Submission Of The Wife: How Serious A Matter Is It?

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Pearl

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Growing up in the 1950's/60's the normal thing was for the man to go out to work while the woman stayed home doing the cooking, cleaning, shopping and looking after the kids, a perfect arrangement..:)
Sadly, nowadays because of the "Feminist" creed many women won't do that and think they have to get a job themselves to 'fulfil themselves', so the home and kids take second place.
At school, some of the most unruly kids were the ones whose parents both worked, and they hated going home to a cold empty house after school.
Many women have to get jobs outside the home for financial reasons.
 
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Pearl

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I am so blessed that after 50 years my husband loves me and thinks we have the perfect marriage.

God showed me a picture of marriage which I have shared on other threads but will willingly share again if anybody is interested.
 

Lifelong_sinner

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Submit… most women see that word as bad. Show me a woman who doesnt submit to her husband, and i’ll show you a woman who doesnt submit to God. Submission as a word has been perverted in todays meaning, yet in luke 22, we see Jesus submitted to the Fathers will and this did not lessen Him in any way.
 

Pearl

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In a marriage each partner has a role to play as part of a team. Sometimes it is more beneficial for the family if the wife is the main breadwinner. That however should not demean the status of the husband if it has been agreed between them. It's all about individual requirements and every marriage is different.
 

Bob Estey

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Ok, this thread may sound archaic to some, but I'm not addressing the unsaved but the saved in this thread.

How serious an issue is it with God if a Christian wife doesn't submit to her husband? Does it bring judgment? Keep in mind that I am NOT talking about a wife needing to submit to her husband's every whim, or become a mere slave in the marriage without any mind of her own. I am simply talking about how when it comes to tough decisions, where headship is in question and someone has to have the final say, that the husband needs to be the one who makes the final determination, especially where making spiritual decisions are concerned.

I offer the following case in point as evidence for it. The impetus for this thread was something a friend recently sent me about a dream her husband had concerning her mother.

It went like this:

He was at my parents' house. He saw his brother in laws but didn't see my siblings. He saw women from a church we used to attend that my parents are still attending. They said, "It's sad to hear about the passing of your mother-in-law." And he agreed, it was sad. They said, "It's too bad she died of prostate cancer."

As she shared with me, prostrate cancer is a man's disease, possible also in women but very rare. I told her the dream likely meant her mother was in danger of coming under judgment from God (an illness of some kind) for "taking too much of a man's role in life," and that it was in some sense connected to the sin she might come under judgement for; that the imagery suggested "her personality is unyielding" in "insisting on having things her way rather than His," which in the eyes of God becomes a serious matter, especially when you are taking the spiritual welfare of others into your own hands unjustly.

She sent back that her mother did indeed take on the man's role in her marriage from early on, and not only began handling the finances but deciding on church matters, and that he simply let her.

My belief is that when we get badly out of line with His will and enter into direct disobedience to His word, judgment can come to correct things. Again, concerning the matter of submission in the home, I am not some wife-beating dictator who thinks women aren't as "intelligent" as men are, so that's not where my position is coming from here. She also mentioned how her mother handles the finances, and I said that sometimes the wife is just better with numbers and keeping records so there's no harm in that, but that it's when she assumes headship over the marriage that the problems will come. My wife handles most of our bills in our marriage and keeps all the files, but she is not the spiritual head of the household.

Thoughts are welcomed, but keep it courteous and respectful. I have great respect for women and as a rule tend to prefer their company over men. I don't think there is any definition in scripture about "superiority" outside the marriage relationship. I simply think that inside the marriage a man and woman are to reflect the relationship between Christ and His bride, and there the Lord is the One in charge.

God bless, and thank you for reading
Hidden In Him
I believe a husband and wife should be equally submissive.
 

Hidden In Him

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You have to be kidding me man!

Not kidding. Until the church and Christ are united at the wedding supper of the Lamb, Christian marriage should still reflect the relationship between He and His bride as commanded in the early church writings. You deny this?
A Bible only person can have 10 wives and 15 concubines and 12 slaves and he can sell his daughters off for sex slavery ....concubinage.... . Nothing in the Bible to stop any of that. If you do not believe me....prove me wrong. At the time, wives were property and of course should obey their lord and master. Christianity handled women more or less the same as the Jews until the 12th century. and Marriage was not required until the 16th century.

