Virgin Mary or Deceit

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Christina

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There are many things that the Catholic Church is not disclosing regarding these 'visions' and 'conversations' with the deceased person Mary. For instance, below we observe apparitions of "Our Lady" that the Church is not disclosing, recounting two such evil 'visions' claiming to be Mary: Mirjana Dragicevic, one of the six children who reported seeing what now are internationally known 'visions' in Medjugorje Yugoslavia, describes the vision of April 14, 1982. In it, the Bible verse, "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light" (2nd Corinthians 11:14) was graphically depicted. He transformed himself before Mirjana. Her naive interpretation follows:"He was ugly, horribly ugly. You cannot imagine how ugly, he almost killed me with his gaze, I almost fainted. Then Satan went away and Our Lady came and said to me: "...renew the use of holy water, wear blessed objects and holy objects and put them in your homes." "** Tomislav Vlasic and Slavko Barbaric, Open Your Heart to Mary Queen of Peace (Milan, Italy: The Association of the Friends of Medjugorje, 1985, p. 14. This transformation of Satan (or another evil principality and power i.e., Zech. 5:7-9) into 'the Virgin' is not an isolated incident. The Irish press reports from Mitchelstown, County Cork, Ireland:"[Twenty thousand] 20,000 pilgrims are said to have visited the town since some children claimed they had seen black blood flowing from a statue of Our Lady and an apparition of the devil with horns appear behind the statue." ** "Why All Our Statues Moving," The Sunday Tribune, September 15, 1985, Vol. 5, No. 37, p. 9; see also June Levine, Sunday Independent, Middle Abbey Street, Dublin 1, Sept. 15, 1985, p. 10. This 'transformation' from a devil to 'the Virgin' was viewed at seven other Irish cities. (Dunkill, Ballinspittle, Mooncorn, Mountcollins, Cartloe, Monasterevin, and Stradbally). 2 Cor 11:13-1513 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (KJV)Definition from the Strong's Concordance:Transformed: Greek word #3345 metaschematizo (met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo); from #3326 and a derivative of #4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively, to apply (by accommodation) Helen Blavatsky, who was a spiritualist who channeled demons and who formed the occultist Theosophy Society, confirms the identity of 'the One' who changes form: "[H]e is the mysterious personage about whom legends are rife in the East, especially among Occultists. It is he who changes form, yet remains the same. He is the Nameless One...who has so many names...He is the Initiator." She is referring to satan. There is a very good reason for God warning us not to consult with the dead, for it is by that means that satan and evil spirits speak to people. In the Bible, a necromancer is someone who consults with the dead and receives messages. God strictly warns against it, in fact, God puts it into the same category as witches, wizards and the occult: Deut 18:11-12 (Our Lord God speaking)11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. (KJV)Definition from above:Necromancer: Hebrew words #1875 darash (daw-rash') & #4191 muwth (mooth); a primitive root; properly, to tread or frequent; usually to follow (for pursuit or search); by implication, to seek or ask; specifically to worship the dead. In other words, Mary isn't talking to anybody, for the dead do not speak, but it is satan and his demons who are communicating with them. Be careful of this type activity! The Bible tells us that there are good spirits and there are bad spirits. We know that the Holy Spirit is good, and that demonic spirits are bad. The Bible tells us to 'test' the spirits whether they be of God or satan. 1st John 4:11 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (KJV) A good spirit does not give messages that go against the word of God. But the supposed Mary messages lead us to idolatry (Mother Mary worship, Prayer Beads, praying to and worshipping the created thing rather than He whom is the Creator).
 
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jeffweeder

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why would you take your eyes off Jesus ?The holy Spirit was sent that we may remember All Jesus spoke and to tell us what is to come.I dont believe he sent his mother to show a miraculous vision for this reason.John saw it all and the prophets have already spoken.
 

