especially if the doctrines of evolution the world teaches says that's how the races originated??? Why aren't they happy with that and leave it alone???

Is it because of how the Jews have claimed racial purity, because God commanded them to remain so? Fact is, even they have not been able to keep that purity among themselves, as God's Word reveals in many Scriptures about their allowing people of the nations to creep in, their taking wives of the Canaanites just as Esau and Ishmael have done. But because a lot of the Jews still claim that separateness from the nations, does that mean the Gentile nations have the right to use reverse-discrimination?

The true racists on this earth are those who are not happy with how God made His creation, and that's why they want it all mixed up beyond how God created it. They are destroyers of the devil. And one of the very ways they work is to keep the races bickering against each other, to keep people divided so it'll be easier to control us.

This is one of the things that our Lord Jesus changed with His New Covenant, for under Christ Jesus, regardless... of what race one is, we are all to be brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. But does that mean He wants for us all to mix up our race? God forbid, no.

So what benefit do those derive who are actually TRYING... to get people to mix their race? Do they think that's how to make Christ's Kingdom come into existence? just mix us all up to try and prove we are all brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus? It would appear so, but that actually is a working of the devil with trying to get people to mix their race, since that's how God created us in the beginning.

whirlwind · Oct 20, 2011

veteran said:
So then, let's talk a little bit about the idea of one's race, since so many are so scared of the 'political correctness' doctrines being pushed today.

But the children of iniquity DO hate God's creation, especially how God created the races of mankind, and they want us all to mix ourselves up to go OUTSIDE... of God's creation.

Why instead, is the world trying to get the different races to inter-marry and mix up their race, if they were truly OK with how different races exist??? Why would someone of one race even want... to try to change to racial characteristics of another, especially if the doctrines of evolution the world teaches says that's how the races originated??? Why aren't they happy with that and leave it alone???

You're quite right you know. It isn't an easy subject to broach but still...you're right. You seldom see a program or commercial on television where there is not a mixed couple. Of course, that is if in addition the couple isn't also female and female or male and male. That too is portrayed as wonderful.

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TheWarIs1 · Oct 20, 2011

So many people want to claim you speak doctrines of demons if you speak on things they haven't been taught.

The seven churches are believed by many to be comparable to different churches through the ages and different types of churches that exist in each age.
One thing is certain about the seven churches and that is that none of them were really pleasing to Yah though Philadelphia which was commended for its brotherly love and did stand out about the rest. Think about real brotherly love.

I grew up in a drug religion and was drug to church every time the doors were open. When old enough I ran from this God they believed in because I ran from the abuse of my family.
It saddens me to think about how poorly I was treated by my extremely religious family members. Dad was a deacon of a church that peddled the same exact love for all men as Vengle does.
I work for churches and truly there isn't much love being spread in these congregations You're either in their click or not.
Preachers making incredible amounts of money and they feel they deserve it over people making a quarter what they make(golden rule) and preaching on a false teaching about tithing your 10% which isn't even biblical and still teaching that Gods chosen are Jews who can't prove any ties with ancient Hebrews.

Oh yes the lamestream churches have all the answers. Talk about Gullibility!

The bible mentioned Yahweh's hated for Esau and Edomites for ever.
Why did Jesus call a woman a dog who was from Canaan? Why did he not tell her to repent and or be saved?
Why did he ignore her on several occasions as if he had no reason to speak to her?
Yet the church teaches about a Loving God who loves everyone..
Where do they get this?

They also say that the evil men were just serving the devil and not really literal children of the devil. Exactly what the devil wants us to believe.

this scripture can't be any more plainly stated that Satan does indeed have a literal children here on earth..
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Satan has seed(children) here on Earth and to deny that is to deny the word of the Lord.

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whirlwind · Oct 21, 2011

TheWarIs1 said:
One thing is certain about the seven churches and that is that none of them were really pleasing to Yah though Philadelphia which was commended for its brotherly love and did stand out about the rest. Think about real brotherly love.

I grew up in a drug religion and was drug to church every time the doors were open. When old enough I ran from this God they believed in because I ran from the abuse of my family.
It saddens me to think about how poorly I was treated by my extremely religious family members. Dad was a deacon of a church that peddled the same exact love for all men as Vengle does.

Satan has seed(children) here on Earth and to deny that is to deny the word of the Lord.

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The Warls1, I understand the seed of Satan to be a literal line from the garden while others see it to be those spiritually in his clutches. I don't know if one superceeds the other. But, if we are to have brotherly love then please have it for Vengle. I have seen nothing of his thoughts that would lead me to see him in a bad light. Rather, I find his posts to be enlightening, well written and given in good spirits. It is best, I believe, to overlook the frustration one exhibits, as he did in an above post, when a new teaching is given, one that goes against all one has known before. It is expected that there will be some difficulties. Because others don't agree doesn't mean they are not....our brothers in Christ.

2 Timothy 4;2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

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