Once OSAS Always OSAS

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stunnedbygrace

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32 But I have pleaded in prayer for you, Simon, that your faith should not fail. So when you have repented and turned to me again, strengthen your brothers.”

it reads to me like Jesus is saying his trust WILL fail but that he then repents and returns to trust. It reads like a prophecy about Simon.
 
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robert derrick

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This is contradictory

you are trusting someone, but it’s yourself not God,

jesus said come to him and he will give you rest, you want to,work? Why? Learning to love is not work, it’s placing your faith in Christ. People think it’s hard to overcome, for us it is, for Christ it is not

you can’t overcome sin, that is true,apart from gods help. Thats why you need him

returning to law will not help you overcome sin, and thinking you are sinless is just deceiving yourself. No one is good but God. Jesus said that not me
Once OSAS Always OSAS, and they never miss an opportunity to accuse the righteous of being lawyers only.

I'm thinking the sister is far too gone into doing righteousness rather than sinning, to be recruited back to sinning under celebratory grace.

The only time OSAS speaks of doing righteousness, is to condemn it as hateful law-doing.

In OSAS, the greatest sin is to keep the law of Christ, and be a doer the word as written in letters on paper.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Once OSAS Always OSAS, and they never miss an opportunity to accuse the righteous of being lawyers only.
I am not accusing the righteous. For I am righteous and I would have to accuse myself..

I'm thinking the sister is far too gone into doing righteousness rather than sinning, to be recruited back to sinning under celebratory grace.
Then your sister is trusting in her righteousness for her salvation. Thats dangerous my friend. The jews did that. And see where it got them.

The only time OSAS speaks of doing righteousness, is to condemn it as hateful law-doing.
This is an outright flat out lie my friend. You just committed a sin and broke the command thou shalt not bare false witness.. Hence you are a hypocrite.. demanding other people what you yourself do not do.

In OSAS, the greatest sin is to keep the law of Christ, and be a doer the word as written in letters on paper.
OSAS teaches that the law of Christ is how we mature as believers. We love BECAUSE God first loved us. Not because we have some special power of love. We also teach that if you are trying to love of your own love, and not through Gods love, Your love is insufficient. You don;t have the power

OSAS relies on Gods promise
On Gods Love
On Gods integrity
On Gods Power
On Gods son
On Gods Justice
On Gods word.
On Gods salvation
On Gods everything

OSAS does not trust in self. We will nto go around telling everyone how righteous we are. Praising God we are not like sinners pumping our chest like some self righteous pharisee.

We got on our knees like the tax collector. And every day we wake up. We rely on God. And his strength to get us through the day. We rest in him, Seeking the things of the spirit so we do not do the things of the flesh. Knowing the law of LOVE is what empowers us. The law of moses has no strength in us. Because it has been fulfilled. And can not hurt us anymore.. So we do not have to look at self like you all do. We look to God..
 

Lizbeth

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How often does anyone change their mind about anything in debates on forums? Don't think I've ever seen it. Only the Holy Spirit can change hearts and lead us into all truth, and He is gentle and meek and usually works out of sight if or when flesh gets out of the way.
 

mailmandan

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...OSAS does not trust in self. We will not go around telling everyone how righteous we are. Praising God we are not like sinners pumping our chest like some self righteous pharisee.

We got on our knees like the tax collector...
I'm reminded of the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector every time I come across one of these toxic threads that relentlessly attack and slander OSAS believers and promote the self righteous doctrine of sinless perfection.

Luke 18:9 - Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
 

Eternally Grateful

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How often does anyone change their mind about anything in debates on forums? Don't think I've ever seen it. Only the Holy Spirit can change hearts and lead us into all truth, and He is gentle and meek and usually works out of sight if or when flesh gets out of the way.
I have changed my view on a few things
 

Eternally Grateful

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I'm reminded of the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector every time I come across one of these toxic threads that relentlessly attack and slander OSAS believers and promote the self righteous doctrine of sinless perfection.

