The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

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mailmandan

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The phrase “self-righteousness” is an unbiblical term. Heretics usually create these unbiblical terms, like “Trinity” and “God-man” as well.
Are you calling me and all other believers who use the phrases - "self righteousness," "Trinity" and "God-man" a heretic? That judgment call of believers is well above your pay grade. Self righteousness is taught in the Bible. In the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector, we read - And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt. (Luke 18:9)

Also in Romans 10:1-4, we read - Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

This equates to "self righteousness." The Pharisees were the epitome of self righteousness. You don't need the specific term "self righteousness" spelled out here in order to figure that out.

In regards to the term, "Trinity" this describes one God in essence/nature who exist in 3 distinct persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, which is Biblical.

What does the Bible teach about the Trinity? | GotQuestions.org

The term "God-man" describes the incarnation of Jesus who is God. (John 1:1, 14) In Colossians 2:9 (AMP), we read - 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity (the Godhead) dwells in bodily form [completely expressing the divine essence of God]. So you exalt yourself as sinless, 100% of the time, like Jesus, yet you downgrade Jesus to "less than God." Unbelievable! :eek:

You create heretics out of thin air.
I don't have to create them and it's not hard to find them.

This scripture seems to be presenting “self-righteousness” in good way:
That scripture below is not talking about self righteousness, which is never a good thing. You should know better.

“Now He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for eating, may He supply and multiply your seed, and increase the fruits of your righteousness” (2 Corinthians 9:10)
In context, the word "righteousness" here is referring to acts of charity. The fruits or harvest of your righteousness (acts of charity) is a reference to all of the blessings that will come about from our charity.

We find Jesus using the word righteousness in the same context in Matthew 6:1-2: (ESV)

Be careful not to practice your righteousness (other translations say - "your good deeds/charitable deeds") in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

In context in 2 Corinthians 9:10, we see in verses 6 through 8 Paul that uses the metaphor of the sower to encourage generous giving. "Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously". The metaphor of reaping ties to the later idea of "fruits of righteousness" or "harvest of righteousness." One must sow in order to have fruit/a harvest.

Verse 9 quotes a phrase from Psalm 112:9 describing gifts scattered (like a sower scatters) to the poor as righteousness that endures forever. When Christians participate with God, their right actions, or righteousness, endures forever just as God's plan is eternal. In verse 10 the idea of sowing is continued with the truth that God gives the seed to the sower and God will enlarge the fruits or harvest of righteousness that results from sowing. Paul goes on to describe the chain reaction of events, which are the fruits or harvest of righteousness that result when Christians give generously as described in verses 12-15.
 

Michiah-Imla

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Are you calling me and all other believers who use the phrases - "self righteousness," "Trinity" and "God-man" a heretic? That judgment call of believers is well above your pay grade

What “pay grade”? Anyone familiar in the word of God is qualified to identify heretics. An heretic teaches contrary to scripture. The foundational defense of Once Saved Always Saved starts with twisting and adding words to scripture. I have thoroughly pointed this out numerous times to at least 3 of you already using the red mirage examples!

“A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.” (Titus 3:10-11)

And you guys sin! And you subvert the Bible to fit OSAS!

The shoe sure does seem to fit!

That scripture below is not talking about self righteousness, which is never a good thing. You should know better.

You see! That’s the epitome of your defense: that doesn’t mean what it says, whah whah…

In context

That’s your other favorite defense, the “context” card.
 

Wynona

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Don’t take this paucity Of Verses as a sign of weakness...
Thats exactly how I take it.

It's clear that you haven't forgiven me for not heeding your teaching and not believing in OSAS. Otherwise you wouldn't say I was a waste of time.


There may never come a time when words like yours don't hurt my feelings and make me want to disengage with these forums.

But I do hope and pray that you can forgive me and one day understand where Im coming from when it comes to doctrine.

We don't agree. But I have no desire to make you an enemy.
 

Michiah-Imla

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And He Told this parable to those that Trusted in themselves ( Paul later said that this was Damnable )

I don’t trust in myself. I trust God through Christ by the Holy Spirit.

and thought that they were “ righteous”

I know I’m righteous because God made me that way when I first believed:

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” (Romans 5:19)

and viewed others with contempt ....

I view false doctrines with contempt, not the people who believe them.

But heretics are often very rude and need a dose of their own medicine.
 
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mailmandan

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What “pay grade”? Anyone familiar in the word of God is qualified to identify heretics. An heretic teaches contrary to scripture. The foundational defense of Once Saved Always Saved starts with twisting and adding words to scripture. I have thoroughly pointed this out numerous times to at least 3 of you already using the red mirage examples!