verzanumi24

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There are many things that the Catholic Church is not disclosing regarding these 'visions' and 'conversations' with the deceased person Mary. For instance, below we observe apparitions of "Our Lady" that the Church is not disclosing, recounting two such evil 'visions' claiming to be Mary: Mirjana Dragicevic, one of the six children who reported seeing what now are internationally known 'visions' in Medjugorje Yugoslavia, describes the vision of April 14, 1982. In it, the Bible verse, "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light" (2nd Corinthians 11:14) was graphically depicted. He transformed himself before Mirjana. Her naive interpretation follows:"He was ugly, horribly ugly. You cannot imagine how ugly, he almost killed me with his gaze, I almost fainted. Then Satan went away and Our Lady came and said to me: "...renew the use of holy water, wear blessed objects and holy objects and put them in your homes." "** Tomislav Vlasic and Slavko Barbaric, Open Your Heart to Mary Queen of Peace (Milan, Italy: The Association of the Friends of Medjugorje, 1985, p. 14. This transformation of Satan (or another evil principality and power i.e., Zech. 5:7-9) into 'the Virgin' is not an isolated incident. The Irish press reports from Mitchelstown, County Cork, Ireland:"[Twenty thousand] 20,000 pilgrims are said to have visited the town since some children claimed they had seen black blood flowing from a statue of Our Lady and an apparition of the devil with horns appear behind the statue." ** "Why All Our Statues Moving," The Sunday Tribune, September 15, 1985, Vol. 5, No. 37, p. 9; see also June Levine, Sunday Independent, Middle Abbey Street, Dublin 1, Sept. 15, 1985, p. 10. This 'transformation' from a devil to 'the Virgin' was viewed at seven other Irish cities. (Dunkill, Ballinspittle, Mooncorn, Mountcollins, Cartloe, Monasterevin, and Stradbally). 2 Cor 11:13-1513 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (KJV)Definition from the Strong's Concordance:Transformed: Greek word #3345 metaschematizo (met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo); from #3326 and a derivative of #4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively, to apply (by accommodation) Helen Blavatsky, who was a spiritualist who channeled demons and who formed the occultist Theosophy Society, confirms the identity of 'the One' who changes form: "[H]e is the mysterious personage about whom legends are rife in the East, especially among Occultists. It is he who changes form, yet remains the same. He is the Nameless One...who has so many names...He is the Initiator." She is referring to satan. There is a very good reason for God warning us not to consult with the dead, for it is by that means that satan and evil spirits speak to people. In the Bible, a necromancer is someone who consults with the dead and receives messages. God strictly warns against it, in fact, God puts it into the same category as witches, wizards and the occult: Deut 18:11-12 (Our Lord God speaking)11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. (KJV)Definition from above:Necromancer: Hebrew words #1875 darash (daw-rash') & #4191 muwth (mooth); a primitive root; properly, to tread or frequent; usually to follow (for pursuit or search); by implication, to seek or ask; specifically to worship the dead. In other words, Mary isn't talking to anybody, for the dead do not speak, but it is satan and his demons who are communicating with them. Be careful of this type activity! The Bible tells us that there are good spirits and there are bad spirits. We know that the Holy Spirit is good, and that demonic spirits are bad. The Bible tells us to 'test' the spirits whether they be of God or satan. 1st John 4:11 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (KJV) A good spirit does not give messages that go against the word of God. But the supposed Mary messages lead us to idolatry (Mother Mary worship, Prayer Beads, praying to and worshipping the created thing rather than He whom is the Creator).
Mary is dead plain and simple, to believe otherwise is to reject the scriptures.
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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Mary is dead plain and simple, to believe otherwise is to reject the scriptures.
That is an indeed a completely a true statement.
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Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.:blessyou:
 

verzanumi24

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That is an indeed a completely a true statement.
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Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.:blessyou:
Where do those who believe that Mary is alive get there belief from?
 

Jordan

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Clearly from Satan.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
 

verzanumi24

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Clearly from Satan.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
Yes I know, but I am equally certain that they would give us a diiferent answer. I would love for someone who believe that Mary is alive to give us there explanation.
 

