Are Muslims Allowed Here?

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Aunty Jane

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Jesus was homeless but still we hear prosperity preaching. It makes no sense to me, confronting the errors, without the JWs knowing my love for them.

When they knocked on my door I invited them inside in my one room apartment, I told them that I love Jesus and that I believe in the trinity. So when we sat down and talked, they (husband and wife) asked me about my beliefs.
I told them.

Then they tried to confront them(my beliefs), asking me where I’ll go when I die.
I told them that I’ll go to heaven, they told me that only 144.000 something is going to heaven and I told them that I didn’t know that, but if that’s the case then I must be one of those 144.000. To which the wife replied “do you really want to go to heaven?-what are you going to do there?”.
I asked her “don’t you want to go to heaven?” And she straight up replied “no” whereafter her husband interrupted her, correcting her saying “of course it’s better to be in heaven”.

We changed the subject and soon they were on their way, but we agreed to talk again soon.

Next time they came the husband from last time had a young English/Danish speaking missionary with him instead of his wife. I read the Bible for them, I prayed for them -I’m pretty sure we prayed together too, although I was of that belief that they don’t pray with people who believe in the trinity, but maybe I just prayed for them.
I know that God can turn people like he turned Paul, I just want people to search for God through prayer. A personal relationship with God beats any theology any rational thought any argument.
I know that they felt It when we prayed and I never talked to them again.

I don’t know if the seeds I planted grew or if they were wasted in the dry earth but I know that this had an impact on all three JWs that came to my home.
I have much love for them and I want them to enter heaven with me, regardless of their religious flag.

Let’s not forget that Jesus disarmed people with love and we should really use that strategy. The same goes with sinners of all kind.

Much love!
Do you know what I find interesting about these sorts of stories? That opinions about our entire brotherhood are made by interactions with only a few. Do you think if we interacted with members of Christendom's churches the same way, we would walk away scratching our heads? I know I have....the many denominations have their altercations here on these forums.....some even telling others that they are bound for hell
shocked
....
....where is the unity Paul spoke of? (1 Corinthians 1:10) It's easy to point fingers at someone....but three finger are pointing back to yourself....
 
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Aunty Jane

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If their belief is in the Bible they have nothing to fear. But since the Bible doesn't support the watchtower publications, yet they use the Bible as a prop, what is one supposed to do.
Happy to discuss that with you.....
max
 

McFearless

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Do you know what I find interesting about these sorts of stories? That opinions about our entire brotherhood are made by interactions with only a few. Do you think if we interacted with members of Christendom's churches the same way, we would walk away scratching our heads? I know I have....the many denominations have their altercations here on these forums.....some even telling others that they are bound for hell
shocked
....
....where is the unity Paul spoke of? (1 Corinthians 1:10) It's easy to point fingers at someone....but three finger are pointing back to yourself....

Dear Aunty Jane,
We are all misguided in someway, we will see the truth piece by piece. Some or all of us accept lies as truths until the truth is revealed to us. So please don’t misunderstand me, I see most/all Christians as misguided brothers or sisters, myself included. That’s why it’s possible for God to lead me, that’s why it’s possible to for me to show love - I need that love and mercy too. Please forgive me if I was unclear I didn’t mean to single JWs out. I believe that God answers prayers and I believe that we will only build up a personal relationship with him if we pray. That’s how I saw the light and was saved and I believe that I will be saved even if some of my beliefs are wrong. There must also be disagreements within the JW church sometimes? We can’t all be right all the time..
 
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Aunty Jane

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Dear Aunty Jane,
We are all misguided in someway, we will see the truth piece by piece. Some or all of us accept lies as truths until the truth is revealed to us. So please don’t misunderstand me, I see most/all Christians as misguided brothers or sisters, myself included. That’s why it’s possible for God to lead me, that’s why it’s possible to for me to show love - I need that love and mercy too. Please forgive me if I was unclear I didn’t mean to single JWs out. I believe that God answers prayers and I believe that we will only build up a personal relationship with him if we pray. That’s how I saw the light and was saved and I believe that I will be saved even if some of my beliefs are wrong. There must also be disagreements within the JW church sometimes? We can’t all be right all the time..
Well, coming out of the Anglican church, completely disgusted by the hypocrisy I witnessed in that church, I can only speak for myself and my own experiences. When I left the church I went searching for God in other denominations, only to find them teaching the same false doctrines under a different banner.....I sometimes wondered what made them call themselves by different labels? Their core beliefs were basically the same.

