The difference in churches

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Philip James

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I can go on but why

Indeed perhaps you should not as you completely ignore Paul's being part of the ONE Chruch, indeed the Church that he submitted his teaching to..

The idea that we can reject the authority of the Church that Christ Himself founded and on our own authority found a new community and call it 'church' is a teaching of men, that you will not find in any community established by the apostles.

With the Church in Rome, the Church in Alexandria and the Church in Constantinople we have 3 living 2000 year old witnesses to the Faith delivered once for all to the saints..

Where is the 2000 year old apostolic community that rejects the authority of the bishops?

'every planting not of my Father will be uprooted'

Pax et Bonum
 

Alfredthefifth

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@Philip James

When the Bishops inact rules of men to be followed before, Faith, yes I reject that. Even as Jesus told the Pharisees, you follow rules and traditions of men.

In study to answer my rejection of Bishops, I come to 1st Timothy. Paul is describing how to choose the the pastor, the overseer, (the Greek word translated episcopal or bishop), I am highlighting a few things that jump out at me.
Faithful to his wife
Manage his own family well and see that his children obey him and he must do so in a worthy manner.
Interesting two of twelve points in consideration of a Bishop. This 1 Tim 3 v1 to 4
AND THEN VERSE 5
If he doesn't know how to manage his own family HOW can he take care of God's church!

I know celibacy is whatever.
But verse 5 reads if there is no family to weigh his skill with the man is not qualified!

YOUR BISHOPS ARE WHAT? SURELY YOU JEST!

I wrote the rest before I finished the above and see no reason to change it. at the end I will add another SYJ

Can you show me WHY in your chuch the rule of the Bishops is any different? BUT GOD PUT THEM IN CHARGE! God also gave the members tools to test those in charge, and tells us to do this frequently.

Oh yes, I guess you can by taking vers 6 of chapter 7 then verse 2 of chapter 3 and v5of c6 and v2 of 1 and v1 and 2 and so on.

But Paul blesses believers of more then three congregations that he nore any other apostle had ever visited. Members of these congregations had brought back report of Jesus Christ and believed, these congregations sought out other Christians that had been taught by other Christians and then in letters sought Paul before a representative traveled to Paul to confirm that their belief is true.

I have learned painfully that, "PASTOR SAYS," Is the worst doctrine a church can have.
History shows that "but BISHOP SAYS," is even worse because many churches are effected by doctrines of MEN!

SO SYJ this surely you jest! Bishops above God!

Alfredthefifth
 
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Philip James

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When the Bishops inact rules of men to be followed before, Faith, yes I reject that.

What rules before faith do you mean?

Like this one?

Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Pax et Bonum
 

Alfredthefifth

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What rules before faith do you mean?

Like this one?

Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Pax et Bonum

I see you totally ignore 1 Timothy 3 verse
That a man has to have a family, wife and children to judge his ability to fill the role of leadership. That without a family there is no way to judge him worthy and he cannot fill the position. The translation of leader in texts I read are Episcopal also translated bishop.

Jesus said to test everything.

Paul lays out a test

But because I do not recognize a position that is difficult to prove ever passed the test? I am heretic!

Surly you jest

Alfredthefifth
 

Philip James

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I see you totally ignore 1 Timothy 3 verse
That a man has to have a family, wife and children to judge his ability to fill the role of leadership. That without a family there is no way to judge him worthy and he cannot fill the position. The translation of leader in texts I read are Episcopal also translated bishop.

Jesus said to test everything.

Paul lays out a test

But because I do not recognize a position that is difficult to prove ever passed the test? I am heretic!

Surly you jest

Alfredthefifth

Did I call you a heretic?

A heritic is Catholic who obstinately refuses correction by the Church..

Being celibate does not exclude one for the episcopate, else Paul would have to exclude himself! You are reading more into that than is there.

Recogize the position? From the beginning the Church has recognized the 'position' of those ordained by the apostles and/or the bishops that followed them.
Those outside the community cannot claim any standing in the Church whatsoever and so it always has been..