Mike1111Mike

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I allege that, and also ask:*******Why isn't anyone more angry about pseudo-Mary, being officialy named pseudo-( Co Redeemer ) with Christ. The Catholic Church is like many snakes in the grass. they deny any official such as this and that, but allow books -which name Mary as Queen of Heaven, and so on and so forth, and allow all of these false visions to occur, and go unchecked By Us. I once was working a job, in which one individual was proud to show Me a Ghostly Looking Radient Image of Mary where Her dress trailed off like mist of light, with longer trails in places, that she had taken with a poloroid, and I simply turned the picture upside down to show her, that the dress traing off, revealed faint images of ghostly looking demons, instead of a dress trailing off.Now the catholic Church Denies the Co Redemtrix tooth and nail, and Yet I believe the Vatican made it official in 2000. In addition, the Emaculate Conception, means Mary was born without original sin, and therefore was of a different flesh nature than Us, because we are all of the lineage of the sin nature of Man, no matter what ones interpretation of Genesis, or whatever other Scripture they disagree with. And Jesus as the man, because of Him being Divine, and blameless, was able to resist sin, and did not sin, even though capable of doing so. But if Mary were of a different "Flesh," nature than Us, via being emaculate from birth, then god would have explained the necessity of this in His word, and thus reasure Us, how Jesus did take on our Sin Nature and Our Sins, when He died upon the Cross. ( And then of course was Resuected, and Ascended to Heaven ), But I am not alone in the assesment of, having 1st learned of it in a book Myself, that by giving Mary a different nature than ours, makes by extention of the catholic actions, Jesus of a different flesh nature himself, which His physical body was not, though He did not sin, and did not have the sin passed down to Him via it being under male responsability to bear adam's sin, and thus The Holy Ghost conception must have therefore left Jesus without inhereted sin, but He was still of our nature, capable of it, but not according to catholic teaching which would block transmission of that nature being exactly that of normal mortal man, as Mary supposedly had a block from it herself,And therefore in a backhand kind of way denies "Jesus came in the flesh," and replaces it with "Jesus came in a substitute Flesh," which would then have required further Scriptural reasurances, basicaly "Don't worry, His nature, while different in that respect, was technicaly still able to take on ours because god said so..." Which would then be fine with Me, if I had a biblical because "God said so," but just about everything the Catholics do, is always against what God did say to do.Also the Jews, while I do not hate them, seem to Me to have been punished in so many of the ways they handled God's Word, while under punishment for their sins, and thus performed a screwy way of dividing up the 1st and 2nd commamdments, which the catholic church performed an even more difficult alteration of the intent of the text, to have no ban on images in their 10 commandments. They alter the 10 commandments, and what ever else they want, such as creating "Sacrements," which is legalistic sacrifices, and penances, and all maner of things -which Tamper with the Finished work on the Cross of Christ. And in addition to that, if we wilfully sin, and are burned in the fires of Chastisement for it, so that like Paul, or even Isaiah wrote about those being refined in the fire to burn their "dross," from them, like refining metal in a furnace,So if We do sin against God, and Burn, we go Back to God for Mercy and Grace, and not vain repetitions of groupings of Lord's Prayers, and Prayers to Mary, with Rosaries, etc..,Read the books "The Two Babylons," or "Mystery Babylon Religion" etc.., before You defend the Catholic church to Me,Or how it was documented during the reformation, how Catholic church used to teach that If a priest died before last rites could be given to him, all who also died, who's confessions he had heard, went to hell along with him!!!!!!!!!!!!! They went to hell for not being able to recieve last rites!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Or how When the Catholic Church ruled with an iron hand, it was against the law to own a bible, or even be in possession of one, in a common tounge, or to read the bible. Only Catholic Clergy were allowed to read, their Latin Bible only. Men were brutaly killed, including being burned at the stake, by the authority of the Catholic Church, to bring Us the strugle towards an English, and common language bibles.And don't even get Me started on their satanic Spanish and Italian etc.., Inquistions!!!!!!Torture, and death in the name of the Mother Church.And the catholics still believe they are the only true Church, being the only church with manufactured and false apostolic authority. because Peter was never a Pope. And the 2nd half of the book of acts is silent on His exact role, because even though He wrote 2 General epistles in rome, ending the one with "From Babylon," ( well I don't need tag more clear than that on the nature of the vatican), however, Paul --via God guiding their roles ( and Paul and Peter wrote of eachother, as their writings being scripture ), But Paul wrote of their evolving roles when he wrote of His mission to the Gentiles, and Peter's to the Jews!!!!!!!!! Peter was to convert, more Messianic believing Jews into the early Church -which was Jew and Gentile Both, just as their are Millions of Messianic Jews Today, ---Jews For Jesus!!!!!!So You now have My allegations, quickly about the catholic Church. I will have to clean up this messy post another time, but My complaints stand, as I see, and allege what I believe the Catholic Church to Be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!May Christ Richly Bless Those Who Truly Love Him, AmenAnd I Pray That Christ May Open the Eyes of Catholics,Who I believe would have to be saved inspite of, and not because,of the Catholic Church, if indeed any are, and that Christ might openthe Eyes of All who are lost, in Jesus' Name We Pray, Amen.
 

