Are Muslims Allowed Here?

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ChristisGod

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I don't believe JW's "run" this forum, but they love to be here to undermine Bible doctrines. There was a Muslim here sometime ago, promoting Islam and undermining Christianity. I guess he got fed up of getting nowhere. We also have a lot of heterodox people around here with strange and bizarre doctrines.
Is there any truth to that claim that its run by JW's. That would seem to go against JW written beliefs to be inclusive.
 

Enoch111

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That would seem to go against JW written beliefs to be inclusive.
How can they be "inclusive" if only 144,000 of them will be in Heaven?:cool:

'Jehovah's Witnesses believe that exactly 144,000 faithful Christians from Pentecost of 33 AD until the present day will be resurrected to heaven as immortal spirit beings to spend eternity with God and Christ. They believe that these people are "anointed" by God to become part of the spiritual "Israel of God".'
 
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Aunty Jane

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It’s hilarious how you are grasping for air in this flawed argument you are presenting. It’s true that Faith without works is worthless but can’t you fathom that to goes both ways. Your works won’t save you, your faith will.
I am left a bit bemused by this response....apparently, one of us cannot read......and I don't think its me....
unsure


James 2:14, 17, 18-20, 26 NKJV....
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?. . . .Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”. . . .
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”


Hellooooo. Would you like to rethink your statement? One of us is 'gasping'.......would you like some oxygen....?

So if you work without faith, you are not entering heaven either. When people get caught arguing like you are arguing, clinging to single verses instead of context, just to be right, you know that they are more prideful than truthful.
What is this assumption that I/we have no faith? Ignorance is again speaking. Faith is what prompts the works. You must have both.....faith comes first and is demonstrated by works. Abraham is used by James as a foremost example.....he demonstrated his faith by his works......
James 2:21-24....
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. (NKJV)

What is out of context?....excuses!.....all I am getting is excuses. IDK Calling you out for clear errors in interpretation is not prideful...its my duty to tell the truth. If you can't hear the truth...that is nothing to do with me.

In the parable regarding the prodigal son he wasn’t sent away, he wanted to leave with his inheritance, the father could have given him nothing, but he didn’t.
The reason he was ashamed to come back was because he blew all this money drinking and fornicating, not because his father sent him away. The son left because he wanted to travel, not because him and his father was angry at each other. He was just ashamed that he had wasted his fathers blessings, but even so the father was waiting for him, looking out.
Yes, it’s a parable.....and the players are obvious...or they should be.
The Father pictures Jehovah....the son (the younger one of his children) was asking to leave his father’s household and to take his full inheritance (something he would not have been entitled to until his father’s death) so this pictures his life, lived as he wanted to live it, not as his father or his brother would have wanted him to.

His father did not try to stop him doing what he knew was extremely foolish, and handed him his life to do with as he wished, he was not going to force his son to live a life that he did not choose.
But he never gave up hope that his son would return. But if he had returned with the wrong attitude, unrepentant, his father would have sent him packing as the ungrateful son he may have showed himself to be....to his father’s delight however, he came home with the right attitude, with no coercion or support from his family...it was his own choice. He was permitted to live his own object lesson, without interference. Life lessons are the most valuable....don't you think?

If you want to find scripture supporting shunning you should point towards


1 Corinthians 5
King James Version

5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Read that again...(even in a more modern English translation) and see that it says the opposite to what you want it to.....

You are making assumptions which contradict other scripture, that has already been given to you.
Verse 5 isn't saying what you imagine....."To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."....this means ridding the congregation of a corrupting influence (the leaven) so that "the spirit" of the congregation is preserved when the Lord Jesus comes as judge. This is about kicking the wicked one out of the congregation to prevent them from spreading their wicked ideas to others.
John says that this applies to those who want to introduce their own ideas as well....(2 John 9-11)
Who is "the faithful and wise slave" of Matthew 24:45?

You don't do much Bible study do you...?
 