What was I seeing that made me want to leave? So many things.....the fact that there was one minister who taught whatever he liked in 'his' church...and that people who disagreed with him could go to the same denomination's church in the next suburb and be happy with what was taught by that minister, really made me realize how loose it all was.
Jesus taught one truth....and all his disciples accepted it without hesitation, knowing from whom it came....not just from Jesus, but everything Jesus taught was from his Father. (John 7:15-16)

I was bothered by the church's support for political issues, when I knew Jesus said his disciples were to be "no part of the world". (John 18:36) By their supporting one political side or the other they were dividing themselves along party lines even in their churches. And when it came time for the nations to go to war, the clergy were right there at the battlefield with them.....encouraging their charges to keep on killing those who may have been their 'brothers' of the same or a different denomination.....how could that have God's sanction? (Matthew 5:43-44) How can you "love your enemy" with a gun, a tank or a bomb?
sniper

Where was obedience to God and his son? They would rather be "friends with the world". (James 4:4)

In the days before the Internet, I did most of my research in books that addressed topics that I found interesting.....especially the origins of the beliefs that are held in most of the churches. Finding out that the things taught were in fact much older than Christianity, and were sold to the ignorant people by an unchristian Emperor, passing these pagan beliefs off under a different label. The more I looked, the more disgusted I became.

The "mother" church dictated false beliefs to those ignorant people for centuries, and later she turned out to be the parent of many daughters, who, even though they left home, took their mother's dirty laundry with them.

If you examine Christendom's core doctrines and shine the light of the Bible on them honestly.....you will find that none of them have Christian origins.
"Christianity" is dying in the world as it becomes more and more godless....yielding to the will of the people, rather than yielding to the will of God.....but it was never real to start with IMO. Having read the parable of the "wheat and the weeds" I began to see the big picture.

The one thing I admired about the Witnesses was their unity...they all believed the same things and were taught the same truths in every nation on earth. They were also the only ones fulfilling the 'great commission' on the same scale.....who else was calling at your door with the "good news of God's Kingdom" in every country? (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 10:11-14)

So these are just a few reasons...there are many more...
 

McFearless

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Well, coming out of the Anglican church, completely disgusted by the hypocrisy I witnessed in that church, I can only speak for myself and my own experiences. When I left the church I went searching for God in other denominations, only to find them teaching the same false doctrines under a different banner.....I sometimes wondered what made them call themselves by different labels? Their core beliefs were basically the same.

What was I seeing that made me want to leave? So many things.....the fact that there was one minister who taught whatever he liked in 'his' church...and that people who disagreed with him could go to the same denomination's church in the next suburb and be happy with what was taught by that minister, really made me realize how loose it all was.
Jesus taught one truth....and all his disciples accepted it without hesitation, knowing from whom it came....not just from Jesus, but everything Jesus taught was from his Father. (John 7:15-16)

I was bothered by the church's support for political issues, when I knew Jesus said his disciples were to be "no part of the world". (John 18:36) By their supporting one political side or the other they were dividing themselves along party lines even in their churches. And when it came time for the nations to go to war, the clergy were right there at the battlefield with them.....encouraging their charges to keep on killing those who may have been their 'brothers' of the same or a different denomination.....how could that have God's sanction? (Matthew 5:43-44) How can you "love your enemy" with a gun, a tank or a bomb?
sniper

Where was obedience to God and his son? They would rather be "friends with the world". (James 4:4)

In the days before the Internet, I did most of my research in books that addressed topics that I found interesting.....especially the origins of the beliefs that are held in most of the churches. Finding out that the things taught were in fact much older than Christianity, and were sold to the ignorant people by an unchristian Emperor, passing these pagan beliefs off under a different label. The more I looked, the more disgusted I became.

The "mother" church dictated false beliefs to those ignorant people for centuries, and later she turned out to be the parent of many daughters, who, even though they left home, took their mother's dirty laundry with them.