Luke 18:9 - Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
The whole council. Not just a Few pet verses
 

Lizbeth

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I have changed my view on a few things

Me too. God is always working among His people and some things are going to change over time as we grow. But harsh attitudes on forums can make it difficult to hear and receive truth, much less admit to anything. We put stumbling blocks in each other's way all too often instead of giving the Lord room to work.
 

mailmandan

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How often does anyone change their mind about anything in debates on forums?
I've been a member of multiple Christian forum sites over the past 10 years now and it's not very often that I see someone persuaded to change their mind over such controversial doctrines such as OSAS vs NOSAS, although some people may change their minds over a few other things, as EG pointed out.

Don't think I've ever seen it.
It amazes me how certain people believe that if they just continue to beat you over the head with the same arguments over and over again with just the right amount of rhetoric, then they will eventually persuade you to see things THEIR way. It's an ego trip for certain people to try and get others to change their mind and see things THEIR way. Such people are mainly interested in drawing disciples after themselves.

Only the Holy Spirit can change hearts and lead us into all truth, and He is gentle and meek and usually works out of sight if or when flesh gets out of the way.
Exactly! It was the Holy Spirit Who led me to the gospel truth several years ago and my life has never been the same since. Praise God! :)

1 Thessalonians 1:5 - For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Me too. God is always working among His people and some things are going to change over time as we grow. But harsh attitudes on forums can make it difficult to hear and receive truth, much less admit to anything. We put stumbling blocks in each other's way all too often.
Amen sister.

If we come in trying to defeat a doctrine or a point of view. We are not open that our doctrine or point of view may be off. And we will be deaf to anything anyone ways unless they agree with us..

I have found that is where most heated arguments come from..
 

Michiah-Imla

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If we come in trying to defeat a doctrine or a point of view. We are not open that our doctrine or point of view may be off. And we will be deaf to anything anyone ways unless they agree with us..

There is a truth.

And there are lies.

The Bible is where the truth is found.

“…ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” (Jude 1:3)

But everyone seems to have accepted the damnable doctrine of “everyone has his own truth”.

The Bible is truth and those who twist, add, and take away words from the Bible should be confronted every time they speak lies.

“Preach the word; be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” (2 Timothy 4:2-4)

Many have turned their ears away from the truth. They have turned to un-inspired books to help sooth their itching ears. They use un-inspired books to “interpret” the inspired words of God in the Bible. What a colossal fail!
 

Eternally Grateful

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There is a truth.

And there are lies.

The Bible is where the truth is found.

“…ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” (Jude 1:3)

But everyone seems to have accepted the damnable doctrine of “everyone has his own truth”.

The Bible is truth and those who twist, add, and take away words from the Bible should be confronted every time they speak lies.

“Preach the word; be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” (2 Timothy 4:2-4)

Many have turned their ears away from the truth. They have turned to un-inspired books to help sooth their itching ears. They use un-inspired books to “interpret” the inspired words of God in the Bible. What a colossal fail!
Sadly my friend your own of the worst offenders.

Your here to defeat OSAS or eternal security in Christ at all cost. so you are blind to hear anyone or anything that people will say unless they agree with you.

As such, you slander belittle and accuse them of saying or doing things which are not true.
 

Michiah-Imla

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Your here to defeat OSAS or eternal security in Christ at all cost

There is no doctrine in the Bible teaching Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security in Christ. Christ himself said that you will be SAVED if you endure to the end (Matthew 24:13). Other scriptures agree: Romans 11:22; Colossians 1:23; 2 Peter 2:20. And I’ve heard these scriptures twisted all kinds of ways by those on your side.

so you are blind to hear anyone or anything that people will say unless they agree with you

No, unless what they say agrees with the Bible!

As such, you slander belittle….

I don’t slander or falsely accuse anyone! But what did Elijah do here?

“And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.” (1 Kings 18:27)
 
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robert derrick

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There is no doctrine in the Bible teaching Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security in Christ. Christ himself said that you will SAVED if you endure to the end (Matthew 24:13). Other scriptures agree: Romans 11:22; Colossians 1:23; 2 Peter 2:20. And I’ve heard these scriptures twisted all kinds of ways by those on your side.



No, unless what they say agrees with the Bible!



I don’t slander or falsely accuse anyone! But what did Elijah do here?