Aunty Jane

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How can they be "inclusive" if only 144,000 of them will be in Heaven?:cool:

'Jehovah's Witnesses believe that exactly 144,000 faithful Christians from Pentecost of 33 AD until the present day will be resurrected to heaven as immortal spirit beings to spend eternity with God and Christ. They believe that these people are "anointed" by God to become part of the spiritual "Israel of God".'
For what reason does God choose "some" to go to heaven in the first place?
The "chosen ones" are indeed chosen by God for a special assignment.....to rule with Christ as "kings and priests" in heaven.....since kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties, those who are in heaven do not rule one another, and there are no sinners in heaven......(Revelation 20:6)
Who are described in Revelation 21:2-4? And where are they?

Even in the first century, not all had "the heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) Paul identified some as "saints" and others who were not, each group having the same "Lord".
"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours". (1 Corinthians 1:2)

In Revelation, the 144,000 are contrasted with a "great multitude" who are seen in white robes attributing salvation to God and the Lamb. (Revelation 7:9-10, 13-14) It is clear that the 144,000 are bought from among mankind as "firstfruits", meaning that the resurrection of these ones is followed by another, secondary crop....those who would be their subjects on earth.
These are described as those who "come out of the great tribulation" which takes place on earth. These survivors will remain on earth as the nucleus of the "new earth" (John 5:28-29; 2 Peter 3:13) They are the ones mentioned by Jesus in John 5:28-29. This is the 'general resurrection' alluded to when Lazarus' sister spoke of her brother's resurrection "on the last day". (John 11:20-24) This is not to be confused with "the first resurrection" which is for Christ's elect.....his anointed ones, who will be resurrected to spirit life before the marriage of the lamb takes place....when all of the anointed "saints" are gathered together....to begin ruling over redeemed mankind on earth.....
Why would God take everyone to heaven?....that would be all Chiefs and no Indians!
max
 

McFearless

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I am left a bit bemused by this response....apparently, one of us cannot read......and I don't think its me....
unsure


James 2:14, 17, 18-20, 26 NKJV....
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?. . . .Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”. . . .
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”


Hellooooo. Would you like to rethink your statement? One of us is 'gasping'.......would you like some oxygen....?


What is this assumption that I/we have no faith? Ignorance is again speaking. Faith is what prompts the works. You must have both.....faith comes first and is demonstrated by works. Abraham is used by James as a foremost example.....he demonstrated his faith by his works......
James 2:21-24....
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. (NKJV)

What is out of context?....excuses!.....all I am getting is excuses. IDK Calling you out for clear errors in interpretation is not prideful...its my duty to tell the truth. If you can't hear the truth...that is nothing to do with me.


Yes, it’s a parable.....and the players are obvious...or they should be.
The Father pictures Jehovah....the son (the younger one of his children) was asking to leave his father’s household and to take his full inheritance (something he would not have been entitled to until his father’s death) so this pictures his life, lived as he wanted to live it, not as his father or his brother would have wanted him to.

His father did not try to stop him doing what he knew was extremely foolish, and handed him his life to do with as he wished, he was not going to force his son to live a life that he did not choose.
But he never gave up hope that his son would return. But if he had returned with the wrong attitude, unrepentant, his father would have sent him packing as the ungrateful son he may have showed himself to be....to his father’s delight however, he came home with the right attitude, with no coercion or support from his family...it was his own choice. He was permitted to live his own object lesson, without interference. Life lessons are the most valuable....don't you think?


Read that again...(even in a more modern English translation) and see that it says the opposite to what you want it to.....

You are making assumptions which contradict other scripture, that has already been given to you.
Verse 5 isn't saying what you imagine....."To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."....this means ridding the congregation of a corrupting influence (the leaven) so that "the spirit" of the congregation is preserved when the Lord Jesus comes as judge. This is about kicking the wicked one out of the congregation to prevent them from spreading their wicked ideas to others.
John says that this applies to those who want to introduce their own ideas as well....(2 John 9-11)
Who is "the faithful and wise slave" of Matthew 24:45?

You don't do much Bible study do you...?

This is funny once again!

Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


John 3:16
King James Version

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is exactly why many people see JW as a Cult. It has an top down structure and its members depend on other people (The watchtower) to tell them what is in the Bible and what to believe.

