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Wrangler

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Soooo initially they do disagree but in the end they will all come around to the Truth?

Mary, not everyone has thought everything through all the time. Many have preliminary thoughts on things but can be reasoned with. I won't add, then there are Roman Catholics, but I think you get my drift.

Hmmmm.......so why are there so many denominations with so many different Truths?

One thing has nothing to do with the other thing.

If you want to start a thread on the proliferation of the many wonderful denominations, that would be great. :D
 
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Marymog

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Marymog

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This is amusing...trying so hard to evade and confuse the obvious truth because it doesn't agree with what your men have taught you.

Here's how it works (You can follow along in the pages of your very own Bible if you want):

A brother sins against you. You show him his fault and he listens to you. He repents and asks for and receives the forgiveness of the offended person. God is there with them and approves, placing his stamp of approval on the forgiveness worked out between them, for "if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven" (Matthew 18:19). Done! No need for a pope, or a cardinal, or a bishop. No ceremonies or rituals needed. The person is forgiven here on earth and in heaven above. The matter is resolved. End of story.

But if he doesn't listen to you the offended brother brings in two or three witnesses. Jesus cites the scriptures that stipulate that a person is not to be condemned and treated as a pagan or a tax collector without the testimony of two or three witnesses. The offended person by himself could not pass this judgment. That would be unlawful. And so this is not to establish whether or not what he did is a sin (though he may well be insisting it is not, lol), but rather to convict this person of their wrong doing. This is the verse Jesus cites in Matthew 18:16...

"One witness is not enough to convict a man accused of any crime or offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." Deuteronomy 19:15
So we can see this is not about whether or not what the man did is a sin. It's about whether or not he really committed it, and to be convicted if he did. The hope is, of course, that the sinner will acknowledge his guilt and ask for and receive forgiveness, for "if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." (Matthew 18:19-20). Once again, no popes, no cardinals, no bishops, no ceremonies, no rituals required. The matter of forgiveness and reconciliation can be settled in the earth and in heaven by those present.

Now, if the brother still doesn't acknowledge his guilt and ask for and receive forgiveness, that is when the matter is taken before the whole congregation. It doesn't matter if Sally, or Ralph, or Gerald aren't in attendance at that meeting. It's not a vote. The matter of forgiveness and reconciliation could not be settled by the parties and witnesses involved so the matter is taken before the pastor, elders and congregation. The matter is reviewed, perhaps discussed, all under the authority and guidance of the pastor and elders of the congregation. And if the sinner still does not repent and receive forgiveness he is turned over to his sin and is to be regarded by the whole congregation as a pagan or a tax collector (IOW, an unbeliever).
Ok Ferris….I will get 2 of my brothers from the Catholic Church and all 3 of use agree that “baptism now saves you”; just like Scripture says. Therefor we have decided that water baptism is necessary for salvation.

You get 2 of your brothers from your congregation and say that baptism doesn’t save you and it is not necessary.

We were all gathered in His name. Right? Who is right Ferris? Your men or my men? Did you read the passages BEFORE that to put it in CONTEXT? You didn’t, did you?

Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

So Ferris, we bound on earth that baptism does save you and is necessary. Your men bound on earth that baptism isn’t necessary and doesn’t save you. God assured us that our decision is bound in heaven also. Soooo who is confused here Ferris? You or God? You seem to think that God will bind any decision that you make as long as you make that decision with a couple of people from your congregation while you are sitting in your basement sipping a cup of tea and studying the Bible.

Sooooo who was Jesus speaking to in those passages Ferris? Not you. Not me. Read the CONTEXT of those passages a figure it out. It is a waste of time to ask your men who taught you such nonsense since they taught you wrong.

Bible study Mary
 

Marymog

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It is not my job to guide anyone to the truth. Jesus is the truth. And the Holy Spirit will lead people in all truth. What part of this do you not grasp?
.

Make a Blessed Day!
Ok Wrangler. We agree. The Holy Spirit will lead people to the Truth. And the Holy Spirit led the men of the Catholic Church to the Truth.

Do you agree with that?
 

Wrangler

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Ok….But you are not disagreeing with me. You are disagreeing with the Supreme Court:

As the final arbiter of the law, the Court is charged with ensuring the American people the promise of equal justice under law and, thereby, also functions as guardian and interpreter of the Constitution.

About the Court - Supreme Court of the United States
Would not be the 1st time I disagreed with the Court. They are the supreme court, not the supreme being.
 

Wrangler

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Ok Wrangler. We agree. The Holy Spirit will lead people to the Truth. And the Holy Spirit led the men of the Catholic Church to the Truth.

Do you agree with that?
No. The Roman Catholic Church is the first Christian heretic in history, unilaterally changing a creed they earlier agreed to. See Filoque.
 