If you examine Christendom's core doctrines and shine the light of the Bible on them honestly.....you will find that none of them have Christian origins.
"Christianity" is dying in the world as it becomes more and more godless....yielding to the will of the people, rather than yielding to the will of God.....but it was never real to start with IMO. Having read the parable of the "wheat and the weeds" I began to see the big picture.

The one thing I admired about the Witnesses was their unity...they all believed the same things and were taught the same truths in every nation on earth. They were also the only ones fulfilling the 'great commission' on the same scale.....who else was calling at your door with the "good news of God's Kingdom" in every country? (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 10:11-14)

So these are just a few reasons...there are many more...

You are spot on with your criticisms of the organized churches - but it is also no wonder that JWs all believe the same if they are taught the same and shun all the people who don’t believe the same or in the same way. My grandma was a JW and I know about the filth within that church too - hypocrisy is a disease in all organized churches. We shouldn’t let other people interpret the Bible for us, we should read it with an open mind. You can’t rely on any pastors logic or narrative - that goes for every church and denomination - your salvation is simply too precious to allow people that kind of power. I agree that there were no questions asked when Jesus spoke, but I’m sure that you don’t mean to say that we should blindly follow our pastors like the disciples did Jesus?

I’m also amazed that members of the JW church report to the church, how many hours they’ve worked for the church.
I find it unbiblical - when we give we should give in secret and we shouldn’t share what we give or gain respect for our good works. We shouldn’t pray loudly on the streets to gain religious respect either, we should trust that God knows our works and that he rewards in secret.

I had a JW colleague, later friend, who I talked faith with, when we drove through the country and when we finished our 5 hour drive, he said that this was really nice and that it was double nice that he could now write hours on his JW worksheet for evangelizing to me.
I first found it hilarious but it also saddened me that the church organization is more important than the word of God. What if JW are wrong in some ways, how can they change their doctrines if they have a tough hierarchical structure.

I believe that churches like that become cruise ship instead of a hospital ship.

I don’t care much for theological debates, we need to ask God through prayer and we should remember that even Peter was wrong in hiding his relationship with the Gentiles or does the JW leadership have a theology even more precise than Peter, the disciple of Jesus?

Galatians 2:11-14 NKJV
Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?
 
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Aunty Jane

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You are spot on with your criticisms of the organized churches - but it is also no wonder that JWs all believe the same if they are taught the same and shun all the people who don’t believe the same or in the same way.
Who told you we shunned people who don’t share our beliefs? Like everyone else, we choose our friends based on mutual interests. That does not mean we shun those who have different beliefs, we just gravitate to those whom we feel comfortable being in their company, being able to discuss any topic freely. Since we love spiritual discussions we would be challenging company for those who do not share our beliefs.

We live in the world, but it doesn’t mean that we need to imitate it or adopt other people’s bad habits.

My grandma was a JW and I know about the filth within that church too - hypocrisy is a disease in all organized churches.
Well, here we go again....what “filth” would you be referring to as if it must taint every Witness on earth? We never claim to be perfect, but in my experience, we try harder than most to live up to what being a Christian actually means. We don’t just choose the convenient things and ignore the more difficult things. As you would be aware, every Witness of Jehovah is a preacher....(Matthew 10:11-14) It’s a work that Christ said he would direct, until the end of the age. (Matthew 28:19-20) Who else is doing it on the scale that Jesus said it would be done?

We shouldn’t let other people interpret the Bible for us, we should read it with an open mind. You can’t rely on any pastors logic or narrative - that goes for every church and denomination - your salvation is simply too precious to allow people that kind of power. I agree that there were no questions asked when Jesus spoke, but I’m sure that you don’t mean to say that we should blindly follow our pastors like the disciples did Jesus?
From my studies, it is very apparent that God never left his people without teachers. These teachers taught the same truth to all, no one was permitted to bring in their own ideas....that is how you attain unity. We study the Bible thoroughly as individuals and as a congregation. There is only one truth and one body of Christians who teach it. That is what the parable of the “wheat and the weeds” is all about.
There is genuine Christianity and a sad counterfeit that cannot agree on anything much....:(
 

