Debate with Veteran

Prentis · Oct 21, 2011

[sup]16[/sup]Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Abraham the father of... Romans?

How then, considering scriptures as these, can this 'seed' be literal?

Prentis · Oct 21, 2011

Also...

[sup]28[/sup]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus
[sup]29[/sup]And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

whirlwind · Oct 21, 2011

Prentis said:
[sup]16[/sup]Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Abraham the father of... Romans?

How then, considering scriptures as these, can this 'seed' be literal?

Not through Abraham but through his offspring Isaac and Jacob was the Seed called. Abraham, the father of us all refers to his faith. However, the promise is not given to the tribes only but is to all through faith. Abraham is the father of all who have faith.

Romans 4:13- 16 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Also...

[sup]28[/sup]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus
[sup]29[/sup]And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Again, that speaks of faith. If we are Christ's then we are heirs. We are then the wild olive (Gentiles), grafted into the natural tree...(Israel). We are then one in Christ Jesus.

As for the literal seed of Satan.....even they are offered salvation. It is their choice:

Genesis 4:6-7 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

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Prentis · Oct 21, 2011

So then you would agree it is not according to the literal physical seed? :huh:

Just trying to understand!

TheWarIs1 · Oct 21, 2011

whirlwind said:
The Warls1, I understand the seed of Satan to be a literal line from the garden while others see it to be those spiritually in his clutches. I don't know if one superceeds the other. But, if we are to have brotherly love then please have it for Vengle. I have seen nothing of his thoughts that would lead me to see him in a bad light. Rather, I find his posts to be enlightening, well written and given in good spirits. It is best, I believe, to overlook the frustration one exhibits, as he did in an above post, when a new teaching is given, one that goes against all one has known before. It is expected that there will be some difficulties. Because others don't agree doesn't mean they are not....our brothers in Christ.

2 Timothy 4;2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

.

I understand and I my post wasn't all about Vengle. I was pointing out how many mainstream churches teach similar things and have no real love for others, imo.
They preach many falsehoods but you teach doctrines of demons if they disagree.

the

TheWarIs1 · Oct 21, 2011

Prentis said:
[sup]16[/sup]Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Abraham the father of... Romans?

How then, considering scriptures as these, can this 'seed' be literal?

see my thread of Spartans,
Spartans were of the tribes that were with Moses and they left out on their own and started Sparta and Corinth.
They made a colony later in Italy and Syracuse Sicily. Paul visited all those places and including Rome and Spain(gauls).
Gauls came from Galan(pronounced Gaulan, Greek =Gaulanitis) east of Galilee. Galilee was pronounced Gauliylah in Hebrew.
Called Golan and Golan heights today.

Trojans were of Hebrew blood who went and created the city of Rome, among others people living in Italy, the Etruscans & Greeks..
Phoencians arrived about 900 bc

Paul's journeys led him to places that were considered Gentile nations but full of his Hebrew kinsmen.

Prentis · Oct 21, 2011

So the real Gentiles, who are not physically descendants of Abraham, are not actually grafted in?

What do you make of a native American brother who is born again of the Spirit, for example? And a man of clearly Gentile descent, or asian for example, who is born again of the Spirit?

TheWarIs1 · Oct 21, 2011

Prentis said:
So the real Gentiles, who are not physically descendants of Abraham, are not actually grafted in?

What do you make of a native American brother who is born again of the Spirit, for example? And a man of clearly Gentile descent, or asian for example, who is born again of the Spirit?

I think they are grafted in, if they are filled with the spirit.
by their fruit ye shall know them.

whirlwind · Oct 21, 2011

Prentis said:
So then you would agree it is not according to the literal physical seed? :huh:

Just trying to understand!

Yes, I would agree. There are two groups of the 144,000. One group consists of the tribes while the other is made up of those redeemed from the earth. There we see the natural and the wild olive. Or....the two witnesses.

.

.

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TheWarIs1 said:
I understand and I my post wasn't all about Vengle. I was pointing out how many mainstream churches teach similar things and have no real love for others, imo.
They preach many falsehoods but you teach doctrines of demons if they disagree.

the

Thank you for the clarification. I would agree.

.

.

Prentis · Oct 21, 2011

TheWarIs1 said:
I think they are grafted in, if they are filled with the spirit.
by their fruit ye shall know them.

Right, so then it is NOT according to the seed, but rather the Spirit. :huh:

"You were baptized into one Spirit"

whirlwind said:
Yes, I would agree. There are two groups of the 144,000. One group consists of the tribes while the other is made up of those redeemed from the earth. There we see the natural and the wild olive. Or....the two witnesses..

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

My understanding is that there is one group of 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe, into which we are grafted in.

whirlwind · Oct 21, 2011

Prentis said:
Right, so then it is NOT according to the seed, but rather the Spirit. :huh:

"You were baptized into one Spirit"

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

My understanding is that there is one group of 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe, into which we are grafted in.