verzanumi24

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I allege that, and also ask:*******Why isn't anyone more angry about pseudo-Mary, being officialy named pseudo-( Co Redeemer ) with Christ. The Catholic Church is like many snakes in the grass. they deny any official such as this and that, but allow books -which name Mary as Queen of Heaven, and so on and so forth, and allow all of these false visions to occur, and go unchecked By Us. I once was working a job, in which one individual was proud to show Me a Ghostly Looking Radient Image of Mary where Her dress trailed off like mist of light, with longer trails in places, that she had taken with a poloroid, and I simply turned the picture upside down to show her, that the dress traing off, revealed faint images of ghostly looking demons, instead of a dress trailing off.Now the catholic Church Denies the Co Redemtrix tooth and nail, and Yet I believe the Vatican made it official in 2000. In addition, the Emaculate Conception, means Mary was born without original sin, and therefore was of a different flesh nature than Us, because we are all of the lineage of the sin nature of Man, no matter what ones interpretation of Genesis, or whatever other Scripture they disagree with. And Jesus as the man, because of Him being Divine, and blameless, was able to resist sin, and did not sin, even though capable of doing so. But if Mary were of a different "Flesh," nature than Us, via being emaculate from birth, then god would have explained the necessity of this in His word, and thus reasure Us, how Jesus did take on our Sin Nature and Our Sins, when He died upon the Cross. ( And then of course was Resuected, and Ascended to Heaven ), But I am not alone in the assesment of, having 1st learned of it in a book Myself, that by giving Mary a different nature than ours, makes by extention of the catholic actions, Jesus of a different flesh nature himself, which His physical body was not, though He did not sin, and did not have the sin passed down to Him via it being under male responsability to bear adam's sin, and thus The Holy Ghost conception must have therefore left Jesus without inhereted sin, but He was still of our nature, capable of it, but not according to catholic teaching which would block transmission of that nature being exactly that of normal mortal man, as Mary supposedly had a block from it herself,And therefore in a backhand kind of way denies "Jesus came in the flesh," and replaces it with "Jesus came in a substitute Flesh," which would then have required further Scriptural reasurances, basicaly "Don't worry, His nature, while different in that respect, was technicaly still able to take on ours because god said so..." Which would then be fine with Me, if I had a biblical because "God said so," but just about everything the Catholics do, is always against what God did say to do.Also the Jews, while I do not hate them, seem to Me to have been punished in so many of the ways they handled God's Word, while under punishment for their sins, and thus performed a screwy way of dividing up the 1st and 2nd commamdments, which the catholic church performed an even more difficult alteration of the intent of the text, to have no ban on images in their 10 commandments. They alter the 10 commandments, and what ever else they want, such as creating "Sacrements," which is legalistic sacrifices, and penances, and all maner of things -which Tamper with the Finished work on the Cross of Christ. And in addition to that, if we wilfully sin, and are burned in the fires of Chastisement for it, so that like Paul, or even Isaiah wrote about those being refined in the fire to burn their "dross," from them, like refining metal in a furnace,So if We do sin against God, and Burn, we go Back to God for Mercy and Grace, and not vain repetitions of groupings of Lord's Prayers, and Prayers to Mary, with Rosaries, etc..,Read the books "The Two Babylons," or "Mystery Babylon Religion" etc.., before You defend the Catholic church to Me,Or how it was documented during the reformation, how Catholic church used to teach that If a priest died before last rites could be given to him, all who also died, who's confessions he had heard, went to hell along with him!!!!!!!!!!!!! They went to hell for not being able to recieve last rites!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Or how When the Catholic Church ruled with an iron hand, it was against the law to own a bible, or even be in possession of one, in a common tounge, or to read the bible. Only Catholic Clergy were allowed to read, their Latin Bible only. Men were brutaly killed, including being burned at the stake, by the authority of the Catholic Church, to bring Us the strugle towards an English, and common language bibles.And don't even get Me started on their satanic Spanish and Italian etc.., Inquistions!!!!!!Torture, and death in the name of the Mother Church.And the catholics still believe they are the only true Church, being the only church with manufactured and false apostolic authority. because Peter was never a Pope. And the 2nd half of the book of acts is silent on His exact role, because even though He wrote 2 General epistles in rome, ending the one with "From Babylon," ( well I don't need tag more clear than that on the nature of the vatican), however, Paul --via God guiding their roles ( and Paul and Peter wrote of eachother, as their writings being scripture ), But Paul wrote of their evolving roles when he wrote of His mission to the Gentiles, and Peter's to the Jews!!!!!!!!! Peter was to convert, more Messianic believing Jews into the early Church -which was Jew and Gentile Both, just as their are Millions of Messianic Jews Today, ---Jews For Jesus!!!!!!So You now have My allegations, quickly about the catholic Church. I will have to clean up this messy post another time, but My complaints stand, as I see, and allege what I believe the Catholic Church to Be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!May Christ Richly Bless Those Who Truly Love Him, AmenAnd I Pray That Christ May Open the Eyes of Catholics,Who I believe would have to be saved inspite of, and not because,of the Catholic Church, if indeed any are, and that Christ might openthe Eyes of All who are lost, in Jesus' Name We Pray, Amen.
What you say is true and here is what the scripture have to say about some people in the last days.1 Timothy 4:1 (KJV) 1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
 