Aunty Jane

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Continued....
I’m also amazed that members of the JW church report to the church, how many hours they’ve worked for the church.
I find it unbiblical - when we give we should give in secret and we shouldn’t share what we give or gain respect for our good works. We shouldn’t pray loudly on the streets to gain religious respect either, we should trust that God knows our works and that he rewards in secret.
I can assure you that you misunderstand the reasons for our monthly reporting. We publish a book every year for our members, outlining our activities in different countries. We can see how many hours were devoted to preaching the good news by our brothers and sisters, sometimes under very difficult circumstances, all over the world. It is encouraging for us all....and humbling that we may have had a small share in such a great global assignment. (Matthew 24:14)

The other advantage in keeping a watch on the flock is because the shepherds are under obligation to “know their sheep”. We don’t have just one minister but several elders who shepherd the flock in their care. Someone’s field activity is a fair indicator if something is wrong. It’s usually the first thing to fall away if someone is experiencing difficulties.
We are not anonymous backsides on pews, putting money in the ministers pocket, but we are known and loved members of a global family. All our elders are self supporting volunteers who selflessly offer loving assistance to any who are in need. When disasters take place, our brothers are usually first on the scene to offer assistance and comfort to our members, who will then offer their assistance to others if needed.

I had a JW colleague, later friend, who I talked faith with, when we drove through the country and when we finished our 5 hour drive, he said that this was really nice and that it was double nice that he could now write hours on his JW worksheet for evangelizing to me.
I hope that was taken ‘tongue in cheek’ because hours on a piece of paper are meaningless to God.
Our evangelism is well known all over the world. We would always take advantage of an opportunity to discuss spiritual things....on a bus, on a train, on the streets with our mobile carts, we are there ready to speak to anyone who wants to know what the Bible says about these troubled times in which we live.

I first found it hilarious but it also saddened me that the church organization is more important than the word of God. What if JW are wrong in some ways, how can they change their doctrines if they have a tough hierarchical structure.
I’m sure he meant it to be taken as a joke....and “what if” questions can be asked of all of us.

The churches have not changed their primary doctrines since the great apostasy took place in the declaration of Roman Catholicism as the state religion of the Roman Empire in the fourth century, and the various councils that changed everything that Christ taught, allowing the “weeds” to completely engulf the church and render it unacceptable to the one they claimed to worship. (Matthew 7:21-23)
 
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Aunty Jane

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Continued...
I believe that churches like that become cruise ship instead of a hospital ship.
The cruise ships have taken over...or haven’t you noticed? The hospitals need a hospital...:oops:

I don’t care much for theological debates, we need to ask God through prayer
Not quite sure what to make of that...? Asking God through prayer is exactly what we have to do, but being a Christian is something that must be done in company (Hebrews 10:24-25).....and in full agreement as Paul said....
1 Corinthians 1:10 NKJV...
“Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.”
Does this describe Christendom?

and we should remember that even Peter was wrong in hiding his relationship with the Gentiles or does the JW leadership have a theology even more precise than Peter, the disciple of Jesus?

Galatians 2:11-14 NKJV
Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?

Again what does this mean? Peter was an impetuous man, given to the fear of man as he had proven before on the night when Jesus was arrested. It was his weakness. The Gentiles that Peter was eating with were fellow Christians, but because some of the Jews were trying to push aspects of Judaism onto their Gentile brothers, a little bit of leftover animosity had caused some bad feelings. Paul observed Peter’s actions and called him out on it....and rightly so. We do the same in our brotherhood, if we see those who are behaving in an unchristian way, the elders will counsel them. We take the Bible seriously and abide by its teachings.....even when its difficult. Sometimes disciplinary action is needed. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

Just a word of warning my friend....if you engage me in conversation, I will answer you as honestly as I can, but my posts will be as detailed as I need them to be to address certain points. IOW....they could be a bit lengthy....:D
 

McFearless

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Continued...

The cruise ships have taken over...or haven’t you noticed? The hospitals need a hospital...:oops:


Not quite sure what to make of that...? Asking God through prayer is exactly what we have to do, but being a Christian is something that must be done in company (Hebrews 10:24-25).....and in full agreement as Paul said....
1 Corinthians 1:10 NKJV...
“Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.”
Does this describe Christendom?