One group are the twelve tribes but the other group are redeemed from earth and they "sing a new song." The Song of Moses wasn't a "new song." Only one group of the 144,000 could "learn that song."

Revelation 14:3
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

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Prentis · Oct 21, 2011

whirlwind said:
One group are the twelve tribes but the other group are redeemed from earth and they "sing a new song." The Song of Moses wasn't a "new song." Only one group of the 144,000 could "learn that song."

Revelation 14:3
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

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I understand both these groups to be the same.

If indeed we are grafted into Israel, we are part of the ten tribes, AND we are redeemed from the earth. Also, the 24 elders represent the twelve of the Old Covenant and the twelve of the New, and they form one group.

whirlwind · Oct 21, 2011

Prentis said:
I understand both these groups to be the same.

If indeed we are grafted into Israel, we are part of the ten tribes, AND we are redeemed from the earth. Also, the 24 elders represent the twelve of the Old Covenant and the twelve of the New, and they form one group.

Most understand the two groups of 144,000 to be the same but....they aren't. They are One in Christ but they are two groups. One of Israel, the other of "the earth," Gentiles. Together they are the One Body.

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Vengle · Oct 21, 2011

whirlwind said:
Vengle...please reconsider. Just take one issue at a time. For instance, in an above post you wrote, "The original Cain and his offspring had no way to get through the flood." That isn't true. If I may.....

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty.

Genesis 6:11-13 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Genesis 6:17-21 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.
[/indent]
Man is flesh...all flesh had corrupted itself...the end of all flesh was before Him and He would destroy all flesh. All flesh with the breath of life was destroyed EXCEPT the flesh brought aboard the ark. Male and female, two of every sort of flesh...all races and that would include Cain and/or his offspring. The Kenites are the tares are they are to be with us until they are gathered at the end of this age. If you just see animals marching up the plank you are not seeing all that boarded.

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There is much that I agree with you about in this post whirlwind, except for the premise I know you are using which without realization alters fine detail.

I will try to remember to come back to that in a second but first I want to clarify that the devil's doctrine I see is the teaching you guys are doing that says God created the races independent of Adam. And I say that is a spawn of evolution because it was promulgated in a panicked attempt to refute evolution. Therefore evolution is backdoor responsible for the teaching.

That panic has caused a frantic search of the scriptures to clear up ideas espoused by evolution that you have believed. Not that you have not believed. You have been sucked into seeing God programmed genetic variation as though it is evolving, when the simple answer is that God merely made the right combination of genes in Eve as he formed her that her genes would spur this variation when combined with Adam's through child birth.

I am not so concerned that anyone has trouble understanding what God was doing with Israel. What I call the devil's doctrine is specifically that promulgation which says God created the races independent of Adam. And I say it is futility to discuss anything else with those that believe that idea as it holds them blind to see what really took place as regards most else. it causes a building up of bad ideas upon bad ideas which gets one stuck.

All of the races today are traceable back to Noah's sons. And the few that you do not see clearly defined are because men do wander and men do break away with anti-social behavior and leave such spurious groups around as they travel through time.

So I know before I say this next thing that you can only see it as the shed blood of Christ that it speaks of and the bringing all men together as only by Christ's blood. And while that is partly true it is only half the truth.

Acts 15: 26 "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;"

That use of the word "made" is the same instance as the word "made" in verse 24 there.

And that one blood was also Adam. How can I say that with certainty?

Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

I have deeply examined as a part of my past studies what you are espousing here in this thread.

I know it is difficult for you to be able to see that you have been duped. What you are espousing is one of the more subtle lies that Satan uses. It is no wonder it makes so much sense to all of you. But for you to carry this lie makes you responsible in part for those who do believe what you say and so also become confused.

So what can I do but shake my head and deal with the sadness that causes me on your behalf by letting go of wrangling about such lies with you? One must be wise enough to protect their own heart from breaking. Else that heart break can destroy them.

TheWarIs1 · Oct 21, 2011

Vengle said:
I have deeply examined as a part of my past studies what you are espousing here in this thread.

I know it is difficult for you to be able to see that you have been duped. What you are espousing is one of the more subtle lies that Satan uses. It is no wonder it makes so much sense to all of you. But for you to carry this lie makes you responsible in part for those who do believe what you say and so also become confused.

So what can I do but shake my head and deal with the sadness that causes me on your behalf by letting go of wrangling about such lies with you? One must be wise enough to protect their own heart from breaking. Else that heart break can destroy them.

You do a poor job of debating when you just go throwing stomping feet and slinging the doctrine of demons label on others.
We know what the mainstream believes. You really haven't looked at all the details carefully.

Yah is not happy with the seven churches according to scripture and the mainstream is part of those seven churches.

