Once OSAS Always OSAS

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BarneyFife

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Well that’s not right. You don’t receive eternal life by what you say. You receive eternal life when you’re given the down payment of the Holy Spirit.
Of course, there are both vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, but we never get to that because we get stalled arguing over if eternal life can be taken away.
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Okay, but I'm not at all sure you're not preaching to the choir here. With the slight exception that I would not characterize the gift of the Holy Spirit as a down payment. If a man is willing to do God's will, he is qualified to receive as much of the Holy Spirit as he truly desires, if my understanding of what Scripture teaches in regard to this is correct.
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stunnedbygrace

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You receive eternal life when Jesus and God resurrect your body and bless you with eternal life in heaven. Not until then have you received eternal life. We are all appointed to death still. Can you live forever in the here and now?

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
 
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Michiah-Imla

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And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Yes, but:

“Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.” (Romans 11:20-21)
 

stunnedbygrace

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I would not characterize the gift of the Holy Spirit as a down payment.


14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Another translation:
14 The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

Another:
14 That Spirit is the down payment of our inheritance,
which we shall share
when God has redeemed us
as his own possession,
to the praise of his glory.
 
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dev553344

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And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Yes the eternal life is a promise, but not something received yet. So while I don't say I am saved, I have hope for that promise. So I posted a comment in post #37 regarding that promise.
 
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dev553344

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Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Yes, but:

“Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.” (Romans 11:20-21)

They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you hold your place only because of your faith. Therefore, do not rise up in pride but be filled with awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he might not spare you either.

This isn’t some bewildering fear that always wonders if He might decide to cut us off for some reason we can’t ascertain.
 
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Michiah-Imla

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@Eternally Grateful @mailmandan @Behold @Jim B @BloodBought 1953

Whenever temptation comes along, be like Joseph and say:

“…how …can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?” (Genesis 39:9)

Because although committing this ONE act of adultery wouldn’t make him a practitioner of adultery, yet he still recognized the great wickedness in just ONE act of sin.
 
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Michiah-Imla

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They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you hold your place only because of your faith

Yes, the unbelievers. But your faith alone doesn’t absolve you of continuing in God’s GOODNESS. So don’t continue in the EVILNESS of the Devil.

“Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:22)
 

robert derrick

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I've been a member of multiple Christian forum sites over the past 10 years now and it's not very often that I see someone persuaded to change their mind over such ontroversial doctrines such as OSAS vs NOSAS, although some people may change their minds over a few other things, as EG pointed out.

Once OSAS Always OSAS.

It amazes me how certain people believe that if they just continue to beat you over the head with the same arguments over and over again with just the right amount of rhetoric, then they will eventually persuade you to see things THEIR way.

I personally no longer argue with OSAS proselytes. Why? Because Once OSAS Always OSAS.

When OSAS started declaring all letters of Scriptural law to be dead, and only what mattered to them was written in their own minds, that is when I realized it is complete folly to try and persuade them about anything from Scripture.

The only question I still have is why they even bother to quote any such ink on paper, especially twist them into misshapen pretzels.

I got worn out from trying to unwind the Gordian knot of OSAS long ago. Just when it gets at least a little straighter, another new wrinkle and twist is added to it.

Now, I just keep posting the OSAS knot one strand at a time, and let people see for themselves.

And it has been shown, that when the OSAS knives come out to kill the messenger, they NEVER actually dispute what is being said.

This one being just another example.

I'm reminded of the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector

Two people in Scripture most abused by OSAS sinners: The repentant tax collector made into a chest-beating sinner for life, and an apostle called Paul made into the chiefest of sinners for life

The favorite verses of Scripture, that they don't need to twist, is how none of them are righteous, no, not one.

The favorite OSAS chapter is Romans 7, where they commit to double heartedness for life.

every time I come across one of these toxic threads that relentlessly attack and slander OSAS believers

A sister was witnessing of her deliverance from her past sinning, after leaving the OSAS trap of trusting in grace only.

And the usual OSAS knife-wielders come out to declare her a self-righteous evil-doing law keeper.

And now, another thread is made toxic.

Like thieves trashing a home, and then declaring what a mess it is.

promote the self righteous doctrine of sinless perfection.

The good ol' ever ready stand by: going to sin no more and do righteousness at all times, to be righteous even as He is righteous, is the most hated verses of Scripture by OSAS righteous sinners.

OSAS is all about becoming better sinners. By grace they become better than sinners. As well as better than sinless.

OSAS are all our betters. No sinner nor sinless saint can hold a candle to them.