Again what does this mean? Peter was an impetuous man, given to the fear of man as he had proven before on the night when Jesus was arrested. It was his weakness. The Gentiles that Peter was eating with were fellow Christians, but because some of the Jews were trying to push aspects of Judaism onto their Gentile brothers, a little bit of leftover animosity had caused some bad feelings. Paul observed Peter’s actions and called him out on it....and rightly so. We do the same in our brotherhood, if we see those who are behaving in an unchristian way, the elders will counsel them. We take the Bible seriously and abide by its teachings.....even when its difficult. Sometimes disciplinary action is needed. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

Just a word of warning my friend....if you engage me in conversation, I will answer you as honestly as I can, but my posts will be as detailed as I need them to be to address certain points. IOW....they could be a bit lengthy....:D

It’s okay for your posts to get lengthy, but I believe that Peter was wrong in both action and belief, when he acted like that, and I believe that Paul’s face to face wouldn’t have made a difference, if Peter had not agreed with Paul.
I think Peter agreed with Paul because of the perfect argument. I believe that every church (organization) are wrong in someway and I also believe that your JW translation of the Bible is made for the sole purpose of justifying an other branch of Christianity to organize around. I think some members of JW might enter heaven (I’m not the judge) but I’m personally convinced that they in that case, would have an unconventional JW belief (but that’s only my opinion/belief).

I also think the explanation in regards to works and hours is really just an explanation the church gives - and a forceful motivation to follow the leader. I don’t exclude and I think that works without faith is useless, even more so if the gospel preached is somewhat flawed.
The gospel og also really simple, so simple that children can understand it, and many adults can’t.
I also believe that the act of shunning is really terrible - you can wrap it up in which ever words you like. I’m not saying that it can’t ever be acceptable, but I’m saying that for parents to give up on their children - regardless of their actions or belief, is just cold hearted.
The fact that JW churches are willing to accept is just wild but they don’t only accept that behavior from parents, they even sometimes push parents towards that choice. That’s the filth I’m talking about.
But there is different kinds of filth in all kinds of churches - one can be in a Christian community without having a church building, I believe we should gather in our houses. Most JWs I know are pretty wealthy too (stocking up the worldly riches) so when you say that JWs are better or act better than many others, it just doesn’t cut it for me.

Only God knows the heart and can tell who is better and every denomination says the same “we’re the best, we believe the right way”

I’m not at all here to defend your beliefs, because I disagree, I don’t think I can judge you as an individual or even the “correctness” of your heart. And I especially don’t think I can see the works from a gathering of hours on the worksheet for next publication of the watch tower. But I challenge you to pray about it.
 

Alfredthefifth

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Does anyone disbute that The Watch Tower society, that is the Foundation of the JWs isn't it? Publicly claimed to know without a doubt when the LAST DAY WAS?

All is well the prophet just misread the signs!

This event and yes it is an event that happened makes me wonder.
I do not go out of my way to find JWs to attack, they come to me. Then if the Bible that they carry, carry as a prop is used in my discussions with them am I attacking? Or defending?

I stepped away from a church congress because the human element was corrupt and corrupting the church. Thankfully before I stepped away I had spiritual event happen to glorify God in my life. It happened because I overcame my distaste of a singular Church name and went to a church With the same exact name but in a different congress. I could take a snap shot of my youthful church and a snapshot of this other church and not find a difference. But my youthful church has become corrupted. The human elements of a church an earthly church do have an effect.
I know some very solid pastors that strive to keep the congresses corruption out of their Church and I honor them.

We make a change because of earthly things, earthly things that Paul taught against 2000 years ago.

I was wounded in spiritual life by humans that make up the controlling core of a church congress. But what I learned through the Spirit is to stay true to the Bible and stay true God. I have found my church's, through the Holy Spirit, this may change as new pastors enter the picture. But I in looking at a church am looking for a church firmly founded in Jesus, the grace through faith that he worked.

Unfortunately there are churches founded on false teachings, these churches look great and glorious and grow rapidly.
If faith alone is the core answer you have your faith and that is all one has to hold unto.
My faith is in the Forgiving God if the Bible, the Bible that teaches of God's love and forgiveness anything that even seems to put itself over the Bible pushes me away.
if YOU HAVE TO DO, is taught in any way, I see falsehood, because IT IS BY GRACE YOU SAVED THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS.
Anything I write after this will be an attack.