Pariah

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Hi kriss,Thanks for the expose!!I thank the Lord for this expose also!! AMEN!Hope He delivers some catholics back to a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ, the Lord.
 

Pariah

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Hi kriss,Hope it is okay for me to share this opening post in another forum. I think it is needed there as an eye-opener. I did state that it was from another poster from another forum, and left it anonymous so as to not make that forum think I was advertising another forum. Anyway, hope that is okay.Of course, no matter how good a post is or as an eye-opener, the Lord has to deliver them.
 

Letsgofishing

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Since you people obviously don't like catholics. you need a catholic in this coverstion, which happens to be me.
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Okay first off to protect the sinlessness of mary I'll use a bible quote. " hail Mary Full of grace the lord is with you.now what do you think grace means in this situation, thatb Mary moves beutifully??? not exactly. So to figure out the definition lets look at the definitions of grace. ( theres a lot of them) 1. Seemingly effortless beauty or charm of movement, form, or proportion.2. A characteristic or quality pleasing for its charm or refinement.3. A sense of fitness or propriety.4. A disposition to be generous or helpful; goodwill.Mercy; clemency.5. A favor rendered by one who need not do so; indulgence.6. A temporary immunity or exemption; a reprieve.7. Graces Greek & Roman Mythology. Three sister goddesses, known in Greek mythology as Aglaia, Euphrosyne, and Thalia, who dispense charm and beauty.8. Divine love and protection bestowed freely on people.9.The state of being protected or sanctified by the favor of God.10.An excellence or power granted by God.11. A short prayer of blessing or thanksgiving said before or after a meal.Grace Used with His, Her, or Your as a title and form of address for a duke, duchess, or archbishop.12.Music. An appoggiatura, trill, or other musical ornanment in the music of 16th and 17th century England.Lets go fishing resumes talking hereI put in bold the definitions which I think apply to Mary. one definition stands out above the others I think. The state of being protected or sanctified by the favor of God.now we all know what protected means...but sanctified???lets look that up1. to be set apart from wordly things.2. to PurifySo in english the angel is saying Holy mary who is set apart from wordly thingsor Holy Mary who is pure.sounds sort of like she's sinless. Be free to disagree, there are twelve definitons of grace up ther but this is the biblical catholic defintion. Also the catholic church is not worshipping Mary yet all were doing is asking her for help, which you do with other people every day. I do believe that the catholic church will start worshipping for the catholic church is the antichrist spoken of in the scriptures. We have not turned into the beast yet though, but it will happen in time.I would explain that but Ive already written a novel, so thats for a later time.
 