James is merely pointing out that our beliefs will always manifest in action. When James says that faith without work is a dead faith, he is directly telling us that it isn’t faith at all.
Before Paul saw the light he acted also according to his faith, he hated Christian’s and he believed it was right to do so, so he acted accordingly. It is not possible to truly believe in something without acting on it. Paul’s prosecution of Christians wouldn’t have saved him, you need to have the right faith (Jesus).
So when JWs boast of their works and share their hours with the church, they’ve totally misunderstood both James, Paul and John.

Faith without works is a dead faith but works without the right faith is useless because it won’t save you anyways. James is merely pointing out the most simple cause and effect between faith and works, and here you are trying to say it only works one way. You are saved by faith alone, not works. The works is just the fruits of our faith.

I know JWs don’t believe in Hell, maybe that’s why you guys are so careless in regards to false teaching.

Luke, 17:1-2
Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

One doesn’t need much Bible Study to debate a JW, that’s the essence of your church, the members doesn’t think for them selves which makes it incredibly easy to spot the errors.
 

Aunty Jane

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This is funny once again!

Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version


8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
My goodness! Are you for real?
max
....."faith" is what comes first and it prompts works.....it would be good to see what "works" the 'would-be Christians' are actually doing...as a result of their faith?
Any "works" I see in my own community are pretty well nigh on to useless. One of the churches where I live had something called "Hope Fellowship" where people were invited to hear someone speak some encouraging words from the Bible and later join them for a free feed....people turned up, but not for the speech...they turned up for the free food.....it was nicknamed "Hopeless Fellowship" for obvious reasons.

Others tried having live music bands to encourage the youth, but they just ended up being rock concerts pretending to be church...it didn't last long.

Another local minister was offered a job as chaplain for the armed services....he left his church without a minister to take up a post that came with a Captain's salary.....many in his congregation were very angry that he put himself before his congregation.

The churches are dying as the world becomes more and more godless. But we had to get to this point as Jesus said....
"But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."

And here we are.....again....and the masses are just as clueless.

John 3:16
King James Version


16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is exactly why many people see JW as a Cult. It has an top down structure and its members depend on other people (The watchtower) to tell them what is in the Bible and what to believe.
Don't look now but that is exactly how the first century Christians conducted themselves....there was a governing body in Jerusalem who gave direction to all the congregations by letter.....the circumcision issue comes to mind, and how do you suppose that was handled? (Acts 15:22-33)
"Top down structure" was practiced in the first century congregations and also practiced in Israel....it must be something God approves of....instead of those who just want to make it all up for themselves as they go along. No one was free to interpret the scriptures for themselves....why do you think Christendom is such a divided mess? (1 Corinthians 1:10)

James is merely pointing out that our beliefs will always manifest in action. When James says that faith without work is a dead faith, he is directly telling us that it isn’t faith at all.

Paul’s prosecution of Christians wouldn’t have saved him, you need to have the right faith (Jesus).
So when JWs boast of their works and share their hours with the church, they’ve totally misunderstood both James, Paul and John.
You seem to have some reason to accuse us of 'boasting'.....when have we done that? Its fair to compare because how else will people see the great discrepancy between those who are fulfilling the great commission, and those who make excuses not to.
When was the last time someone from your church called on people at their homes like Jesus sent out his disciples, to preach to them about the Kingdom? (Matthew 10:11-14)
Can you tell me what the Kingdom is, that we are to preach about? How does it "come" and what will it accomplish?
It occurred to me that in being raised in the Anglican church, and being taught to pray the Lord's Prayer every week.....I had no idea what I was praying for, so can you tell me what it means?

I know JWs don’t believe in Hell, maybe that’s why you guys are so careless in regards to false teaching.
Jesus never taught about such a place....a cruel and heartless God would require eternal torture with no way to repent....not a God of justice.

If you read John 3:16 that you quoted above....you will see what you overlooked....
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Most people concentrate on the first part of that well known verse, but miss the import of the second part....Eternal life is contrasted with eternal death.

To "perish" is "apollymi", which according to Strongs, means...