“A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.” (Titus 3:10-11)

And you guys sin! And you subvert the Bible to fit OSAS!

The shoe sure does seem to fit!

You see! That’s the epitome of your defense: that doesn’t mean what it says, whah whah…

That’s your other favorite defense, the “context” card.
Good grief. :rolleyes: Debating with you is a complete waste of time.
 
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WalkInLight

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Good grief. :rolleyes: Debating with you is a complete waste of time.

Is a debate only valid if one agrees first the terms over which the debate is done?
A pharisees problem was not doing things for show, that was merely the failure to be approved of by God, in terms of reward. The show is reward enough. No do charitable work in secret, and the Lord will reward it.

The pharisees problem was they did not love God, taught to follow the law while breaking it themselves ie hypocrisy.
Jesus taught true righteousness comes from the heart in loving your enemies, in loving your fellow brother and sisters in Christ, is obeying His commands, which is learning to love instead of hating, not point scoring, not putting down, not belittling etc.

If a believer meets Jesus, believes Him, repents, follows and grows in grace and truth through their life, and they enter heaven, they were in a sense once saved always saved. If another believer starts on the same walk, experiences the same revelation but leaves the path to follow the world, becomes a dried up branch and perish in the fire, they are saved but lost.

The dilemma is a summary statement does not cover these different experiences. Paul described sowing to the Spirit to reap eternal life or sowing to the flesh to reap death, ie the second death. He wrote this to believers, telling them there is always a choice along the way, which is how love works.

It seems fair to suggest the yeast of you are born into Gods Kingdom no matter how you walk is the same as the Pharisees saying they are descendants of the prophets so guaranteed a place with God. Sadly every morning we rise and get ready for the day not fully understanding what motivates us and makes us go forward in particular ways. In Christ we can learn to see ourselves and put in place joy and Praise to Him, so we grow in grace in truth in the Kingdom more and more each day. We do not earn it, but we do honour the life He gives and fill up our hearts with His grace and love to face each challenging day.

God bless you
 

WalkInLight

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Thats exactly how I take it.

It's clear that you haven't forgiven me for not heeding your teaching and not believing in OSAS. Otherwise you wouldn't say I was a waste of time.


There may never come a time when words like yours don't hurt my feelings and make me want to disengage with these forums.

But I do hope and pray that you can forgive me and one day understand where Im coming from when it comes to doctrine.

We don't agree. But I have no desire to make you an enemy.

Amen sister. The more the Lord changes me the more I see it is our belief and stubbornness that convinces us we cannot change or be different.
We need each day something to bring us joy, a lighter step, that makes sense of things that helps us connect. Jesus does this and sharing His good news to others.

I used to wonder why in nursery young children make friends with some and not others. They are very young people driven by their emotional reactions learning who they are and how they react to the world. So much is preprogrammed and driven by good and bad outcomes and when we become adults so much appears hard wired. I truly felt I could only relate to small disconnected families and quiet people because that was my family. But I am loud, open and jovial at heart, and love interaction, to a degree, especially over certain issues.

Once I realised my emotional assumptions were wrong and I could take hold of a situation, Praise the Lord and move forward, the boundaries I had set melted away. So many today live such protected lives, they do not know their limits or choices and lived very spoilt lives, and are terribly abrasive, especially in these forums.

But I have learnt unless people allow Jesus in to challenge who and what we are, we are set in stone, destined for the lake of fire.
I met one leader of a church on forums who openly ripped people apart, something they had learnt from being a child and thought this was nothing to do with the world and sin, but a spiritual ministry.

To me it is clear, too many think they know Jesus and who He is, and have never repented or seen fundamentally we are just servants to the Lord of love, and have no rights to push others around or promise anything more than He has given us.

God bless you
 
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farouk

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“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).



Hi @Rudometkin Good verse there to remember; it's often forgotten, right?

Good to see you again; haven't seen you in a while. (How is your dw?)
 

BloodBought 1953

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But heretics are often very rude and need a dose of their own medicine.



I agree—- Grace-rejectors that preach False and Perverted Gospels and are “ Fallen From Grace” and that are “ Severed from Christ” and don’t even realize it ——That is, those that think that Believing that Paul’s Gospel Of 1Cor 15:2-4 and Christ’s death and Resurrection might be “ Essential” for Salvation, it just ain’t “ Adequate” on it’s “ own” for Salvation....They think that Jesus needs a “ Co-Savior”, and by golly that “ Co- Savior” Is gonna be them!