verzanumi24

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Since you people obviously don't like catholics. you need a catholic in this coverstion, which happens to be me.
smile.gif
Okay first off to protect the sinlessness of mary I'll use a bible quote. " hail Mary Full of grace the lord is with you.now what do you think grace means in this situation, thatb Mary moves beutifully??? not exactly. So to figure out the definition lets look at the definitions of grace. ( theres a lot of them) 1. Seemingly effortless beauty or charm of movement, form, or proportion.2. A characteristic or quality pleasing for its charm or refinement.3. A sense of fitness or propriety.4. A disposition to be generous or helpful; goodwill.Mercy; clemency.5. A favor rendered by one who need not do so; indulgence.6. A temporary immunity or exemption; a reprieve.7. Graces Greek & Roman Mythology. Three sister goddesses, known in Greek mythology as Aglaia, Euphrosyne, and Thalia, who dispense charm and beauty.8. Divine love and protection bestowed freely on people.9.The state of being protected or sanctified by the favor of God.10.An excellence or power granted by God.11. A short prayer of blessing or thanksgiving said before or after a meal.Grace Used with His, Her, or Your as a title and form of address for a duke, duchess, or archbishop.12.Music. An appoggiatura, trill, or other musical ornanment in the music of 16th and 17th century England.Lets go fishing resumes talking hereI put in bold the definitions which I think apply to Mary. one definition stands out above the others I think. The state of being protected or sanctified by the favor of God.now we all know what protected means...but sanctified???lets look that up1. to be set apart from wordly things.2. to PurifySo in english the angel is saying Holy mary who is set apart from wordly thingsor Holy Mary who is pure.sounds sort of like she's sinless. Be free to disagree, there are twelve definitons of grace up ther but this is the biblical catholic defintion. Also the catholic church is not worshipping Mary yet all were doing is asking her for help, which you do with other people every day. I do believe that the catholic church will start worshipping for the catholic church is the antichrist spoken of in the scriptures. We have not turned into the beast yet though, but it will happen in time.I would explain that but Ive already written a novel, so thats for a later time.
What's the scripture you are quoting about Hail Mary full of grace? You are wrong to believe that Mary was sinless, but in order to show that you are incorrect I need to know what part of the Bible you are quoting.
 

verzanumi24

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Mary was not Pure because after she conceived Jesus then Joseph Laid with her. Yeshua Had Brothers
Well I'm expecting Letsgofishing to give me the scripture that he quoted. I know that the quote is in the Bible but I want to prove him wrong that Mary was without sin. But you use the word pure; where in the Bible is the word pure use to describe Mary? I know that she was blessed among women, as it says in the scripture but that is not saying she was sinless.
 

Pariah

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Letsgofishing,
now we all know what protected means...but sanctified???lets look that up1. to be set apart from wordly things.2. to PurifySo in english the angel is saying Holy mary who is set apart from wordly thingsor Holy Mary who is pure.sounds sort of like she's sinless.
And thus how does that apply to us?1 Corinthians 1:Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:That means Mary was not sinless. She needed the Saviour just as much as we do. She said so.Luke 1: 46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Thus scriptures is correct when it is written:Romans 3: 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: So anyone that hopes in Christ is pure.1 John 3: 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.The question here is are you going to do what Mary have done, what Peter had done, what the other disciples and believers that went through the eraly church as written in the NT have done and that is what? Go to Jesus in prayer and in relating to God the Father. Mary has no more power to hear prayers than any other saint for they can't, and scriptures says God wants to have a personal relationship with us... no middleman for Jesus is the ONLY middleman... for to know God.. you have to know the Son... to relate to God the Father.. you have to relate to God the Son. Period. No run arounds. Otherwise, you are not heeding His Sayings and you are building on sand in that relationship with Him... simply by not honouring that relationship with Him as He is the Bridegroom as you are the Bride. You are committing spiritual adultery by climbing up another Way. Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.
 