Trying to be faithful to God

Alfredthefifth
 

Earburner

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Really?

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is God's "only-begotten Son", and that his life began in heaven. He is described as God's first creation and the "exact representation of God", but is believed to be a separate entity and not part of a Trinity. Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs - Wikipedia
The Binitarian belief is that of God the Father and God the Son together, are the Holy Spirit together, being not another addition to the God head.
John.14[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him.
The problem with understanding the Binitarian view is not due to it's outline, but rather due to people attempting to explain it, not realizing that they are filtering their explanation through the Trinitarian view, which ultimately discredits both to the reader.

By the way, I am not a JW, and never have been.
 

Aunty Jane

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I believe that Peter was wrong in both action and belief, when he acted like that, and I believe that Paul’s face to face wouldn’t have made a difference, if Peter had not agreed with Paul.
I think Peter agreed with Paul because of the perfect argument.
I am not sure where you got the idea that I disagree with you here....?
Peter was corrected over a recognized fault, and saw that Paul was right. He repented.....as he should have. This incident also showed how others can be roped into wrong thinking....going along for appearances sake.

I believe that every church (organization) are wrong in someway and I also believe that your JW translation of the Bible is made for the sole purpose of justifying an other branch of Christianity to organize around.
I am seeing empty accusations, unsubstantiated by any examples.....I have studied many translations and make frequent reference to Strongs Concordance in order to check the original language word meanings.....and I find that the NWT is correct every time.

If you would like to give me some examples, we can examine them together......
facts
is what we need.
My research of all things has been thorough and the resources available to enhance our knowledge are also very abundant....this is what God told us to expect in this “time of the end”. (Daniel 12:4) Research is what I love....how about you?

I think some members of JW might enter heaven (I’m not the judge) but I’m personally convinced that they in that case, would have an unconventional JW belief (but that’s only my opinion/belief).
How magnanimous of you.....
unsure


What unconventional beliefs do you suspect they might have to have in order to “enter heaven”?
max


LOL....you do understand that the majority of JW’s on earth at this time have no desire to go to heaven?.....God did not create humans to live in heaven....he created millions of angels to inhabit that realm.....we are created to live on a carefully prepared earth...forever. Please tell me where Adam was ever promised heaven?...or hell for that matter.
 

Aunty Jane

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I also think the explanation in regards to works and hours is really just an explanation the church gives - and a forceful motivation to follow the leader. I don’t exclude and I think that works without faith is useless, even more so if the gospel preached is somewhat flawed.
I don’t think what you think is of any consequence to anyone but yourself....but in case you would really like to know....
Who told you 'works without faith' is what we practice? Its actually "Faith without works" that is "dead". You can’t have one without the other, as James clearly stated. (James 2:18-20)

And what is this ‘flawed gospel’ you speak of....please enlighten me....

I also believe that the act of shunning is really terrible - you can wrap it up in which ever words you like. I’m not saying that it can’t ever be acceptable, but I’m saying that for parents to give up on their children - regardless of their actions or belief, is just cold hearted.
Do you recall the parable of the Prodigal Son? Please tell me how much the father in the parable had to do with the son who wasted his whole inheritance on debauched living? Not a single mention is made of any family contact whilst that son was off doing his own thing. But when the money ran out, so did his friends. Destitute and hungry, he recalled how good his life was back at home, and he "came to his senses". His attitude was contrite as he determined to return to his father as a hired worker, no longer worthy to be called his son. With that display of genuine repentance and humility, the father ran to meet him and embraced him and welcomed him home......that is what we do. We imitate God by not condoning a lifestyle that is out of harmony with God’s standards. (Matthew 10:32-37) That will not be tolerated within our ranks and everyone knows that before they make a commitment to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

If our older children have made a dedication to God by undergoing Christian baptism of their own volition, and they decide to change their mind and engage in unchristian practices....we will not condone or support them in their choices.
If they "come to their senses" and repent of their former course, and demonstrate that they have left the situation that led them astray, they will undergo counseling and a probationary period before being welcomed back into the congregation.