Yep, those guys that “ ADD” to the Gospel Of Pure Grace—- Those That want to “share” in the Glory that belongs exclusively to Jesus can Sure be Judgmental at times!

It’s just like Paul said ( comparing Hagar the Slave with Sarah , the spiritual mother of the Free) ...those under Bondage will ALWAYS be attacking those that have been set free and understand that Grace and Faith is the way to please God...NOT their “ performance” .....NOT their “ OWN” RIGHTEOUSNESS....

The Legalists are the True “ Heretics” , and they really get their panties in a knot when faced with Biblical Correction and Rebuke....It offends the Pride Of Those That are counting on their Works to Save them when they are told that all Of their” Works” are just “ DEAD WORKS” that God views as Filthy, used menstrual Rags ....

When it comes to Salvation , Anything you do to GET Saved or anything you to do to STAY saved is a Dead Work......Salvation is a Gift! “ GIVEN” to those that do not work for it....If one preaches these truths , they will be met with “ rudeness” by the self- Righteous Religionists....The True Heretics have things backwards....they are simply Blind Guides.

If you view those are trying to help you as “ rude”, well, it’s not surprising, but it’s still kinda sad...
 

BloodBought 1953

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Thats exactly how I take it.

It's clear that you haven't forgiven me for not heeding your teaching and not believing in OSAS. Otherwise you wouldn't say I was a waste of time.


There may never come a time when words like yours don't hurt my feelings and make me want to disengage with these forums.

But I do hope and pray that you can forgive me and one day understand where Im coming from when it comes to doctrine.

We don't agree. But I have no desire to make you an enemy.





I don’t “HAVE” to Forgive you, dear woman .....I don’t condemn you in the First Place!

It's just a fact that to repeat all of the verses that I gave you in the past would be of no avail....

From my point of view, I just sincerely believe that you are blind to the teachings of Galatians....that would make you no different than the Entirety Of Those that hold To Catholic Doctrine and 90% of the Protestant World....they ALL have a way of saying that Jesus is essential to Salvation but just not ADEQUATE for that said Salvation....

It’s all just a different variation of “ Jesus Saves— * BUT!* —- And Where that “ but” ends, Legalism begins...

According to Galatians , you are attempting to teach a False Gospel That ADDS to Paul’s Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing for Salvation.....You are “ Fallen From Grace” and cant see it.....does that mean you are damned? It just depends on who you listen to....The Jury seems to be out on that one...

Even if those that you teach are NOT damned, the best Christian Walk your listeners will ever walk will be a beggarly one , full of Confusion and no sense of Assurance—- a guarantee of NO True Love for God and therefore they will never experience the Joy That should be the hallmark of our Faith.....

If you fail to see the Truth Of OSAS , you are quite simply calling Jesus a Liar....refute THIS verse of Scripture , if you can....It would make you the First.....

“ All of those that BELIEVE in me ** ALREADY HAVE** Eternal Life and shall ** NEVER** come under Condemnation”

I will be waiting for your rebuttal to this “ Atomic Bomb” for all of the Non- OSAS people out there...

You are Not my “ enemy” .....My True enemy is the one that has blinded you to the Truth .....I do not hate you.....I just feel sorry for you....I was once just like you...unlike you , I have LIVED both sides....I KNOW which side is the Truth....I pray that you become blessed as I was....I wish you the best—- JUST DON’T PREACH! The World does not need another “ Jimmy Swaggert” who most assuredly believes in Grace—- “ PAST” Grace—— which is no “ Grace” at all.....

If you ever come to actually BELIEVE the song that you have mindlessly Sung all of these years——- THEN you will be ready to preach......that song, of course is “ Nothing But The Blood”.... God Bless...
 

Rudometkin

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“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Hi @Rudometkin Good verse there to remember; it's often forgotten, right?

Good to see you again; haven't seen you in a while. (How is your dw?)

Yes, she is great, thanks. How is yours?
 

WalkInLight

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But heretics are often very rude and need a dose of their own medicine.



I agree—- Grace-rejectors that preach False and Perverted Gospels and are “ Fallen From Grace” and that are “ Severed from Christ” and don’t even realize it ——That is, those that think that Believing that Paul’s Gospel Of 1Cor 15:2-4 and Christ’s death and Resurrection might be “ Essential” for Salvation, it just ain’t “ Adequate” on it’s “ own” for Salvation....They think that Jesus needs a “ Co-Savior”, and by golly that “ Co- Savior” Is gonna be them!