And this is why I stipulated rather clearly my position in the OP.

You think me oppressive in my teachings or in my marriage? If so, how?
 

Hidden In Him

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I believe a husband and wife should be equally submissive.

But do you believe Christ and the church should be equally submissive to one another, Bob?

I don't think Christ should submit to the church. We are doomed if that should ever happen.
 

Philip James

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I don't think we should allow the enemy a victory here. He tries to turn much of genuine Christianity into an evil thing, but that doesn't mean we need to be buckling under. If we allow the word "submission" to be eliminated from Christian discussion and teaching, what is to become of obedience?

Non serviam is ever the enemies rallying cry..


Pax et Bonum
 

Hidden In Him

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strikes me as mostly like our “commit to” tbh

Doesn't fit the meaning of the Greek word.

υποτάσσομαι generally means to submit, subordinate oneself to, kowtow, knuckle under to, surrender to, or subject oneself to. It is a rather graphic word concerning subordination to another. It has one idiom where, in speaking of literature, it means "to append or attach (one document) to another," but that's a specific use. The translation "commit oneself to," however, would be watering down the basic meaning of the word for the sake of softening the blow to the modern ear. It's not accurate in light of actual usage in ancient Greek.
 

Philip James

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Until the church and Christ are united at the wedding supper of the Lamb,

Dont mean to derail the thread, but I couldnt pass this by..

The wedding Feast of the Lamb is NOW, and all are welcome to come!

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water.

Pax et Bonum
 

Hidden In Him

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Dont mean to derail the thread, but I couldnt pass this by..

The wedding Feast of the Lamb is NOW, and all are welcome to come!

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water.

I'm speaking of an eschatological event rather than any theological construct built around it, but post what you wish, Lol. :)

Thanks again for the music. I may have to get into that some more. I used to listen to Gregorian and Choral symphonies, but it's been awhile.
 
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Grailhunter

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Not kidding. Until the church and Christ are united at the wedding supper of the Lamb, Christian marriage should still reflect the relationship between He and His bride as commanded in the early church writings. You deny this?

Well I have already addressed that. Most Protestants think what they practice today is what is in the Bible. See post 19 That is not true.

The Holy Spirit has taught us many things that are not in the Bible and are corrections to what was going on in the Bible.
The Holy Spirit has taught us that slavery is wrong.
The Holy Spirit has taught us that women are no longer second class citizens or members in society, marriages, and in the church.
The Holy Spirit has taught us that polygamy and concubinage is wrong.
The Holy Spirit has taught us that wedding ceremonies are right. I find it humorous that Protestants do not know that they were the first to require wedding ceremonies. Why do they not know this?...They do not pay much attention to history not even their own history.
The Holy Spirit has taught us that a husband is not lord and master over his wife. Why do I say lord and master....because the way it is worded in the scriptures....words like as and is, it places a husband as a god over the wife.

For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
Ephesians 5:

This no longer applies to Christian marriages.

You think me oppressive in my teachings or in my marriage? If so, how?

Actually I would think better of you. But actually I see people thumping the Bible to make themselves look good but do not practice it. Because they know it is wrong. How do they know? The Holy Spirit instills in us a Christian conscience.

The female submission thing now a days is kind of a fetish thing.

What I want from a woman is her love and respect and she can expect the same from me.
Her happiness is my top priority....ain't nobody happy unless momma is happy. LOL
My desire for love is one of the reasons I have never been into casual sex.
 
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Philip James

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I'm speaking of an eschatological event rather than any theological construct built around it, but post what you wish, Lol. :)

Ah brother,
The eternal feast will go on forever and its Glory revealed at the Parousia,
But we participate in that eternal feast in union with Christ and our brothers and sisters who have gone before us, every time we celebrate the Eucharist.

The Groom giving Himself to His bride, and she receiving Him..

For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.


Pax et Bonum
 

L.A.M.B.