“And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.” (1 Kings 18:27)
You posted about abiding in the Scripture only, and that we shouldn't twist them. You simply exhorted in the truth. You named no names, nor directed it toward no doctrine.

And the OSAS knives came out.

You may be perplexed at that, until you realize these OSAS warriors have declared all letters of Scripture to be dead and no longer matter.
 
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BarneyFife

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Id like to see you lay that out.
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Okay. So you know we're in the lion's den here, right, Sis? :)
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I know you would at least reason it out with scripture.
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It's often not easy for me to express the way I see certain subjects directly alongside scriptural references. However, things run through kind of a scripture-shaped filter in my head. My subconscious mind is constantly meditating on Scripture that I'm familiar with. At least, that's the way it seems to me. I hear something said or see something done and I think, "that's right because..." or "nope, that's not right."
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By eternal security do you mean eternal life?
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No, I mean what people like to epithetically refer to as "OSAS" around here—the idea that once you say the sinner's prayer you are irrevocably saved—of course, for some, with the caveat that you had to be sincere when you said it—which turns "eternal security" into "righteousness by sincerity," which actually affords no assurance at all, since it has many people doubting their salvation and "being saved" over and over again, just in case they weren't really sincere the last time they were "saved." (My own father struggles with this. He actually listens to Joel Osteen to relieve his mind and avoid dealing with it, so I know considerably of that which I speak in this case) So, it's really hard not to run off the rails with this subject; it has so many holes and pitfalls. Any time you have a doctrine that is not in keeping with the true character of God, confusion abounds.

Speaking of which, there's also the consideration that "OSAS" is a doctrine that goes hand in hand with the doctrine of eternal torment, being that the punishment of the wicked, being so horrific, necessitates an iron-clad, permanent immunization ("OSAS") against it. It is almost entirely certain that the doctrine was born out of this fear.

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Or do you mean a good eternal life of honor rather than dishonor?
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Not exactly sure what you're talking about here, but I don't think so. I believe the merit required to secure eternal life for the sinner is entirely and exclusively inherent in the incredibly gracious love worked out and exhibited in the life, death, resurrection, and heavenly, mediatorial work of the LORD Jesus Christ. PERIOD. And this body of work is the only one of its kind and will be the criteria for what was lost for us by Adam and Eve as title to face-to-face association with God and His unfallen creation. This simply cannot be overstated or overstressed. To understate is to miss the point of the Gospel entirely.

So any human effort toward earning salvation is basically a bona fide abomination to God, but effort motivated by His amazing love for us in service and obedience certainly is not and will, in fact, be what we are judged by to determine whether we are fit—not entitled—to inhabit eternity.


IOW, obedience is really no more than a thank offering, and to make it more is to do despite to the Spirit of grace. But it is essential, however, in that it assures the unfallen host of God that we can be trusted (and this is key) to rebel no more with the unfallen nature that Adam had, along with the witness of what sin cost the Son of God (displayed in the scars in His body). The science of redemption will be the study and wonderment of God's creation throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity.


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I do know, having listened to you for quite a few years, that you believe if we keep our trust to the end, we live forever. At least that’s what I’ve gotten and understood from you.
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Technically speaking, we cannot keep our own trust to the end. I would say, perhaps more succinctly, the unutterable grace of God that keeps our trust to the end is, even now, securing and sustaining (since it verily begins at conversion) eternal life for us. Our only part in cooperating with God is being mindful and accepting of the need for a constant surrendering of our will to Him. If we allow Him to master this in us, we cannot be shaken. All is of grace, however. This surrender and the mindfulness of it is, itself, a gift of God, which He offers to all at any time, regardless of what we have done a minute or a century ago. His mercies are fresh every morning. Great is His faithfulness.

He does not cast us off from sin to sin. This is the block of stumbling inherent in the doctrine of eternal security. The assumption is urged upon the mind by the enemy of souls that if we are not in a state of irrevocable salvation every nanosecond, we cannot hope to be secure in our salvation. Virtually every promise in the Bible is assurance of our salvation. God will empty Heaven for the sake of one soul caught in the snare of the adversary. His arm is not shortened that He cannot save. If He spared not His own Son, how is it that He will not also with Him freely give us all things? When I survey the wondrous Cross, there can be no doubt in my mind that all Heaven is employed in Christ's pursuit of authoring and finishing everyone's salvation. And I've never been so sure of anything in my life.