Yep, those guys that “ ADD” to the Gospel Of Pure Grace—- Those That want to “share” in the Glory that belongs exclusively to Jesus can Sure be Judgmental at times!

It’s just like Paul said ( comparing Hagar the Slave with Sarah , the spiritual mother of the Free) ...those under Bondage will ALWAYS be attacking those that have been set free and understand that Grace and Faith is the way to please God...NOT their “ performance” .....NOT their “ OWN” RIGHTEOUSNESS....

The Legalists are the True “ Heretics” , and they really get their panties in a knot when faced with Biblical Correction and Rebuke....It offends the Pride Of Those That are counting on their Works to Save them when they are told that all Of their” Works” are just “ DEAD WORKS” that God views as Filthy, used menstrual Rags ....

When it comes to Salvation , Anything you do to GET Saved or anything you to do to STAY saved is a Dead Work......Salvation is a Gift! “ GIVEN” to those that do not work for it....If one preaches these truths , they will be met with “ rudeness” by the self- Righteous Religionists....The True Heretics have things backwards....they are simply Blind Guides.

If you view those are trying to help you as “ rude”, well, it’s not surprising, but it’s still kinda sad...

We are saved by grace alone. Amen. And because we are saved by Christs love we need it flowing through our lives or we are lost.
In a world contaminated by hurt, pain, bitterness, confusion, revenge, loneliness, we can only know the Kingdom by walking in it.

One can build a model that correctly says Jesus alone can save us, and then denies because we are saved we are changed and need to sow to the Spirit and not to the flesh. The whole temple put across the idea the Father is other, and we must be purified not once but continually, that just living and doing normal things, causes us to become unclean. It is not a problem, but we need to apply repentance, purification, washing, continual prayer and praise as part of our walk.

It is this dilemma the apostles addressed in their letters. We do not arrive, we walk the narrow path because we have Christ.
Being emotionally open and loving is not just belief, it is faith in action, it is taking risks, it is allowing oneself to be hurt and forgiving.
I have met many believers who have never loved, but they acknowledge Jesus loves them one to one, but it goes no further, like its
a private salvation party, and nothing changes on the outside, its their lucky charm that will see them through.

2nd and 3rd generation believers can easily fall for this as they grow up in christian families and know church from an early age, but
probably never meet themselves, but learn to behave as if they know and have the truth within. In a very real sense their faith is
one of externals and doctrine, and as they grow up with the ideas, they project them on to themselves as if they have the Lord.

If you cannot love another, you have not begun to see how Jesus love you and how like all sinners you truly are.
The Lord just asks to let Him in, and to begin to lay your burden down, and accept being like a child before Him.

God bless you
 
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farouk

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We are save by grace alone. Amen. And because we are saved by Christs love we need it flowing through our lives or we are lost.
In a world contaminated by hurt, pain, bitterness, confusion, revenge, loneliness, we can only know the Kingdom by walking in it.

One can build a model that correctly says Jesus alone can save us, and then denies because we are saved we are changed and need to sow to the Spirit and not to the flesh. The whole temple put across the idea the Father is other, and we must be purified not once but continually, that just living and doing normal things, causes us to become unclean. It is not a problem, but we need to apply repentance, purification, washing, continual prayer and praise as part of our walk.

It is this dilemma the apostles addressed in their letters. We do not arrive, we walk the narrow path because we have Christ.
Being emotionally open and loving is not just belief, it is faith in action, it is taking risks, it is allowing oneself to be hurt and forgiving.
I have met many believers who have never loved, but they acknowledge Jesus loves them one to one, but it goes no further, like its
a private salvation party, and nothing changes on the outside, its their lucky charm that will see them through.

2nd and 3rd generation believers can easily fall for this as they grow up in christian families and know church from an early age, but
probably never meet themselves, but learn to behave as if they know and have the truth within. In a very real sense their faith is
one of externals and doctrine, and as they grow up with the ideas, they project them on to themselves as if they have the Lord.

If you cannot love another, you have not begun to see how Jesus love you and how like all sinners you truly are.
The Lord just asks to let Him in, and to begin to lay your burden down, and accept being like a child before Him.

God bless you
Hi @WalkInLight There was a preacher who said: "The first generation may have the Scriptures in their heart. The second generation may have the Scriptures in their heads. The third generation may have the Scriptures on the shelf."

Shows the need to be wholehearted. "And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God." (2 Corinthians 8.5)
 

Bible Highlighter

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What’s the matter with you? Any idiot knows that the purpose of Chastisement is to try to get somebody to abandon a particular sin...