Jim B

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Ok Ferris….I will get 2 of my brothers from the Catholic Church and all 3 of use agree that “baptism now saves you”; just like Scripture says. Therefor we have decided that water baptism is necessary for salvation.

You get 2 of your brothers from your congregation and say that baptism doesn’t save you and it is not necessary.

We were all gathered in His name. Right? Who is right Ferris? Your men or my men? Did you read the passages BEFORE that to put it in CONTEXT? You didn’t, did you?

Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

So Ferris, we bound on earth that baptism does save you and is necessary. Your men bound on earth that baptism isn’t necessary and doesn’t save you. God assured us that our decision is bound in heaven also. Soooo who is confused here Ferris? You or God? You seem to think that God will bind any decision that you make as long as you make that decision with a couple of people from your congregation while you are sitting in your basement sipping a cup of tea and studying the Bible.

Sooooo who was Jesus speaking to in those passages Ferris? Not you. Not me. Read the CONTEXT of those passages a figure it out. It is a waste of time to ask your men who taught you such nonsense since they taught you wrong.

Bible study Mary

If baptism saves you then all the people who came to John and were baptized were saved and had no need for Jesus. QED
 

Ferris Bueller

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Ok Ferris….I will get 2 of my brothers from the Catholic Church and all 3 of use agree that “baptism now saves you”; just like Scripture says. Therefor we have decided that water baptism is necessary for salvation.
OMGosh, are you really that dense, or are you just stubborn, lol?
The passage is about if someone sins against you.
And all it takes is for the parties involved to offer forgiveness and receive it and the matter is thus settled in heaven and earth. No popes needed. No cardinals, no bishops, no special ceremonies or rituals.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.
KNOCK, KNOCK!
The passage is about FORGIVENESS. NOT DOCTRINE!
When God in heaven sees two brothers embraced in forgiveness God sees it and the matter is settled in heaven.
 
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Jim B

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Ok Wrangler. We agree. The Holy Spirit will lead people to the Truth. And the Holy Spirit led the men of the Catholic Church to the Truth.

Do you agree with that?

So, let's forget about the crusades, the inquisitions, the excommunications of those who dared oppose the official doctrine, the mass murders committed in the name of the Catholic church, and even today, the pedophilia practiced by priests. None of that is what I call God's truth!
 
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Ferris Bueller

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You seem to think that God will bind any decision that you make as long as you make that decision with a couple of people from your congregation
No, better than that!
The matter of forgiveness (THE CONTEXT OF THE PASSAGE) is able to be settled just between the two people themselves. The forgiveness they loose on earth is loosed in heaven, too. Yes, mere sheep have this power. No popes needed. No cardinals. No bishops. NO CATHOLIC CHURCH NEEDED.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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Sooooo who was Jesus speaking to in those passages Ferris? Not you. Not me. Read the CONTEXT of those passages a figure it out. It is a waste of time to ask your men who taught you such nonsense since they taught you wrong.
All you gotta do is read the passage, lol!

Why can't you see the two gathered together in his name are the one who sinned and the one who got sinned against? And they, just the two of them, have the power to settle the matter of forgiveness on earth and in heaven ALL BY THEMSELVES. NO CATHOLIC CHURCH NEEDED. The forgiveness that is loosed between them IS LOOSED IN HEAVEN TOO. Wake up! Read the Bible for yourself and tell your Catholic hierarchy to talk to the hand! Be a Berean and stop blindly following people who claim they are the only one's who can tell you what the Bible means.
 

Marymog

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All you gotta do is read the passage, lol!

Why can't you see the two gathered together in his name are the one who sinned and the one who got sinned against? And they, just the two of them, have the power to settle the matter of forgiveness on earth and in heaven ALL BY THEMSELVES. NO CATHOLIC CHURCH NEEDED. The forgiveness that is loosed between them IS LOOSED IN HEAVEN TOO. Wake up! Read the Bible for yourself and tell your Catholic hierarchy to talk to the hand! Be a Berean and stop blindly following people who claim they are the only one's who can tell you what the Bible means.
Oh goodness Ferris.....STOP listening to your men. You are looking at that passage through your modern rose colored glasses. Jesus was talking to The Apostles. Not you. Not me. Not every Christian that will ever walk the face of the earth. Listen to His words like a 1st century Jew would have looked at or understood His words. Look at the context of what is being said (take it to THE CHURCH after you have taken it to some other members of the church) and who He was talking to (ONLY The Apostles)!