"to destroy
  1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end, to ruin
  2. render useless
  3. to kill"
Jesus is not saying that those who do not believe will rot in hell.....he is saying that they will be eliminated from life....completely destroyed...the "second death" is one from which there is no resurrection. Why would God demand eternal suffering? What is the point of that?

One doesn’t need much Bible Study to debate a JW, that’s the essence of your church, the members doesn’t think for them selves which makes it incredibly easy to spot the errors.
Well actually I see no debate much at all from you...you ignore way more than you address and then only attack, which is what people do when they have run out of excuses.
You really cannot support what you believe, and I find that disappointing because you enter a debate forum to debate.
swordfight


It is clear that you are no Bible student and "debating" with you is rather pointless..... if you have done no study, how on earth can you defend what you believe? You are just spouting your own party line, which is what you accuse us of doing....
palm
 

Jack

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Jesus never taught about such a place....a cruel and heartless God would require eternal torture with no way to repent....not a God of justice.
Which Bible are you reading? I don't know of any translation that doesn't warn us of the "everlasting fire" and "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".
Jesus never taught Hell? Who do you think said this?
Matthew 5
22 Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
 
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McFearless

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@Aunty Jane
Now everyone can see your falsehoods, what’s done in the dark must be brought to the light.

Jesus never taught about such a place....a cruel and heartless God would require eternal torture with no way to repent....not a God of justice.

Who are you to judge a perfect God, do you think you set the standard for justice? Can you divide the light from the darkness. You calling God cruel says it all, you haven’t surrendered to him, you have no clue what justice is and you don’t know about grace either. Your accusation against God will not go overheard and I pray that you repent from your sinful ways.

It is justice to send us all to eternal hellfire, had it not been for his perfect sacrifice. Now people can decide to repent or they can die with the consequences.

Regarding the top down structure I would remind you that Paul, corrected Peter. Just admit it, you don’t believe that it’s possible with a real church because you have no faith in the Holy Spirit or miracles. You don’t believe that God intervenes through prayer. The church should be led by the Holy Spirit.
The same way Israel should have accepted God as their king instead of a king in flesh, the same way you should accept the Holy Spirit instead of a headquarter somewhere.

No wonder you are all wrong when you are taught the same thing.
 

Aunty Jane

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Which Bible are you reading? I don't know of any translation that doesn't warn us of the "everlasting fire" and "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".
Jesus never taught Hell? Who do you think said this?
Matthew 5
22 Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
This is such a good question Jack.....
Do you know what the word “Hell” is translated from in the Bible? There are several words that the translators used just one English word for....”Sheol” (Hebrew) “hades”, “Gehenna” and “Tartarus” (Greek).

Then you have “the lake of fire” in Revelation, which is said to be “the second death”. If you have done no original word studies, and trusted the English translators to render these words with one misinterpreted word according to the idea of a fiery hell (which originated in pagan Greek ideas, not the Bible) then you will never arrive at the correct interpretation. Jesus did not say what you have been led to believe that he did. Christendom has been teaching the devil’s lie for centuries....when he told Eve.....”you surely will not die”.

“Sheol” in Hebrew never meant a place of eternal torment. It was the place where all the dead go...the common grave of all mankind. In the Septuagint (A Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures used in the early days of Christianity when Greek was the common language) Sheol was translated as “hades”.
Hades is therefore nothing to do with a fiery hell. The Jews had no such belief. So where does this “everlasting fire” come from?

This is where “Gehenna” comes in, which is what Jesus spoke about. So, to his Jewish audience, what did “Gehenna” mean? Since the Jews had no belief in life after death (such as an immortal soul, which was another adopted belief from Greek ideas) Gehenna had a completely different meaning to them.

“Gehenna” was the Valley of Hinnom, which was the city’s garbage dump outside the walls of Jerusalem. Fires were kept burning day and night to consume the refuse.....carcasses of dead animals as well as the bodies of executed criminals were often cast into the flames for disposal.....whatever the flames missed, the maggots finished off. Nothing alive ever went into Gehenna.