And now, they are even claiming to be righteous. And brag less about still be sinners. Now, they are the righteous sinners better than the unrighteous sinners and the sinless saints.

You see how I no longer argue against the OSAS sect of righteous christian sinners, but only define it without all the fluffy grace-speak.

OSAS believers don't just sin. Now they sin righteously, which is far better than just sinning, and far far better than being sinless.
 
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BarneyFife

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32 But I have pleaded in prayer for you, Simon, that your faith should not fail. So when you have repented and turned to me again, strengthen your brothers.”

it reads to me like Jesus is saying his trust WILL fail but that he then repents and returns to trust. It reads like a prophecy about Simon.
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Okay, so, since I rambled to Heaven and back on my other reply, I'll try to make this as brief as possible, since it is fairly simple (we'll see how that works out for me, eh?).

The way I see this, apart from your astute observation that Luke 22 indeed contains prophetic utterance from my Jesus (just gotta say it once in a while—He belongs to all of us, Praise God!!):


The traditional teaching of Protestant Christianity is that when we first surrender our lives to the LORD Jesus Christ our names are written in the Lamb's book of life and that this is what Christ is referring to in Luke 10:20. So, I think it goes without saying that this is all synonymous with the new birth experience taught by Jesus in his encounter with Nicodemus in the early art of John, chapter 3, otherwise known as conversion, right?

So why does the LORD seem to say 12 chapters later that Peter is yet to be converted? Is it because he has not yet been converted, or is it because he has, indeed, been converted but has somehow lost his salvation status along the way?

Do ya see where I'm going with this? (rhetorical)


Why would he need to be re-converted if salvation is once-and-done?

Could it be that salvation is not, after all, a once-and-done, transaction model, as the eternal security doctrine teaches, at all?

I think it could definitely be so.

I die daily.

Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
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BarneyFife

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14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Another translation:
14 The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

Another:
14 That Spirit is the down payment of our inheritance,
which we shall share
when God has redeemed us
as his own possession,
to the praise of his glory.
.
.

I am indeed aware of the metaphor, that Paul tends to use them prolifically (always taking into account the particular minds he was reaching in his various epistles--1 Corinthians 9:19-23), and that too much can be made of them to the point that using them as proof texts, especially to support nuts and bolts of the faith (in contrast with major components, perhaps), can actually obscure truth. I have found that the words of the LORD Jesus Himself help me a lot in understanding the many things that Peter says Paul writes, which are hard to be understood. Save Christ Himself, there can be little doubt that Paul was the greatest teacher of the Gospel in the New Testament.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled.

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robert derrick

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@Eternally Grateful @mailmandan @Behold @Jim B @BloodBought 1953

Whenever temptation comes along, be like Joseph and say:

“…how …can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?” (Genesis 39:9)

Because although committing this ONE act of adultery wouldn’t make him a practitioner of adultery, yet he still recognized the great wickedness in just ONE act of sin.
Very true, and is the simple point that all OSAS argues against. They twist Scripture to turn sinning now with the devil, into a one-off that doesn't count as sinning with the devil all the time. Since it's only 'once', then it's not always.

And yet, sinning once now is all the time there is. Right now. Yesterday is past, and tomorrow may not come, so all that matters is what we are doing now.

They are just sinning once now, while telling themselves they are not a 'practitioner' of sinning with the devil, and so are not now a child of the devil.

But God, truth of Scripture, and reality says every person is a practitioner of something, when in the act of practicing it. It has nothing to do with being a good or bad practitioner, nor how often.

It makes as much sense to argue with OSAS, as it would with a senseless liar trying to redefine what is, is.
 

Helen

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Hi @robert derrick. I see you have been posting alot of threads against OSAS. And while I find some biblical support of losing ones salvation I also see some support for OSAS. Particularly this verse comes to mind:

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

So I wonder if both ideas are correct. Since I also find this:

Hebrews 6:4-8
4
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

So I'm left wondering how you interpret John 10:28

I think the way I interpret it is that once God has chosen a person to save them, they cannot perish, but can sin and need to be delivered to repentance.

hi there ..I liked your post .

For me personally , I believe God saves EVERYONE …in his own order …We see it in pattern in the OT …ONLY Moses spoke with God face to face …then there was Aaron who went in and out into the Holy of Holies …then we have the priests who served in the Holy Place with maintaining the oil ,shew bread, etc
…then we see all the priests who served at the altar in the outer court , checking and slaying the lambs and sacrifices…
Then we have all of those camped around the tabernacle .

it always amazes me that people can only see heaven as one big glob of saved people. They get so angry if anyone points out that in heaven not everyone is equal . There are levels in glory just as we see in the patterns shown to us in the OT .