If I tell my daughter not to take the car for some reason and she does it anyway, knowing full well that what she is doing is wrong, I am going to Chastise her....and I don’t Chastise her to “ get my jollies”..... I do it for her own good....Obeying one’s parents can save the life of a child sometimes....they must learn to obey....sometimes Chastisement or the threat of it can keep a child in line....if my daughter disobeys and I punish her because of it and if she understands That if she does it again the punishment will be worse....The hope is that the Disobedience will stop....God Works in the same manner....

What part of “ Chastisement” do I fail to see in your eyes?

I don’t believe you because you said the following.

“I’m a “Righteous” Sinner......* MADE* Righteousness by my Faith in Jesus to Save me...

You are a Sinner too, btw.....best do like I did and go get you some Grace ........you sound like one of those “ Grace Rejectors. ——- and the Grace of God is the ONLY thing that ever Saved Anybody that ever “ Got” Saved.....I suppose YOU got Saved because of your “ morality”.... Anybody that thinks they are “ good enough” to go to Heaven is damned.....so best of luck to you and your delusion and your False Gospel...”


~ Quote by: BloodBought 1953

Source:
Is Jesus the End of the Law?

In other words, if you admit you are a sinner (present tense), then you have not been chastised whereby you should have stopped sinning.

Hebrews 12:8 says,

“But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.”​

#1. This aligns with Scripture because Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34);
#2. Then Jesus says that a slave (slave to sin) will not remain in the house (i.e. the house of Christ) forever (John 8:35).

For Jesus said:

“Whoever is of God hears the words of God.
The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
(John 8:47).​

But you can keep ignoring Scripture if you like.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Paul said “I **DO** what I hate to do!” ....Using “your” Twisted and Confused Logic, Paul was the dumbest writer that ever lived....He meant to say “ did” but constantly and consistently used the word “ do”...... lol.....how laughable this is .....please show me in the history of writing and literature where anybody ELSE did this!

In Defending the true meaning of Romans 7:

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

The first half of Romans 7:25 transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Paul said “I **DO** what I hate to do!” ....Using “your” Twisted and Confused Logic, Paul was the dumbest writer that ever lived....He meant to say “ did” but constantly and consistently used the word “ do”...... lol.....how laughable this is .....please show me in the history of writing and literature where anybody ELSE did this!

There are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problems with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.​

(Continued in next post):
 
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Bible Highlighter

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#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,

8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10).
So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!

We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.
What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?


Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).​


Source used for a small paragraph within this write up:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
 

BloodBought 1953

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#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,

8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10).
So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!

We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.
What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?


Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).​

Source used for a small paragraph within this write up:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25


Once again......send me “ The Reader’s Digest” version of this if you ever get one.....
 
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Bible Highlighter

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“Change “ saves nobody .......RESTING in Paul’s Gospel ( Given to Him by Jesus) is what Saves.........Do “ That” and God will put His Spirit in you and you will be TRANSFORMED .....Remember that “ Inside Of The Cup” thingy that Jesus talked about? THAT is Transformation....that is what God wants to do “ FOR” you.....

Anybody can “ Turn over a New Leaf” or perform a “ Change” —— Only “ GOD” can TRANSFORM! Try to learn the difference......Heaven and Hell are at stake .....

You are not making any sense.

First, nowhere did I say that we are to change without God’s power. That is your false twist on my words that I did not make. When I talk about change, I am talking about God illuminating your eyes to the truth of what the Bible really says and you will be convicted of those verses that teach how sin can destroy your soul. For if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26).

Second, while God can clean us, we also have to take part in living a holy life. God is not going to do all the work for you to live a holy life. You have to surrender and choose to do good. But of course, we have to ask God for help, and put His Word into practice. You will not be able to clean the inside of the cup if you declare you are a sinner saved by God’s grace and you attack those who teach that we must obey God’s Word to enter the Kingdom. Jesus attacked the Pharisees not because they did not have a belief like yours but because they justified sin or evil (See: Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42). So your quoting of Scripture of Jesus talking about the cleaning of the inside of the cup does not apply to you because you said you are a sinner saved by God’s grace, etcetera. You really don’t believe those words by Jesus. So don’t pretend like you believe them. You really don’t. The only way you can believe them is if you believe that you can overcome sin in your life. For to clean the cup implies being inwardly changed on a righteous level to do good.

For Jesus said,

“Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.” (Matthew 23:28).
 
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