To a Jew, being thrown into “Gehenna” meant that they had no burial place with their names and lineage inscribed......it was considered the end of that person’s existence....it meant no resurrection. There is no fiery hell in any of Jesus’ teachings. It is completely opposite to God’s personality....he never tortured anyone. Israel did not even have any jails. Incarceration had no advantage because God’s law was about justice and compensation....about repentance and forgiveness. Hell achieves none of that.

In the Hebrew scriptures that Jesus used (the only scripture in existence at that time) Ecclesiastes, which was written by Solomon, said.....
“This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun. . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.” (Ecclesiastes 9:3-6,10 - NKJV)

The word translated “grave” there is “Sheol”. “Going to the dead” meant joining them in the grave”...a place in which there was no consciousness....no emotions...no activity at all. “A living dog is better off than a dead lion” means that death is the end of life. Once you’re dead, you’re dead.....this is so confronting when you have been taught all your life to believe that you don’t really die....but that was the devil’s lie in Eden. Adam was told that if he disobeyed God’s command that he would die and return to the dust.....no life after death was ever mentioned.

The hope that the Jews and also the first Christians entertained, was resurrection...a restoration of life, rather than a continuation of it. Jesus resurrected Lazarus. (John 11:11-14)

Please consider the evidence, because the whole hellfire doctrine misrepresents God and paints him as a cruel fiend, rather than the loving God the scriptures tell us that he is.
 

Aunty Jane

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Not all. 75% of our membership are under 30. No rock music. No concerts. Just good old fashioned Bible study and genuine fellowship.
I know....we do the same....genuine Christianity does not need sweeteners....it is a sweet thing all by itself....joyful
 
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Aunty Jane

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@Aunty Jane
Now everyone can see your falsehoods, what’s done in the dark must be brought to the light.
And there are none so blind as those who will not see....it is a special kind of blindness....ya know....? (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
Who is "everyone" McF...those who believe as you do? You aren't "everyone"....and I guess there are those who see how weak your responses are...what have you addressed? I have given you many opportunities to defend your beliefs and what do I get.....? Mindless posts of nothing relevant.
Seriously....why are you in a debate forum when you cannot support any of your arguments?

Who are you to judge a perfect God, do you think you set the standard for justice? Can you divide the light from the darkness. You calling God cruel says it all, you haven’t surrendered to him, you have no clue what justice is and you don’t know about grace either. Your accusation against God will not go overheard and I pray that you repent from your sinful ways.
It is very apparent that you have no idea who God is yourself if you think torturing living souls forever is part of his personality.....that would be something the devil would relish.

Please read post #90 for an explanation of why Jesus never taught that his Father was a cruel torturer.
There is no "hell" of eternal torment.
It goes against God's perfect justice. “He remembers that we are dust”, which acknowledges that our sinful condition is not due to our own will but due to the sin of Adam. Christ came to rescue us from that enslavement by giving his life for those who fought their sinful tendencies to follow his teachings. The penalty for not doing so was death....just death....why would God need to keep the wicked alive simply to torment them? Only the righteous were promised everlasting life.....the wicked are consigned to everlasting death...that is justice.
Death is the opposite of life...part of the perfect balance of creation.

It is justice to send us all to eternal hellfire, had it not been for his perfect sacrifice. Now people can decide to repent or they can die with the consequences.
Yes, the consequences are to live or to die....in order to suffer, one must be alive and conscious...the wicked are said to be in gehenna...a place where no one is conscious and from which no one returns.

Regarding the top down structure I would remind you that Paul, corrected Peter. Just admit it, you don’t believe that it’s possible with a real church because you have no faith in the Holy Spirit or miracles. You don’t believe that God intervenes through prayer. The church should be led by the Holy Spirit.
I have no idea what you think Paul's correction of a fellow apostle means? Peter was doing the wrong thing and had the humility to accept Paul's correction. Peter was part of the "top" but never did he dictate to the body. Neither did Paul. This is why there was always a body of appointed men....never a single individual calling the shots. Its why we also have a governing body, so that no single individual gets carried away with power. We have no positions of power...only positions of service and responsibility, just as they did in the first century.