If, at last, I am lost, it will be because I simply would not have it any other way. Part of this kind of discourse distresses me. It doesn't take very long at all for me to start thinking "Why is it so important that I be saved, anyway? Would not the angst for my own soul's redemption be better expended on that of another? My family, my friends, enemies, even? And what of Jesus? Is not His glory and praise more important than my survival? Of course from His point of view, things are turned around 180 degrees, but are we not, ourselves, to walk even as He walked?"

God is love. The Bible describes love as patient, not easily angered, and not inclined to keep record of wrongs. I wonder how so many have been taught to see God as one who constantly has "Aha!" upon his lips. Far be it from Him. Of course, He has to clean up an aisle once in a while so that the devil doesn't gain full sway over the store. But the default mind of Christ is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Spirit.

This distortion of God's character as one who would be anxious to rid himself of one more child at the drop of a hat is strange to me. Is a man's eternal destiny of so little importance to God that He would cut it short at the first opportunity? Or is He such a heinous tyrant that He has to offer us one-way tickets to escape His gleeful realization of Dante's Inferno?

This is who He is:

As Judas came to meet and deliver Him up to the fearful perpetrators of His murder on the eve of His death with a kiss, what did He call him?

F-R-I-E-N-D


(This all needs rewriting—it is horribly structureless—I hope it is thoughtful and clear enough. I want to represent Him rightly, for He is worthy.)

:)

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dev553344

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Hi @robert derrick. I see you have been posting alot of threads against OSAS. And while I find some biblical support of losing ones salvation I also see some support for OSAS. Particularly this verse comes to mind:

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

So I wonder if both ideas are correct. Since I also find this:

Hebrews 6:4-8
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For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

So I'm left wondering how you interpret John 10:28

I think the way I interpret it is that once God has chosen a person to save them, they cannot perish, but can sin and need to be delivered to repentance.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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No, I mean what people like to epithetically refer to as "OSAS" around here—the idea that once you say the sinner's prayer you are irrevocably saved—of course, for some, with the caveat that you had to be sincere when you said it—which turn's "eternal security" into "righteousness by sincerity,"

Well that’s not right. You don’t receive eternal life by what you say. You receive eternal life when you’re given the down payment of the Holy Spirit.
Of course, there are both vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, but we never get to that because we get stalled arguing over if eternal life can be taken away.
 
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robert derrick

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For I am righteous and I would have to accuse myself...

We will not go around telling everyone how righteous we are.

Now sinners are the righteous, that don't tell anyone how righteous they are.

Then your sister is trusting in her righteousness for her salvation.

My sister, yes. Your sister, no.

This is an outright flat out lie my friend. You just committed a sin and broke the command thou shalt not bare false witness.. Hence you are a hypocrite.. demanding other people what you yourself do not do.

Liars, false accusers, and hypocrites are not my friend, neither would I call them one.

The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords.

And when Abner was returned to Hebron, Joab took him aside in the gate to speak with him quietly, and smote him there under the fifth rib, that he died.

But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?


OSAS teaches that the law of Christ is how we mature as believers. We love BECAUSE God first loved us. Not because we have some special power of love.

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.


The law of moses has no strength in us. .

Neither does the law of Christ.

No law of Scripture in letters matters to OSAS anymore.

The only law of OSAS is their own mind.

The law of moses has no strength in us. Because it has been fulfilled. And can not hurt us anymore.. .
Neither the God of Israel nor Moses wanted to hurt anyone.

But transgressors will hate them for their law anyway.

I hate vain thoughts and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.

The righteous love the law of the Lord, and does not curse it as an enemy.

We look to God..

Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
 
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dev553344

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Well that’s not right. You don’t receive eternal life by what you say. You receive eternal life when you’re given the down payment of the Holy Spirit.
You receive eternal life when Jesus and God resurrect your body and bless you with eternal life in heaven. Not until then have you received eternal life. We are all appointed to death still. Can you live forever in the here and now?