The fact that JW churches are willing to accept is just wild but they don’t only accept that behavior from parents, they even sometimes push parents towards that choice. That’s the filth I’m talking about.
The rules are the rules...solely based on scripture.....there is "filth" and there is "filth"...it is how Jehovah views things that matters.
1 Corinthians 5:9-12...
"I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves." (NASB)

Seems pretty clear to me.....those who identify as Christians but who transgress God's laws unrepentantly, will be put out of the congregation. Those who fail to practice this cannot call themselves Christian pastors or shepherds. They are to judge inside the congregation whilst God judges those outside. If they fail to uphold God's standards, they too will pay the price. Discipline is often necessary as the Bible says...
Hebrews 12:5-11...
" And have you forgotten the encouraging words God spoke to you as his children? He said,
My child, don’t make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and don’t give up when he corrects you.

6 For the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes each one he accepts as his child.”


7 As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Who ever heard of a child who is never disciplined by its father? . . . .

10 For our earthly fathers disciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. But God’s discipline is always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness. 11 No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening—it’s painful! But afterward there will be a peaceful harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way."
(NLT)
Again...all biblical, not made up by us.
The scripture in 1 Corinthians 5 (quoted above) tells us who is responsible for administering that discipline.
 

Aunty Jane

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But there is different kinds of filth in all kinds of churches - one can be in a Christian community without having a church building, I believe we should gather in our houses. Most JWs I know are pretty wealthy too (stocking up the worldly riches) so when you say that JWs are better or act better than many others, it just doesn’t cut it for me.
I think you make a lot of assumptions based on your own prejudices TBH....I know because I once held those prejudices myself. But having spent a considerable time with JW's and studying the scriptures with them (using my own KJV Bible) I came to understand how ignorance feeds prejudice, and what Jesus and his first century disciples must have endured at that time. If people can be conned into believing that the son of God is a fraud, then anything is possible.
Jesus told his disciples that they would face the same hostility as he did. (John 15:18-21)

As for the wealthy aspect.....it isn't against God's law to have money.....it isn't money per se that is "the root of all evil"....its "the love of it" and what a person is willing to do to obtain it. Wealthy people within our brotherhood are often very generous, especially when their brothers in their own country or in other lands have undergone a disaster of some sort. So reserve your judgment, and please bury that prejudice as it apparently brings out a very judgmental spirit in you....

Only God knows the heart and can tell who is better and every denomination says the same “we’re the best, we believe the right way”
This is again a very ignorant comment IMO.....anyone who has any Bible knowledge will know that at the judgment there are only "sheep and goats".....Jesus is the one who is doing the separating, but in Matthew 7:21-23 we see clearly that those who "think" that they are Christ's disciples are told in no uncertain terms....
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’" (NASB)

What a smack in the face! Their defense is pathetic because none of them have "done the will of the Father"....yet it seems as if they have no idea....
dunno


I’m not at all here to defend your beliefs, because I disagree, I don’t think I can judge you as an individual or even the “correctness” of your heart. And I especially don’t think I can see the works from a gathering of hours on the worksheet for next publication of the watch tower. But I challenge you to pray about it.
What if I was to tell you to pray about the way you judge others, just because they believe what you do not....those whom Jesus rejects are pretty darn sure of themselves.....but as you can see, it cuts no mustard with the appointed judge....IDK

We can confidently allow the judge to do his job.....no?
 

robert derrick

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  1. Proverbs 10:12
    Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins.

  2. Proverbs 15:18
    A wrathful man stirs up strife, But he who is slow to anger allays contention.

  3. Proverbs 28:25
    He who is of a proud heart stirs up strife, But he who trusts in the Lord will be prospered.

  4. Proverbs 29:22
    An angry man stirs up strife, And a furious man abounds in transgression.
Is that what the new revelation of mysterious truth for this time is, Unitarianism?

The mystery revealed that is now, which is at this time, and better than the time of the times gone before?

Old flesh and blood revelation has been good for times, but new spiritual greater design revealed at this time is even better, so much better than the old heaven and earth, is the foundation for the new now fully realized today, at this time, which is the time of the end.

I like mystery-speak. You can talk in it almost forever and never really say anything. And it sounds so mysterious.
 

robert derrick

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I wasn't aware that JW's run this forum. Are Muslims allowed? I'm not Muslim FYI.
I don't want anyone banned.