“Binding and loosing” is a phrase which comes from the rabbis. It refers to the authority to make decisions binding on the people of God. This authority includes interpreting and applying the Word of God and admitting people to and excommunicating them from the community of faith. For the Jews this meant the community of Israel. For Christians this means the Church. In Matthew 16:19 Jesus gives this authority SPECIFICALLY to Peter before anyone else: “Whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven.” In Matthew 18:18, he gives the power to all the apostles: “Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Bible Study Mary
 

Marymog

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No. The Roman Catholic Church is the first Christian heretic in history, unilaterally changing a creed they earlier agreed to. See Filoque.
Lol....ok.....so you really don't believe that the Holy Spirit will lead men to the Truth....Only the men YOU agree with....but not those "other" men.

What this boils down to is that YOU know what the Truth is and YOU decide what men are teaching the Truth.

You do keep me in stitches kiddo....
 

Marymog

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No, better than that!
The matter of forgiveness (THE CONTEXT OF THE PASSAGE) is able to be settled just between the two people themselves. The forgiveness they loose on earth is loosed in heaven, too. Yes, mere sheep have this power. No popes needed. No cardinals. No bishops. NO CATHOLIC CHURCH NEEDED.
What your men have taught you is not what that passage says. But I understand how they came to that conclusion. And that conclusion would make sense if it wasn't for the fact that the difference between the two brothers is being taking to the church OR the sum of all believers as you put it.

Why does it need to go to the sum of all believers if me and one other person from my congregation can just bind or loosen on my our own? Can you NOW see that what your men have taught you is a false teaching?

Also, you really should get off this kick of "no popes, no cardinals, no bishops needed". According to you when a binding decision is made in your gatherings your "sum of all believers" makes the decision. Right?.....it's the same thing kiddo; you just call it something different.
 

Marymog

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No, better than that!
The matter of forgiveness (THE CONTEXT OF THE PASSAGE) is able to be settled just between the two people themselves. The forgiveness they loose on earth is loosed in heaven, too. Yes, mere sheep have this power. No popes needed. No cardinals. No bishops. NO CATHOLIC CHURCH NEEDED.
NO, it is not ONLY about a "matter of forgiveness". Read the passages AGAIN! IN CONTEXT:

It is about a person committing a SIN against you AND your forgiveness of them AFTER they admit it was a SIN. If they disagree with you, and the two brothers that agree with you, that what they did was not a SIN you then take your difference to The Church! Notice how you have already taken the difference to 2 other members of the church? NOW the passage instructs us to take it to THE CHURCH! If they still don't admit it was a sin they are to be kicked out of The Church. Once they admit it was a SIN they are forgiven and allowed back into The Church. For you THE CHURCH is the sum total of all believers. For Christians it is the men in authority in The Church; elders, bishops, cardinals etc. (Hebrews 13:17) In that passage Jesus tells the Apostles (the leaders of The Church at the time) that THEY have the power to bind and loosen THEY are given the keys to the kingdom of heaven. YOU don't have men that rule over you in church matters. You violate Scripture!

NOW you need to learn what a 1st century Jew was taught about binding/loosening and the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Once you learn THAT you will clearly see how what your men have taught you with their 16th century eyes is opposite of what Scripture teaches and you will stop practicing opposite of what Scripture teaches.

Goodness...you are wearing me out.
 

Ferris Bueller

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What your men have taught you is not what that passage says.
No, you're the one who is taught by men. The Catholic church doesn't allow it to be any other way. You are not allowed to think for yourself, or they'll cut you off from the life of Christ by not allowing you to take communion, lol. Me? I just read what the plain words are. When you say 'your men' in your posts it means nothing to me. It only means something to YOU, as I've pointed out.
 
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Jim B

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Oh goodness Ferris.....STOP listening to your men. You are looking at that passage through your modern rose colored glasses. Jesus was talking to The Apostles. Not you. Not me. Not every Christian that will ever walk the face of the earth. Listen to His words like a 1st century Jew would have looked at or understood His words. Look at the context of what is being said (take it to THE CHURCH after you have taken it to some other members of the church) and who He was talking to (ONLY The Apostles)!

“Binding and loosing” is a phrase which comes from the rabbis. It refers to the authority to make decisions binding on the people of God. This authority includes interpreting and applying the Word of God and admitting people to and excommunicating them from the community of faith. For the Jews this meant the community of Israel. For Christians this means the Church. In Matthew 16:19 Jesus gives this authority SPECIFICALLY to Peter before anyone else: “Whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven.” In Matthew 18:18, he gives the power to all the apostles: “Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Bible Study Mary

So in your opinion Jesus' words have temporal application only? What he said doesn't apply outside of time?

BTW, Peter was called "Satan" by Jesus, was referred to as a "stumbling block" by Jesus, and was told that he had the thoughts of men in mind, not God's Matthew 16

And don't take Matthew 18:18 out of context. It was to his disciples (along with other instructions). It was not said to just the apostles.

If you're going to base your arguments on Scripture, don't quote it out of context and make sure you understand to whom it was said and why.

Or, in your own words, "Read the passages AGAIN! IN CONTEXT"