The same way Israel should have accepted God as their king instead of a king in flesh, the same way you should accept the Holy Spirit instead of a headquarter somewhere.
You ignore the fact that the first century Christians had their "headquarters" in Jerusalem.....these older men and apostles, as a body, directed the whole of the Christian brotherhood.....so I'm sorry you are rather legless in your assertions that individuals directed any Christian activities. Paul correcting Peter was to correct all who carried on a pretense on that occasion. It was enough to pull them into line.

No wonder you are all wrong when you are taught the same thing.
Now that just makes me smile
biggrin
.....what do you think produces unity? It is the thing that identifies true Christianity....not the mish-mash out there who pretend to know what the Bible teaches but who all disagree with one another.....what if you are all wrong? Ever thought of that? Deception is not recognized as such until you feel the sting....remember Jesus' words at Matthew 7:21-23? Right up until the judgment, the ones performing all the tricks and miracles still had no idea that what they were doing was not what Christ commanded.
They are shocked at his rejection....
omg


If all those who put great store by their doctrines and manifestations of the spirit were really guided by God's spirit.....they would all be united in what they believe.....but is that what we see? Does God dictate different ideas to different people? That is not the way he operates.....sorry.
 

Matthias

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Muslims are allowed here. Are there any Muslims here? If not, why aren’t there?
 

Aunty Jane

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Muslims are allowed here. Are there any Muslims here? If not, why aren’t there?
They have been and gone.....they don't last long when they meet with stiff opposition. I don't think they need others to justify them or their beliefs.
They are usually taught from infancy, and like a lot of Christians, indoctrination doesn't allow for any change of mind.
 

Matthias

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They have been and gone.....they don't last long when they meet with stiff opposition. I don't think they need others to justify them or their beliefs.

Who doesn’t meet with stiff opposition?

Muslims aren’t afraid of encountering strong opposition, nor are they frustrated by it when they do. As one Muslim told me, “It’s a waste of time talking to idolaters. Words won’t convert them.” I didn’t ask him what would. Maybe I should have, but I didn’t think it necessary.

They are usually taught from infancy, and like a lot of Christians, indoctrination doesn't allow for any change of mind.

It’s a hard-headed / hard-hearted world.

“Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it” (Proverbs 22:6).

That’s a general principle, not a guarantee.

It also presumes that a person training up a child, himself or herself, knows the correct way to go to begin with. When they don’t, the child is set on a course which isn’t easily changed. It’s not impossible, but it’s difficult.
 
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McFearless

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And there are none so blind as those who will not see....it is a special kind of blindness....ya know....? (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
Who is "everyone" McF...those who believe as you do? You aren't "everyone"....and I guess there are those who see how weak your responses are...what have you addressed? I have given you many opportunities to defend your beliefs and what do I get.....? Mindless posts of nothing relevant.
Seriously....why are you in a debate forum when you cannot support any of your arguments?


It is very apparent that you have no idea who God is yourself if you torturing living souls forever is part of his personality.....that would be something the devil would relish.

Please read post #90 for an explanation of why Jesus never taught that his Father was a cruel torturer.
There is no "hell" of eternal torment.
It goes against God's perfect justice. “He remembers that we are dust”, which acknowledges that our sinful condition is not due to our own will but due to the sin of Adam. Christ came to rescue us from that enslavement by giving his life for those who fought their sinful tendencies to follow his teachings. The penalty for not doing so was death....just death....why would God need to keep the wicked alive simply to torment them? Only the righteous were promised everlasting life.....the wicked are consigned to everlasting death...that is justice.
Death is the opposite of life...part of the perfect balance of creation.


Yes, the consequences are to live or to die....in order to suffer, one must be alive and conscious...the wicked are said to be in gehenna...a place where no one is conscious and from which no one returns.


I have no idea what you think Paul's correction of a fellow apostle means? Peter was doing the wrong thing and had the humility to accept Paul's correction. Peter was part of the "top" but never did he dictate to the body. Neither did Paul. This is why there was always a body of appointed men....never a single individual calling the shots. Its why we also have a governing body, so that no single individual gets carried away with power. We have no positions of power...only positions of service and responsibility, just as they did in the first century.