As Thomas Edison said, He learned 999 ways how not to do it, until he learned the one way to do it.

In correcting OSAS, created christers, mariologists, sabbath commanders, 2:38 baptizers, etc...I have learned more truth of Scripture than ever before, as well as walking as Jesus walked with grace in His righteousness.

I speak with them less and less, because most of their stuff is old hat, but they still come across with some new gems now and then.

And it would be refreshing to have Muslims here. All we need do is speak of Jesus as Lord and God every time they come on.
 

McFearless

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I think you make a lot of assumptions based on your own prejudices TBH....I know because I once held those prejudices myself. But having spent a considerable time with JW's and studying the scriptures with them (using my own KJV Bible) I came to understand how ignorance feeds prejudice, and what Jesus and his first century disciples must have endured at that time. If people can be conned into believing that the son of God is a fraud, then anything is possible.
Jesus told his disciples that they would face the same hostility as he did. (John 15:18-21)

As for the wealthy aspect.....it isn't against God's law to have money.....it isn't money per se that is "the root of all evil"....its "the love of it" and what a person is willing to do to obtain it. Wealthy people within our brotherhood are often very generous, especially when their brothers in their own country or in other lands have undergone a disaster of some sort. So reserve your judgment, and please bury that prejudice as it apparently brings out a very judgmental spirit in you....


This is again a very ignorant comment IMO.....anyone who has any Bible knowledge will know that at the judgment there are only "sheep and goats".....Jesus is the one who is doing the separating, but in Matthew 7:21-23 we see clearly that those who "think" that they are Christ's disciples are told in no uncertain terms....
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’" (NASB)

What a smack in the face! Their defense is pathetic because none of them have "done the will of the Father"....yet it seems as if they have no idea....
dunno



What if I was to tell you to pray about the way you judge others, just because they believe what you do not....those whom Jesus rejects are pretty darn sure of themselves.....but as you can see, it cuts no mustard with the appointed judge....IDK

We can confidently allow the judge to do his job.....no?

It’s hilarious how you are grasping for air in this flawed argument you are presenting. It’s true that Faith without works is worthless but can’t you fathom that to goes both ways. Your works won’t save you, your faith will. So if you work without faith, you are not entering heaven either. When people get caught arguing like you are arguing, clinging to single verses instead of context, just to be right, you know that they are more prideful than truthful.

In the parable regarding the prodigal son he wasn’t sent away, he wanted to leave with his inheritance, the father could have given him nothing, but he didn’t.
The reason he was ashamed to come back was because he blew all this money drinking and fornicating, not because his father sent him away. The son left because he wanted to travel, not because him and his father was angry at each other. He was just ashamed that he had wasted his fathers blessings, but even so the father was waiting for him, looking out.

If you want to find scripture supporting shunning you should point towards


1 Corinthians 5
King James Version

5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
 

Brakelite

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JW's don't even believe in the eternal Hell fire
Oh my goodness gracious me. There are people who actually don't believe God tortures sinners for ever and ever and ever and ever and....? What are they thinking? What kind of God do they believe in??? Do they believe in a God who actually wants an end of sin and evil and those who practise it? Surely not. Sin and sinners ought never to end. We need them and their suffering to remind us righteous happy joyful holy people that but for the grace of God, there we could be. If we forget, we could hop into a cave and if we listen carefully, hear their wailing and gnashing of teeth, in between their cursing and blaspheming and abusing of one another. That'll be fun. A great reality check right?
 

ScottA

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Is that what the new revelation of mysterious truth for this time is, Unitarianism?

The mystery revealed that is now, which is at this time, and better than the time of the times gone before?

Old flesh and blood revelation has been good for times, but new spiritual greater design revealed at this time is even better, so much better than the old heaven and earth, is the foundation for the new now fully realized today, at this time, which is the time of the end.

I like mystery-speak. You can talk in it almost forever and never really say anything. And it sounds so mysterious.
Give ear, O my people, to my law;
Incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
2 I will open my mouth in a parable;
I will utter dark sayings of old,
3 Which we have heard and known,
And our fathers have told us.
4 We will not hide them from their children,
Telling to the generation to come the praises of the Lord,
And His strength and His wonderful works that He has done. Psalm 78:1-4​