Prentis · Oct 21, 2011

whirlwind said:
Most understand the two groups of 144,000 to be the same but....they aren't. They are One in Christ but they are two groups. One of Israel, the other of "the earth," Gentiles. Together they are the One Body..

But doesn't it say we are grafted into Israel, and have the same inheritance?

But anyways, I really don't find this a big deal, we'll know in the end, all that matters is that we remain faithful servants.

Vengle · Oct 21, 2011

Prentis said:
But doesn't it say we are grafted into Israel, and have the same inheritance?

But anyways, I really don't find this a big deal, we'll know in the end, all that matters is that we remain faithful servants.

There are not two groups of 144,000 Prentis.

They have grabbed that idea merely to refute things that conflict with what they wish to believe.

Use your reasoning: Revelation 14:3 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

They have constructed a web of false ideas because the reality is that they are using their own wisdom to interpret instead of really hearing what is said.

And they are dividing the body of Christ by their belief. The great crowd are those that have not as yet fully completed their sanctification in Christ and "NO MAN CAN NUMBER THEM."

That is why it goes on to say of the great crowd that they are yet being lead to the water of life.

17 "For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

The 144,000 are those fountains of water having completed their sanctification and being holy in Christ.

Proverbs 13:14 "The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death."

That is why Revelation also pictures them as big trees of righteousness dripping healing water from their leaves to heal the nations in the millennium.

They are one tree of life, the united body of Christ.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation focuses on what takes place during that millennium, not after.

Prentis · Oct 21, 2011

Vengle said:
There are not two groups of 144,000 Prentis.

They have grabbed that idea merely to refute things that conflict with what they wish to believe.

Use your reasoning: Revelation 14:3 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

They have constructed a web of false ideas because the reality is that they are using their own wisdom to interpret instead of really hearing what is said.

And they are dividing the body of Christ by their belief. The great crowd are those that have not as yet fully completed their sanctification and "NO MAN CAN NUMBER THEM."

I believe as you do brothers, that there is one group.

But I am testing the waters. If a brother or sister simply believes that there are two groups, but in no way uses it to divide us and believes we must walk in brotherly communion and love, I have no issue... As long as the belief is not put above faith and brotherly love!

Vengle · Oct 21, 2011

Prentis said:
I believe as you do brothers, that there is one group.

But I am testing the waters. If a brother or sister simply believes that there are two groups, but in no way uses it to divide us and believes we must walk in brotherly communion and love, I have no issue... As long as the belief is not put above faith and brotherly love!

That I am in complete agreement with you about.

They will have time later to learn the rest 'if they are faithful now'.

Likewise, even if we know it correctly now, that knowledge will not save us apart from obedience.

______________________________________________________

Proverbs 6:30 "Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry"

That shows the difference in the way the carnal man reasons. They place their reasoning over God's which stifles their ability to truly be obedient. Thus they are not really listening. And it is through that the visible body of Christ has become contaminated in this world and its light dimmed.

That is why we need that millennium. It appears that in this world the body of Christ has taken the sins of the world to itself literally that it might shake and rattle that corn to get loose from this world those that are at least potentially teachable. But that illusionary falsely represented Christ that results is that man of sin, son of perdition standing up in God's temple (his church) awaiting its revealing and destruction.

But there again I see God as about saving so I see that it is that illusion that is destroyed while God yet appeals to try to save individuals of them that through their flesh promoted that illusion.

That is confused to be the beast but it is not. The beast is a political allegiance with the kings of the world who fight against God. All those that receive that mark are going to be destroyed at Armageddon.

Prentis · Oct 21, 2011

Vengle said:
That I am in complete agreement with you about.

They will have time later to learn the rest 'if they are faithful now'.

Likewise, even if we know it correctly now, that knowledge will not save us apart from obedience.

______________________________________________________

Proverbs 6:30 "Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry"

That shows the difference in the way the carnal man reasons. They place their reasoning over God's which stifles their ability to truly be obedient. Thus they are not really listening. And it is through that the visible body of Christ has become contaminated in this world and its light dimmed.

That is why we need that millennium. It appears that in this world the body of Christ has taken the sins of the world to itself literally that it might shake and rattle that corn to get loose from this world those that are at least potentially teachable. But that illusionary falsely represented Christ that results is that man of sin, son of perdition standing up in God's temple (his church) awaiting its revealing and destruction.

But there again I see God as about saving so I see that it is that illusion that is destroyed while God yet appeals to try to save individuals of them that through their flesh promoted that illusion.

That is confused to be the beast but it is not. The beast is a political allegiance with the kings of the world who fight against God. All those that receive that mark are going to be destroyed at Armageddon.

Agreed. There is also always space for error on our part.

To me, if a brother is willing to learn, humble, and of the same spirit, having brotherly love, I won't reject him by any means. I am very willing though, to go back and forth about understanding and wisdom I perceive to be important for us to be able to walk in Christ! :lol:

Debate with Veteran

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