You ignore the fact that the first century Christians had their "headquarters" in Jerusalem.....these older men and apostles, as a body, directed the whole of the Christian brotherhood.....so I'm sorry you are rather legless in your assertions that individuals directed any Christian activities. Paul correcting Peter was to correct all who carried on a pretense on that occasion. It was enough to pull them into line.


Now that just makes me smile
biggrin
.....what do you think produces unity? It is the thing that identifies true Christianity....not the mish-mash out there who pretend to know what the Bible teaches but who all disagree with one another.....what if you are all wrong? Ever thought of that? Deception is not recognized as such until you feel the sting....remember Jesus' words at Matthew 7:21-23? Right up until the judgment, the ones performing all the tricks and miracles still had no idea that what they were doing was not what Christ commanded.
They are shocked at his rejection....
omg


If all those who put great store by their doctrines and manifestations of the spirit were really guided by God's spirit.....they would all be united in what they believe.....but is that what we see? Does God dictate different ideas to different people? That is not the way he operates.....sorry.

Aunty Jane haven’t you spewed enough blasphemy for one day? We don’t define justice, If God wants to torture any sinner it would be justice. God is the creator so he created Justice.
The murderer doesn’t get to decide his sentence - or what’s fair. That’s done by the judge, who is in this case the creator of justice. You are not the judge or God’s justice regardless of what he decides to do.

We could turn that argument around agains the JWs - so if your child is dying from an accident and need a blood transfusion, you’ll refuse that transfusion. What kind of parent would reject healing for it’s child - is that love, is that justice? Don’t talk to me about justice, you wouldn’t recognize it if it roasted you for eternity.

Hell is a very real thing - Jesus preached about it and it surely is a torturous place.
You are right, it isn’t specified if it’s like a purgatory, eternal or if one perishes in the fire after some time - but it surely is a place of torture. Perished people doesn’t weep or gash their teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14
King James Version

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

I’m not arguing that there isn’t a hierarchy in the early church, but it isn’t top down the way JW works. Most JW members haven’t even met the people they profess to trust. The 8 men, the head of their church etc.

Should anyone be interested in seeing JWs version of justice I got a little insight to how they treat molested children and their parents.

Inside the secretive world of the Jehovah's Witnesses and those fighting back
 

Aunty Jane

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Aunty Jane haven’t you spewed enough blasphemy for one day? We don’t define justice, If God wants to torture any sinner it would be justice. God is the creator so he created Justice.
"Blasphemy" is it now? I think Jesus knew all about that accusation, didn't he?
rolleyes


Justice does not demand an eternity of suffering for a short lifetime of sin....where is the justice in that? We get our sense of justice from the Creator.....to suggest that God is a sadist is insulting to say the least!
God's justice was set out in his laws to Israel....they were very clear and specific.....maybe you should read them sometime...?

The murderer doesn’t get to decide his sentence - or what’s fair. That’s done by the judge, who is in this case the creator of justice. You are not the judge or God’s justice regardless of what he decides to do.
Here is a classic reason why you need to read the laws given to Israel....? What was the sentence for a murderer under God's stated law? It was death...not torture.....and there were no jails, meaning no incarceration. So "hell" fails on both counts.
You really show that you are out of your depth here McF. Perhaps educate yourself a little before you enter the arena.....?

We could turn that argument around agains the JWs - so if your child is dying from an accident and need a blood transfusion, you’ll refuse that transfusion. What kind of parent would reject healing for it’s child - is that love, is that justice? Don’t talk to me about justice, you wouldn’t recognize it if it roasted you for eternity.
Your ignorance knows no bounds.....have you done any research on blood transfusions at all?
Here is a link to a video that was put up on the Australian Government's website regarding the dangers of blood transfusions....real dangers, previously unknown in medical circles.....now known as having the highest morbidity and mortality rate of any medical procedure.
I invite you to watch it...you might learn something important.....and why there are whole hospitals that are now dedicated to non-blood management of their patients. They obtain better outcomes, with less hospitalization.

https://www.blood.gov.au/media#:~:text=Media Enquiries&text=Email: [email protected],Call: 02 6151 5000

As they say...."A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".....
no


Hell is a very real thing - Jesus preached about it and it surely is a torturous place.
You are right, it isn’t specified if it’s like a purgatory, eternal or if one perishes in the fire after some time - but it surely is a place of torture. Perished people doesn’t weep or gash their teeth.
No, you have to be alive to suffer any kind of torture......the 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' takes place just before God snuffs out their life.
omg


There is no such place as a fiery "hell"...it was invented to scare the pants off ignorant people in centuries past who had no idea what the Bible said because they weren't allowed to read it. It comes from pagan Greek ideas along with the immortality of the soul.....it was never a Jewish belief....and since Jesus was Jewish, he would never have taught such a thing. "Gehenna" is not "hell".

It is very apparent that 'attack' has become your best kind of 'defense'.....but it just shows that you have nothing but gossip to spread, which demeans you even further. Do you really judge people on one twisted side of a story? Have you heard the other side of any of those sad tales of woe that are a dime a dozen on the Internet? Hate sites are a pretty pathetic source of truth....and only pathetic people consult them....looking to feed their own prejudices.
Just as well we have a legal system that has to listen to both sides before making a judgment.....'as you judge, so will you be judged'....we mustn't forget that.
max


True colors...that is what these sites bring out in people.....very necessary for judging the "sheep from the goats" I think.....and we all know who the judge is.
 

McFearless

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@Aunty Jane,


I think JW’s should refrain from speaking about science. The link you sent me said that blood transfusions saves lives - maybe you are just a little uneducated on the subject or in general. The fact that blood transfusion is overused or even used when it isn’t necessary has nothing to do with its life saving abilities.
- sending a link that agrees with me, but underlines that blood transfusion is overused, only proves my point.
JWs don’t love their children, they won’t give them blood transfusion when that transfusion will save the life of the child and should the child grow up to disagree with their faith - the parents will shun them. Don’t talk to anyone about justice or love before you end those practices. Not to mention the child abuse cases..

There is no other treatment for victims of a traffic accident, who has lost too much blood. We can give salt water maybe even improve the odds with EPO in some cases - but quit acting as if you have science backing up, your unloving rejection of blood transfusion for your children.

You are right that Jesus was wrongly accused of blasphemy, but you are not Jesus, Jesus is God. Sure Satan will be strolling around saying that even Jesus was accused of blasphemy, acting all innocent. If Satan can use the argument, you can - but it really doesn’t make the argument valid or true.

One isn’t judging someone if one isn’t imposing a punishment. We can evaluate if an action is wrong, without imposing a punishment on the transgressor. Warning you about your blasphemous comments and calling you to repent from your loveless practices should be taken as a gesture of love - but I realize you can not comprehend what I’m telling you - so this isn’t fruitful.

I never said that I know what hell is exactly (except for a place where there is weeping and grinding of teeth) but I can say that I will never say that God isn’t a God of justice - no matter what is in his plans (eternal torture or not). I’m the transgressor and I’ve been saved by grace, who am I to comment on God’s justice or what’s fair in regards to punishment? Nobody but God knows exactly what justice is, we got the very concept from him. Now you are saying that if God is practicing eternal hellfire for sinners, he is unjust?
I’ve heard atheists use that exact same argument regarding starving children in Africa “if God is a loving god, then why? - that isn’t justice” - to think one can argue the fairness of God’s actions or inactions is simply idiotic. For us to do that, we would have to think that the creation outranks the creator.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Everyone should be allowed on these "christian" forums, as opportunities to share the True Gospel with them.

Every religion in this world is false, and from the devil, and cannot stand against the Truth of the Holy Bible, as the Unique Word of Almighty God.

It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as in the Bible, that alone is the Power of God to salvation, for any sinner

Even the muslim book says things about Jesus Christ, that is not said of their own "prophet", like the Virgin Birth, Jesus working miracles, Jesus being born sinless, and His Second Coming, etc.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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It is very apparent that you have no idea who God is yourself

pot calling kettle comes to mind!

You have a completely unbiblical and heretical view on the God of the Bible, as you reject the Bible's clear Teachings on Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, as being GOD, and completely coequal with the Father in the Godhead