The Gospel

Those who profess to be Christians and yet live in sin are deceiving themselves.

Duckybill said:

Those who profess to be Christians and yet live in sin are deceiving themselves.

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Really.... How do you do it then?

FHII said:

Really.... How do you do it then?

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How do I do what?

Prentis said:

You can take one verse and ignore the rest if you want to... But it's not recommended!

To he who overcomes... Those who are BEING sanctified (Hebrews)... Make your calling and election sure... Not as though I had already attained, but I press on... WHEN he has endured the fiery trial, he will receive the crown of life.... He who ENDURES to the end, he shall be saved... It remains for some (of your brothers) to enter his rest!...

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What a mess... Prentis, you took a fragment of a bunch of verses and strung them together, didn't you? The first is probably from Revelation, Then you went to Romans (misidentifying it as Hebrews, which I can excuse), then off to 2nd Peter, then jumping Phillipians. Next Matthew. The last one I guess is probably from Hebrews, but I couldn't find anything that matches what you wrote.

So when I find a verse (you claiming I only found one, but that isn't true either, is it?) and quote the whole thing, and am willing to look at the entire chapter for proper context, you claim I am only taking one verse and ignoring the rest. Then you take fragments of a bunch of verses (not even the whole verse) and string them together, and call that a theory to support sanctification being a continual process.

Now which is worse?

Hey, I'm willing to look at all those verses one by one and discuss them. Would you then accuse me of trying to find a way around those verse once I put them in proper context? You on the other hand string a bunch of verses and ignore the two I gave you. Gimmie a break, Prentis.

Let me help you out because in the overall scope of things, there are similarities we can agree on. Sanctification is not something we do to/for ourselves. I think we agree on that. It is not a process though, it is something as I have identified that was done once by the death of Jesus. What is an ongoing process is faith. That must be generated day by day and must be increased.

So sanctification is not something that can be increased. It's either there or its not. Can it be lost? I can't say it can't be, because Hebrews 10:28 suggests it can. However, 1 John 2 says brethren who depart from the faith never were truly brothren to begin with.

So, sanctification is what we get for continuing in faith. We don't renew or increase it. Faith can be increased and renewed daily. you can look at 2 Cor 4:16, Eph 4:23, Col 3:10, Luke 17:5, Matthew 6:33-4, Romans 10:14-17, 1 Cor 1:21 and Hebrews 10:25 for verification on Faith being increased, and how to increase it. By all means, read each of these chapters in it's entirety to check for context if you wish.

you also wrote:

"Do you have no faith that the life and power of Christ is greater than the flesh? Do you not believe that through CHRIST you can overcome?"

Yea, I actually do. I however believe grace through faith covers ALL sins of the flesh. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. If you want to talk about "running the race", loving brethren, temperance, overcimng not being brought under the power of, etc... Fine. I agree with all that, and we can talk about them once you organize your thoughts and bring the verses up one by one instead of in a gulash of a statement. However, it comes off that most people here believe that willful sins are not covered. I do not buy into that theory. I am not condoning wilfull sins, and it's best that they be romoved. But grace still covers all sins of the flesh. There are no catagories of big sins, little sins, intentional sins, unintentional sins, repeated sins, unrepeated sins, etc.

Prentis wrote:
"My point is that you are taking one side, the side that says 'has', the side that says, we were saved, and build everything around it. Yes, we were saved out of Egypt, but that far from guarantees entering the promised land."

That's absolutely true. It's called, "making a stand!" And you are doing the same thing with your side. I expect you to... I reality, I am not saying it guarantees anything. I do believe in predestination, but that doesn't mean there isn't a race to be run, as you like to put it.

When you find that verse in Hebrews, please by all means post it. I looked and it's not there. "sanctified" is found 4 times in that book. 3 times it says "are sanctified", once it says, "was sancified".


You wrote:

"Grace is the power to overcome. We must leave behind iniquity. Is God a respecter of persons, and can we somehow erase the need for obedience by claiming his name? Is not just there to cover sins. By his blood we were cleansed, by his grace we stand firm."

We can overcome, but that's not what grace is. Leaving behind iniquity is fine, but you are either going to leave it all behind or you still have it. Grace does cover sins, and I've shown that to you directly with scripture. To overcome doesn't imply stop doing or refrain from. That's not overcoming that's avoidance. Overcoming means to subdue, conquer, prevail or to get victory over. You aren't going to avoid or stop doing the things of the flesh, but you can subdue it and get victory over it.

As for Romans 5:1-2, I've already discussed this.

Obedience to his word, yes. That does not mean obedience to a Law we are no longer under, which is the strength of sin.

FHII said:

When you find that verse in Hebrews, please by all means post it. I looked and it's not there. "sanctified" is found 4 times in that book. 3 times it says "are sanctified", once it says, "was sancified".

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Prentis is referring to Hebrews 10:14. Again we meet there with the KJV's occasional mishandling of the Greek present tense.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. KJV

Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. ESV

Them that are sanctified (tous hagiazomenous). Articular participle (accusative case) present passive of hagiazō (note perfect in Heb_10:10) either because of the process still going on or because of the repetition in so many persons as in Heb_2:11. - Robertson's Word Pictures on Hebrews 10:14

Prentis said:

The reason might be the version, I was looking in the KJV

Hebrews 2:11
For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Yes, overcoming is to overcome the power of the flesh, of the devil, and of the world, which are all opposed to our walking in the light of Christ.