I believe that we are as close to God in heaven as we’ve been here .
We choose how we live here every day. Our choices count in the heavenly realm .

I believe in the power of the blood of Jesus. It was , and IS , ENOUGH.

I believe that every knee WILL bow , and tongue WILL confess ….He is Lord .

God set Adam and Eve in the Garden , He was not shocked or wringing His hands when they fell…He already had The Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world …in place , waiting …

God always intended to win…He will not say at the End… “ 1/3 victory for Me, and 2/3 win for my Enemy …what a victory …now let’s go and party . “. Good so loved the world , that He GAVE….at a great price .

Why the great love of God infuriates some people I have no idea.

Just my two cents . Blessings.
 
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Wynona

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This is contradictory

you are trusting someone, but it’s yourself not God,

jesus said come to him and he will give you rest, you want to,work? Why? Learning to love is not work, it’s placing your faith in Christ. People think it’s hard to overcome, for us it is, for Christ it is not

you can’t overcome sin, that is true,apart from gods help. Thats why you need him

returning to law will not help you overcome sin, and thinking you are sinless is just deceiving yourself. No one is good but God. Jesus said that not me


Well, thank you for giving some Scripture. Let's reason together.

You said you can't overcome sin. But that isn't true according to Scripture.

1 Peter 4:1-2

Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

Also, there is John 9:31 and 1 John 3:6

It is true that we are saved by grace through faith and its not of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8).

Remember Paul, though.

Romans 6:15

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

But what does the Bible say grace teaches us to do?

Titus 2: 11-13

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,


I do not trust myself to make it into heaven. Jesus' blood cleanses us from our past sins, otherwise none of us would make it. But by his grace, Im learning to deny ungodliness. He promises to give us a way of escape from temptation.

And good works are what we are meant to do as believers, not self righteousness. We are not under the law of Moses. But we are under the law of Christ who commanded us to love one another.

Please consider this Scripture.

Titus 2:13-14
New King James Version

13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.







 

Eternally Grateful

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There is no doctrine in the Bible teaching Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security in Christ. Christ himself said that you will be SAVED if you endure to the end (Matthew 24:13). Other scriptures agree: Romans 11:22; Colossians 1:23; 2 Peter 2:20. And I’ve heard these scriptures twisted all kinds of ways by those on your side.



No, unless what they say agrees with the Bible!



I don’t slander or falsely accuse anyone! But what did Elijah do here?

“And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.” (1 Kings 18:27)
I rest my case!

good day sir
 
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stunnedbygrace

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So why does the LORD seem to say 12 chapters later that Peter is yet to be converted? Is it because he has not yet been converted, or is it because he has, indeed, been converted but has somehow lost his salvation status along the way?

peter had not, at that point, received the Holy Spirit, so he was not yet born again from above. He believed, but he failed in trust, then returned to trust. So I don’t think converted is the best word to use there.
 
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dev553344

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hi there ..I liked your post .

For me personally , I believe God saves EVERYONE …in his own order …We see it in pattern in the OT …ONLY Moses spoke with God face to face …then there was Aaron who went in and out into the Holy of Holies …then we have the priests who served in the Holy Place with maintaining the oil ,shew bread, etc
…then we see all the priests who served at the altar in the outer court , checking and slaying the lambs and sacrifices…
Then we have all of those camped around the tabernacle .

it always amazes me that people can only see heaven as one big glob of saved people. They get so angry if anyone points out that in heaven not everyone is equal . There are levels in glory just as we see in the patterns shown to us in the OT .

I believe that we are as close to God in heaven as we’ve been here .
We choose how we live here every day. Our choices count in the heavenly realm .

I believe in the power of the blood of Jesus. It was , and IS , ENOUGH.

I believe that every knee WILL bow , and tongue WILL confess ….He is Lord .

God set Adam and Eve in the Garden , He was not shocked or wringing His hands when they fell…He already had The Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world …in place , waiting …

God always intended to win…He will not say at the End… “ 1/3 victory for Me, and 2/3 win for my Enemy …what a victory …now let’s go and party . “. Good so loved the world , that He GAVE….at a great price .

Why the great love of God infuriates some people I have no idea.

Just my two cents . Blessings.
I like this, it reminds me of several beliefs about heaven. That there are degrees of heaven and some are more sinful in this life and go to a lesser heaven. It also reminds me of the second book of Enoch from the dead sea scrolls, which I liked hearing about, there are 10 heavens in his book.
 
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