Letsgofishing

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Hello everybody
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I'm sorry I was at my sisters basketball game. Lost by 4.Hey Verzamuni I don't get how you need the scripture verse to prove me wrong, but anyway here it is Luke 1 verse 28. Now if you read my thread on the welcome wagon you would know I do not consider the catholic chruch my church, I consider the whole christian church as my church, all 33,000 pieces of it. So therefore I do not neccesarily believe in this for I do not follow the catholic church dogma's. ( because in reality theres only 2 believe Jesus died for you, and believe that he is your God.) But lets look at the catholic understanding again. Now it is true that all who believe in christ become purified. I cannot judge you but I KNOW i am not pure right now. But we will be pure when we die. Consider that Mary was pure when she was on earth, as we know because of the Angels announcement. therefore again it suggests she could have been sinnless.also the catholic church believes that God was the sole reason Mary was sinnless. that is wh she needed a savior.Unorthodox christian Brothers in the original language the gospel was written meant many things including cousin, friend, or follower. Therefore Jesus may not have had brothers, in fact it is very probable that he didn't.Is this Idea imparitive to the christian faith as you suggest. NO. Saying that Believing Mary was sinnless is spiritual adultarly is the same as saying that believing the post rapture is spiritual adultary because you think its the pre rapture. In the end it depends on our Faith in Jesus and our loyalty to him.Do i believe in this. I have no Idea, i have been praying to god for the last 3 years to give me an answer of yes or no and he has not given me either. I hope thats all the arguments.wait one more, where do you get the idea that saints can't hear prayers, is there a scripture verse that suggests that. Just wondering not challengingwell actually i amYour brother in christRyan Fitz
 

verzanumi24

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Aug 17, 2007
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Since you people obviously don't like catholics. you need a catholic in this coverstion, which happens to be me.
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Okay first off to protect the sinlessness of mary I'll use a bible quote. " hail Mary Full of grace the lord is with you.now what do you think grace means in this situation, thatb Mary moves beutifully??? not exactly. So to figure out the definition lets look at the definitions of grace. ( theres a lot of them) 1. Seemingly effortless beauty or charm of movement, form, or proportion.2. A characteristic or quality pleasing for its charm or refinement.3. A sense of fitness or propriety.4. A disposition to be generous or helpful; goodwill.Mercy; clemency.5. A favor rendered by one who need not do so; indulgence.6. A temporary immunity or exemption; a reprieve.7. Graces Greek & Roman Mythology. Three sister goddesses, known in Greek mythology as Aglaia, Euphrosyne, and Thalia, who dispense charm and beauty.8. Divine love and protection bestowed freely on people.9.The state of being protected or sanctified by the favor of God.10.An excellence or power granted by God.11. A short prayer of blessing or thanksgiving said before or after a meal.Grace Used with His, Her, or Your as a title and form of address for a duke, duchess, or archbishop.12.Music. An appoggiatura, trill, or other musical ornanment in the music of 16th and 17th century England.Lets go fishing resumes talking hereI put in bold the definitions which I think apply to Mary. one definition stands out above the others I think. The state of being protected or sanctified by the favor of God.now we all know what protected means...but sanctified???lets look that up1. to be set apart from wordly things.2. to PurifySo in english the angel is saying Holy mary who is set apart from wordly thingsor Holy Mary who is pure.sounds sort of like she's sinless. Be free to disagree, there are twelve definitons of grace up ther but this is the biblical catholic defintion. Also the catholic church is not worshipping Mary yet all were doing is asking her for help, which you do with other people every day. I do believe that the catholic church will start worshipping for the catholic church is the antichrist spoken of in the scriptures. We have not turned into the beast yet though, but it will happen in time.I would explain that but Ive already written a novel, so thats for a later time.
Well I tried to find where in the Bible " hail Mary Full of grace the lord is with you”, but I could not;it would have been more helpful if you did mentioned what version of translation you were quoting….however, here is what the word Grace means in the Greek. The first scripture deals with Jesus and the second one is about Christians. As you will see grace has nothing to do with being sinless, but more to do with what God has done towards the individual or individuals.So if you believe that Mary was sinless because she was full of grace, then you would have to apply that also to Christians as well.Grace:Greek Strong's Number: 5485Greek Word: χάριςTransliteration: charisPhonetic Pronunciation: khar'-eceRoot: from Cross Reference: TDNT - 9:372,1298Part of Speech: n fVine's Words: Accept, Accepted, Acceptable, Benefit, Benefactor, Favor, Favored, Grace, Liberal, Liberality, Liberally, Thank, Thanks, Thankful, Thankfulness, Thanksgiving, Thankworthy from (chairo); graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude) :- acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy). —Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew DictionaryJohn 1:14 (KJV) 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Romans 1:5 (KJV) 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: