Is your Faith in the Bible or is it in God?

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Aunty Jane

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I'm saying that bronze age peoples had a different sense of rationality. For example, bronze age peoples may attribute a storm to the anger of a god or gods whereas modern peoples attribute a storm to neutral weather patterns. Bronze age peoples may attribute a sickness to a curse from a demon or other evil spirit whereas modern peoples attribute sickness to bacteria or viruses. This means that two people, bronze age and modern, can see the same thing but interpret it in opposite ways. As regards the Bible, if a modern person could go back in time, so to speak, and witness the events described would we continue to see them the same way they are written in scripture or would our modern understanding give us a different point of view? Obviously I don't have the answer but I think it's worth pondering the question.
I think you are correct....we live in a vastly different age and our view of God has changed a lot over the ages. Israel for example was warned not to embrace any facet of the false worship practiced by the nations around them, but sadly they did not obey him and they felt his anger expressed in various ways....which was designed to bring them back in line, but it never lasted. Israel was the only nation on earth that God claimed as his own and he gave them instructions on how to keep to the laws he gave them...always for their good. The Bible is a record of what happens when humans obey God and receive his blessings...as opposed to what happens when they disobey him and receive his punishments. Both teach us valuable things......BUT, God does not operate that way any more....we have a history recorded for our edification and education, which will benefit us if we can see why we have a Bible in the first place.

Hebrews 1:1-4 brings out some good points to remember....
" Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs." (ESV)

In the Bible we have a record of what those prophets of old spoke to God's nation, but Paul spoke of a different 'prophet' who was to teach his disciples what they needed to know about his Father's plan of salvation in way more detail.

"The last days" mentioned here had a two fold meaning....it was "the last days" of the Jewish system and the old covenant, but a new beginning with true worship restored and a new covenant instituted....this changed the way Jewish Christians worshipped the Father, because the old way had been corrupted by wicked men in leadership positions. (Matthew 23:29-33)

Gentiles too were converted to Christianity by the preaching of Jesus' disciples.
New scripture began to be written, which was a detailed account of the teachings of Jesus Christ that were to echo down through the ages, instructing us until another period of time became evident...also referred to as "the last days" of the present world system. We are watching now as the world implodes in on itself due to mismanagement and corruption and greed at the highest levels.

Without the Bible we would have no understanding of God, no teachings of Jesus Christ, and we would be lost as to the meaning of the events unfolding in fulfillment of Bible prophesy, as we speak....the time when Christ was to return. (Matthew 24:37-39)

If it only depended on God speaking to people directly, who would we believe as they all have their own ideas on everything. The fact that there is so much disagreement is proof positive to me, that God hasn't spoken to any of them, because God teaches one truth, to one body.....he is not a God of confusion, but a God of peace. If the beliefs we hold do not bring about peaceful unity, then they are not from God.

If there is no set standard as to worship and morals, (clearly set out in the scriptures) who would ever get it right?
dunno
 

LearningToLetGo

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The fact that there is so much disagreement is proof positive to me, that God hasn't spoken to any of them, because God teaches one truth, to one body....

Keep in mind that God spoke through his prophets and still most people did not believe them. Indeed, God speaks through holy scripture and many still don't believe. This tells me that lack of uniform agreement is not an indicator of falseness. It just means business as usual.
 

Aunty Jane

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Keep in mind that God spoke through his prophets and still most people did not believe them. Indeed, God speaks through holy scripture and many still don't believe. This tells me that lack of uniform agreement is not an indicator of falseness. It just means business as usual.
I think the point I was making is that God had a specific people who alone possessed his laws and were under obligation to keep them....it didn't mean that they did, because we see from the scriptures that Israel provided more of a demonstration about what NOT to do than just about anyone.
doh
The Christians had to separate from them because the religious leaders were incorrigible. (Matthew 23:15; 37-39)

If God spoke only by communicating with individuals, it stands to reason that his spirit would direct them all only one way....that would be proof to me.....unity.....otherwise there is just confusion.....as we see in Christendom. Disagreement predominates, rather than agreement. Who speaks the truth? They all think they do.

God doesn't speak with a forked tongue.....its the serpent who does that....
unsure
 

Philologos

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Phil,

What is involved in exegesis of the biblical text? Interpretation of the text by human beings! The Holy Spirit doesn't interpret as an invisible supernatural being, without involvement by human beings.

Oz

Correct. I am one such human being.
 

Philologos

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I think the point I was making is that God had a specific people who alone possessed his laws and were under obligation to keep them....it didn't mean that they did, because we see from the scriptures that Israel provided more of a demonstration about what NOT to do than just about anyone.
doh
The Christians had to separate from them because the religious leaders were incorrigible. (Matthew 23:15; 37-39)

If God spoke only by communicating with individuals, it stands to reason that his spirit would direct them all only one way....that would be proof to me.....unity.....otherwise there is just confusion.....as we see in Christendom. Disagreement predominates, rather than agreement. Who speaks the truth? They all think they do.

God doesn't speak with a forked tongue.....its the serpent who does that....
unsure

This isn't on God. He never instructed us to divide into doctrinal groups. Now everyone wants to be like CT Russel and start their own religion.

Our Father is always directing us, always speaking to us, but we've essentially been taught that God doesn't speak anymore and that He is unapproachable, so we don't listen and we struggle to understand Him. We live in a fallen world. We design doctrinal statements that become our platform of identity.

God doesn't see or care so much about doctrine as we so, He wants us to love Him and love each other. In THAT, we are in agreement.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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It's actually not a silly question. The scriptures themselves say,

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me. (John 5:39)

The other side of that coin is this: You say you hear from God. I've known quite a few people who claimed the same thing. It's the old "false prophet" question. How do WE know that what YOU are hearing is God?

You have taken this scripture John 5:39 out of context I believe. What are you trying to say? That if we search the scriptures we couldn't come to know the True God YHWH enough to love him because of the knowledge we gained from his word in the Bible we wouldn't be able to exercise faith in him?
 

Aunty Jane

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This isn't on God. He never instructed us to divide into doctrinal groups. Now everyone wants to be like CT Russel and start their own religion.
Let me just correct you there......C.T. Russell did not “start” our religion.....being a gifted public speaker and with very good Bible knowledge, he was a spokesman for a group who met together regularly to examine the accepted doctrines and compare them with the scriptures, to see if they were true and if they were not from the Bible to find out where the teaching originated.
These men were from different denominations of Christendom and had only one goal...to discover the truth no matter how painful that might prove to be.

In careful examination of the scriptures, as a group in unanimous agreement, they arrived at that truth and promoted it. That led to the formation of the International Bible Students Association, which attracted like-minded souls who were also fed up with corruption in the church and wanted “the truth...the whole truth...and nothing but the truth”. In fulfillment of Bible prophesy, from small beginnings, a mighty nation would grow. Just like ancient Israel, spiritual Israel (“the Israel of God”) would also spring from small beginnings. (Galatians 6:16)
Jesus warned however, that “weeds” would be sown in Christianity and that both the “wheat and the weeds” would “grow together until the harvest time". There have always been true and false Christians in the world, but the genuine Christians have always been in the unpopular, even hated minority. (John 15:18-21)

Our Father is always directing us, always speaking to us, but we've essentially been taught that God doesn't speak anymore and that He is unapproachable, so we don't listen and we struggle to understand Him. We live in a fallen world. We design doctrinal statements that become our platform of identity.
That does not alter the fact that in these “last days” Jesus was to appoint a “faithful and wise slave” who was to “feed” his fellow slaves their “food at the proper time”. (Matthew 24:45)
According to the apostle Paul, there are only two tables at which to feed....
“...I am saying that these sacrifices are offered to demons, not to God. And I don’t want you to participate with demons. You cannot drink from the cup of the Lord and from the cup of demons, too. You cannot eat at the Lord’s Table and at the table of demons, too.” (1 Corinthians 10:20-21 - NLT)

If we are not feeding at the table of the Lord, then we are feeding at the table laden with poisonous demonic lies. Can we tell the difference? The Bible indicates that the master deceiver would fool the majority into feeding at the wrong table.
We see that at the time of the judgment, Jesus rejects those who thought they had it all right....when they offer him their excuses, he tells them that he “NEVER” knew them.....how did they not know? (Matthew 7:21-23) “NEVER” means “not ever”.

How many did Jesus say were on the cramped road to life? Not the “many” but the “few”. (Matthew 7:13-14)
Jesus knows those who belong to him, and who are teaching the truth....his Father will invite those ones into his family of worshippers. No one can come to the Son unless the Father invites them. (John 6:65) We will all know soon enough who they are.

God doesn't see or care so much about doctrine as we so, He wants us to love Him and love each other. In THAT, we are in agreement.
He wants us to love the truth....that goes along with loving God and his Christ. Teaching false doctrines is what God hates, as Jesus demonstrated when he said to the Pharisees.....
You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: 8 “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; 9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” (Matthew 15:7-9 - ESV)

So God does care about what we believe and teach....
With regard to love, Jesus said....
“If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:46-48 - NLT)

Nothing is “perfect” if it isn’t true......what you accept as truth...matters.
 

Lambano

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You have taken this scripture John 5:39 out of context I believe. What are you trying to say?
I'll just quote from Him whose words are written in The Book:

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.’ 17 You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold? 18 And you say, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the offering that is on it is obligated.’ 19 You blind men, which is more important, the offering or the altar that sanctifies the offering? 20 Therefore, the one who swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. 21 And the one who swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells in it. 22 And the one who swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it. (Matthew 23:16-22)

Ultimately, in what do you trust?

And to point out the pink elephant in the room, ask yourself the hypothetical question that few around here dare to ask: If you saw very real contradictions in the Bible and realized it might be that not all of it could be true, would you still follow Jesus?

Ultimately, whom do you trust?
 
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Behold

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And to point out the pink elephant in the room, ask yourself the hypothetical question that few around here dare to ask: If you saw very real contradictions in the Bible and realized it might be that not all of it could be true, would you still follow Jesus?

With over 250 "new" bibles, and at least 80% of them are junk........you would do well to learn more about this, and then from that enlightened point of view, you could post in the future with some real benefit to others.
 

Lambano

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...and then from that enlightened point of view, you could post in the future with some real benefit to others.

5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? (2 Corinthians 13:5)
 

Behold

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5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves!

Paul's "faith test" is not to determine if you are still saved, as you can't lose your salvation.

That "faith test".....read it closely..........see if you are in >THE< FAITH.
See that?
That is also Jude explaining..>"contend for THE REAL FAITH".

The idea is, to made sure you have not "fallen from Grace' and lost your REAL FAITH in Christ, and are not trying to save yourself, or keep yourself saved.
See that?
When a person loses real faith or THE FAITH.....then they have believed they can Lose their Salvation.
Now they have become a legalist and will try by self effort to go to heaven.
As this is the broken faith of a person who no longer trusts in Christ TO KEEP THEM Saved.
 

Jim B

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With over 250 "new" bibles, and at least 80% of them are junk........you would do well to learn more about this, and then from that enlightened point of view, you could post in the future with some real benefit to others.

Obviously you don't qualify as a serious Bible critic. YOU would do well to learn more about this subject, and then from that enlightened point of view, you could post in the future with some real benefit to others
 

Behold

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Obviously you don't qualify as a serious Bible critic. YOU would do well to learn more about this subject, and then from that enlightened point of view, you could post in the future with some real benefit to others


You only stated your opinion, and would try to pretend its a fact because its your opinion.
Jim B, try not to let your opinion always be your guide and your God.
Hear me?

And regarding "bibles".....I teach on the subject.
I taught a bit about greek texts and manuscript evidence today.
If you have a legit question, and not just another lame opinion, i can probably answer it with authority, for you.
If i dont know the answer, i wont try to fake it.
Im not you.
 

Jim B

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You only stated your opinion, and would try to pretend its a fact because its your opinion.
Jim B, try not to let your opinion always be your guide and your God.
Hear me?

And regarding "bibles".....I teach on the subject.
I taught a bit about greek texts and manuscript evidence today.
If you have a legit question, and not just another lame opinion, i can probably answer it with authority, for you.
If i dont know the answer, i wont try to fake it.
Im not you.

If you have a legitimate question, and not just another lame opinion, I will consider discussing it.
If I don't know the answer, I won't try to fake it.
Thankfully, I'm not you.

I have been around academics long enough to know that they are the most self-deluded, opinionated group I have ever encountered. Try to not let your opinion always be your guide and your God.

It's "Greek", not "greek".
"with authority, for you" has a superfluous comma.
"If i dont know the answer, i wont try to fake it." should be "If I don't know the answer, I wont try to fake it."
"Im not you" should be "I'm not you".

Grade: C-


If you're such a scholar, how come your writing is so sloppy?
 

Behold

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If you're such a scholar, how come your writing is so sloppy?

So you are now my "spell check"?
That is hilarious.
Thank you for the laugh....
Im up since 1am this morning, and i needed that smile.

so....Do, you want me to spend a few mins looking at your last and next 20 posts to find grammar and syntax errors and then come and say you are stupid and can't write?
Really?
So let us get past your nonsense, is your best bet.

and...Thank you for making the claim that im a scholar. However, most scholars see themselves as an authority above the Bible, and i could never sit in authority above the word of God that gives me light and wisdom.
My Claim is that im an Evangelist, and a Teacher of the NT, specifically.

And as i said, if you have a question, and i see your post, i will try to give you a solid biblical response.
 

Jim B

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So you are now my "spell check"?
That is hilarious.
Thank you for the laugh....
Im up since 1am this morning, and i needed that smile.

so....Do, you want me to spend a few mins looking at your last and next 20 posts to find grammar and syntax errors and then come and say you are stupid and can't write?
Really?
So let us get past your nonsense, is your best bet.

and...Thank you for making the claim that im a scholar. However, most scholars see themselves as an authority above the Bible, and i could never sit in authority above the word of God that gives me light and wisdom.
My Claim is that im an Evangelist, and a Teacher of the NT, specifically.

And as i said, if you have a question, and i see your post, i will try to give you a solid biblical response.

It would be nice if you gave me a solid biblical response instead of saying some thing as absurd as "With over 250 "new" bibles, and at least 80% of them are junk". Since you admit that you're not a scholar, making a comment like this is absurd.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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I'll just quote from Him whose words are written in The Book:

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.’ 17 You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold? 18 And you say, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the offering that is on it is obligated.’ 19 You blind men, which is more important, the offering or the altar that sanctifies the offering? 20 Therefore, the one who swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. 21 And the one who swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells in it. 22 And the one who swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it. (Matthew 23:16-22)

Ultimately, in what do you trust?

And to point out the pink elephant in the room, ask yourself the hypothetical question that few around here dare to ask: If you saw very real contradictions in the Bible and realized it might be that not all of it could be true, would you still follow Jesus?

Ultimately, whom do you trust?

You can learn to love and exercise faith in God by reading and studying the scriptures. The scriptures are Gods word. If you have faith in God it's because you have learned from reading and studying the scriptures he's a loving, trusting person that you can always depend on. In John 5:39 and in Matthew 23:16-22 Jesus was talking to Pharisees who were a people who cared more about the oral law which wasn't God's inspired word. So when Jesus was speaking to these Pharisees in John 5:39 and Matthew 23:16-22 he was talking to people who didn't truly care about the written word of God but in their oral law. These Pharisees cared more about traditions of men instead of the written word that God had inspired to be written and what God's word actually said.
Myself, I don't see contradictions in the scriptures. Also in my opinion those who say to people ask themselves a hypothetical question, if they saw real contradictions in the Bible and realized it might be that not all of it could be true, would you still follow Jesus?
I think these people, are people who are trying to get people to question God's written word, so people wouldn't put faith in God. Why would anyone, who say they love God and have faith in him want anyone, even hypothetically, to question Gods word?
 
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True Faith

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Hey everyone... it seems I am finally back....lol... loads of fun..... and it is apparent that I have ruffled a few feathers, even admins with the truth....

I for one will never stand by while the Lies against God persist...

Let the games begin again.... who is so weak in their faith that when their pride is hurt they run to the admins???
 
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