But unless we respond to the grace (power of God working in us) by using it to glorify God and bring growth, God will not be pleased.

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Prentis, which Bible do you use? I don't generally bother with people who switch from Bible to Bible. I don't look down on them, but I have my reasons for not bothering to talk Bible with them.

If you want to believe and preach sanctification as a process, that's ok. I don't see the Bible supporting it because of the overall definition of the word, as well as the context in which it is used. Again, faith is a process and something we grow in and renew. I suppose its not bad if you believe that every day we must be made holy again. I for one, don't.

I would like to know where you came up with that definition for grace as well....

Prentis said:

I use the KJV, mainly, but don't mind looking into other versions. Ultimately I like seeing if it matches up with the Greek/Hebrew.

I don't believe we must be made holy 'again'. But we can never look back and say 'there, done'. It says 'you shall love the Lord your God'. If we read that, when can we ever say 'done'? Never, it says 'shall'. Every day is a new day, and a day in which we must move forward with our Lord.

I see salvation as a process, and sanctification as part of it. Yes, it is attributed us when we are first regenerated, born again. But then it must become part of our character, we must walk in the power of new life, and be sanctified, made holy. It says 'a student is not greater than his teacher, but WHEN he is fully trained, he is just as his master'. This is Jesus talking to the disciples.

I see this definition of grace in the Bible, because the definition 'unmerited favor' makes no sense. It is true that we receive grace not according to works, and so the grace is unmerited, like a gift is, but the gift itself is not unmerited favor, but power. In other words, we receive that power without any merit for receiving it, at first. Then we must show ourselves faithful and worthy.

This is how I define it because it says that we 'stand' by the grace of God, that means it upholds us. Does mercy uphold you, or rather make you free? Grace is the power which allows you to be as he is. It also says that grace 'travails' or 'labors' in us. Does unmerited favor, being freely forgiven, literally work in you to conform you to Christ, to give you power? No. Grace is the power of God which works in us both to will AND to do what pleases the Father. A few times Paul says 'Grace be with you all'... Unmerited favor be with you all? Of course not. Paul is not trying to have pampered people here, he is talking about walking in the power of God. Here's another reason...

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

1 Peter 1:5
who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

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Prentis, that's all a bit far fetched from where I see it. Several points:

1. Please reread Romans 5:2. It does not say we stand by grace. It says, "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." The "wherein we stand" tell us about where we are, not what we do.
2. Ephesians 2:8 says "by grace we are saved through faith..." But I fail to see grace as what upholds us when faith is the reason we got grace. Faith is the work, grace is the gift.
3. 1 Peter 1:5 is your strongest point. I'll give you that (but you really didn't explain why....), but the Bible defines what the "power of God" is.
4. Romans 1:16 says the power of God is the gospel of Christ. If you want to link that to grace, I can see it, because by the gospel of Christ we have grace through faith.
5. You could also make a strong point by something Jesus said. But ya missed it!
6. As for Paul's salutation of "grace be with you".... Sorry, gotta dismiss that one because there is nothing wrong with "unmerited favor be with you.

It's not bad reasoning.... I commend you on your efforts. However, unmerited favor is still the best answer between the two. The reasons are

A. The Gospel is the power of God. (Which produces faith, which results in grace)
B. Grace is the state we are in. Faith is how we got there through faith.

Prentis wrote:

"Does it make any sense that the 'unmerited favor' of God was on Jesus?"

Ok.... Let's go that route. You also said:

"It is true that we receive grace not according to works, and so the grace is unmerited like a gift is, but the gift itself is not unmerited favor, but power. In other words, we receive that power without any merit for receiving it"

So was this "power" unmerited when given to Jesus Christ?

You also said:

"Yes, it is about God's mercy and forgiveness in the face of our repentance."

Did Jesus need it? And did he get it? Believe it or not, Jesus did repent in a way, but did he need to repent of anything? I realize these are rediculous questions, but no more rediculous than you asking if Jesus needed unmerited favor, when we do.

Yes, grace is powerful, but it is by faith that we are IN grace. And grace says that all things are lawful to us.

Prentis said:

Yes, the most basic of things. Yet unless we understand it, how will we move in the right direction? In this thread, the aim will be to lay out the gospel, it's purpose, and discuss it.

The Gospel starts at Reconciliation

Romans 5:6
For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 5:10
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son...

'Repent and believe, and you will be saved'. In this way, we are brought into the race, and by faith, find access to his grace.

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

This is available to all who repent and believe, and is according to his mercy and his calling.

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I have to say though that's not the original gospel.......the original gospel is what Jesus preached. Remember, Jesus did not preach a message about Himself. In fact, He did not tell the disciples that He came to die for the sins of the world……they did not even know He was going to die until close to the end of His ministry. But for three and a half years He preached the gospel of the kingdom in the form a parables. The scriptures you quote is only a means or message that would point to the gospel.


The original gospel is about the restoring of the kingdom of God back on the Earth....the taking back from Satan what Adam gave to him. The gospel is about putting man (human beings) back where we are ment to be......lords over God's creation. It is that same gospel that Jesus said will be preached before the end of man's Satan inspired system comes to an end.

Prentis said:

How do we walk in the kingdom, and be kingdom people?

By walking in the light!

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As Myles Munroe would say, that’s the culture of the of Heaven/kingdom God.