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A scenario to offer. My first husband was mentally sick and it revealed itself after 2 yrs of marriage so I became a mother to three.
In actuality my homes head had to be the Lord and I the emissary for there was NO man to lead.
Sometimes he was in bed weeks at a time ,couldn't function. He was bi-polar,schiz- paranoid. We lived very poorly with what I could do to feed, dress and sustain us.

Once he had 11 jobs in 12 months, it was very hard on all of us. Then when he would rally around, he became accusatory of me and I was cheating with this brother or that brother in church.
For 17 years we endured this until he held a butcher knife to my side all night threatening to kill me. Needless to say I left the marriage. I have since asked for forgiveness on breaking the word of God [ he is deceased now], and of God for breaking his word.

Today toooo many parents have to work and no I don't like the results on the children. It is impossible to survive if they dont but it is workable with the quality of parenting.
Instead of letting the net and violent games and their peers raise them it needs to be instilled in them a godly life and good values.

Btw instead of men feeling that women and wives should still be subjugated and quietly bow to men in the home and church would cause many a home to become a destroyer ( kids that shoot up places) and many faithful churches would close their doors and fail..
My thoughts!
 

Hidden In Him

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The Holy Spirit has taught us that slavery is wrong.

That's correct, but then the way the early church taught to conduct themselves within that institution was entirely different than what many associate with slavery today. But the institution of marriage has not passed away, nor was it ever regarded as a sinful custom, so I'm not sure your parallel works even if the other one could be made to.
The Holy Spirit has taught us that women are no longer second class citizens or members in society, marriages, and in the church.

Again, if one must focus on subordination in this context as being an evil thing, then the same must apply of the church subordinating herself to the Lord Jesus Christ, because this was the early church teaching. To render subornation as a concept intrinsically evil is to in effect render the entire Christian religion evil.
Actually I would think better of you. But actually I see people thumping the Bible to make themselves look good but do not practice it. Because they know it is wrong. How do they know? The Holy Spirit instills in us a Christian conscience.

I understand what you are saying, and I cringe when I hear some backwoods preacher on the radio somewhere harping on and on about submission. I feel sorry for such women, because I know the men sitting under the preacher are likely not much sharper than he is, which must not be easy to have to endure when the constant reminder is "submission, submission, submission." But this is an abuse of a godly institution, IMO. Marriage has not been done away with, and because it will continue until the end there must be a guideline. That guideline was laid down when Paul taught on it being a reflection of Christ and His bride, so I don't know that anything has changed in God's eyes on this particular issue, regardless of how archaic and outdated it might seem to the modern unsaved ear.
What I want from a woman is her love and respect and she can expect the same from me.

That comes close to my description as well. I can cook for myself, I can clean after myself (though I likely rarely would). I can do a lot of things by myself, so to me it is not a matter of dependency or abuse. But when it must come down to a decision that will effect us spiritually, I am no longer passive. In fact, we have a real problem on our hands if we disagree. But thankfully her and I agree on most things anyway, the important stuff anyway, which goes back to wisely choosing a good mate for life.
 
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Hidden In Him

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A scenario to offer. My first husband was mentally sick and it revealed itself after 2 yrs of marriage so I became a mother to three.
In actuality my homes head had to be the Lord and I the emissary for there was NO man to lead.
Sometimes he was in bed weeks at a time ,couldn't function. He was bi-polar,schiz- paranoid. We lived very poorly with what I could do to feed, dress and sustain us.

Once he had 11 jobs in 12 months, it was very hard on all of us. Then when he would rally around, he became accusatory of me and I was cheating with this brother or that brother in church.
For 17 years we endured this until he held a butcher knife to my side all night threatening to kill me. Needless to say I left the marriage. I have since asked for forgiveness on breaking the word of God [ he is deceased now], and of God for breaking his word.

Very tough circumstances, sister, and I think you handled it very admirably.

There are also many men who do not have your husband's situation; they're just spiritually lazy and don't want to take the lead, maybe feeling inadequate. But all such situations represent times when healing needs to take place, IMO, so that men can assume the role they were ordained to and essentially agreed to when they married, whether they realize it or not. But maybe that's part of the problem; it's not taught well.

As for those who fall into your situation, utter dependence upon the Lord would provide the only solution, IMO.