Pax et Bonum
 

Alfredthefifth

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@Philip James

The Claim of ALL AUTHORITY because of scriptures is challenged by scriptures that encourage all Christians to test the truth and validity of the church, the direction of the Church.

Martin Luther tested the church against scriptures and found it was not true. The church denied the test is valid. Is there any surprise there?
Martin Luther was convicted by men that didn't even try to use the Bible in his conviction. Just the oft stated position that these are the leaders are infallibly placed there by God.
If church leaders are so infallible why did God, Jesus tell us test everything. Why did Paul write criterion for choosing the leaders.

The Church fails these tests so it denies the truth of the test.

I am no where near Luther in knowledge. Yet even I have been sorely tested by church leadership. In a church bearing Luther's name the leadership is made up of families of many generations of pastors.
Yes a leader installed over me.
The leader started taking actions because of appearances, started taking actions that hurt people because of appearances. This was justified by those in the neighborhood church, in the church synod, by PASTOR SAID!
When this pastor started weighing in on earthly things, the paint wasn't new enough, the shade of color was wrong, this isn't right that isn't but all earthly things, he was right because pastor says! By the standard of he is the leader he is right. The people he drove from church needed to be driven out. The people that left in hurt and pain why those just weren't good Christians.
I stayed through all the moves all the maneuvering. I heard all the outright lies from the pulpit, all covered over by pastor says.
But the spirit got me through and showed me the way forward.
Along the way learning to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and yes testing even those answers. How does one test the Holy Spirit? First to prove it is Holy Spirit, because there are misleading spirits, false spirits. The test is looking for Grace, Love, Faith and forgiveness the most blessed gifts of God.

Paul wrote a test for those that wanted to be bishops.

But Paul didn't! Being blest by God in ways no other human has who should dare claim what Paul didn't do as any worth ?

I test every single church I go into.

In 500 years The Church has claimed ordained by God, that is all that matters.

Don't justify your church test it!
Not with parsed out scriptures as the Pharisees did but with all scriptures in a continuity of context. Stand alone verses taken from what? That is how the Pharisees made their righteousness!

The test fails the Bishops.

So I deny the Bishops

Alfredthefifth
 

theefaith

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I quickly perused the other replies as I'm late to the party. I'll provide some direct but concise answers. Let's start at the beginning ...

t = 36 - 385 AD
While Christianity grew relatively quickly, transportation and communication across the known world was extremely slow. Naturally, local customs and cultural norms and many languages influenced how the Gospel was expressed and interpreted. While fairly heterogeneous for these reasons, along with the main competition for people's hearts being Pagan religions, the Christian church was united, known as the Apostolic Orthodox and Catholic Church. This peaked in the 4th century when the church Bishops came together (5 in particular of large seas) compiled what we now call the Bible as well as the Nicene Creed.

t = 4c - 12c
As the centuries past, the external pressures on the seas as well as the organic evolution of the societies put pressure on the world, at large and the church. This period of time is ominously called, The Dark Ages. You asked about where these countries come from. One Bishop was at the seat of power, Rome, in the West. The other Bishops were in Africa and the East.

In a desperate attempt to keep the empire, the Roman sea, being the representative of the official Church of empire, sought to secure the north western border with Pagans. To win them over, they appealed to their religion and unilaterally changed the Nicene Creed. See the Filioque. The tactic failed politically and theologically.

The Seat of Power moved from Rome to Constantinople and Western Rome collapsed. Eastern Roman Empire, what we call Byzantine Empire endured. However, the other 4 Bishops were unconcerned about the politics of the West, were insulted that one Bishop presumed the authority to unilaterally change what 5 Bishops had agreed to regarding the creed. Egos, giant egos were also involved. All these stresses - political, cultural, theological - eventually lead to what is known as The Great Schism in the 12 century. The West became known as the Roman Catholic Church, ruled by the Pope. The East became known as the Eastern Orthodox Church, who continue to be ruled by several Patriarchs.

t = 12c to 15c
The arrogance and corruption of the Roman Catholic Church continued for another 4 centuries. The Church and State in Europe were competing for supremacy. On the European continent, it was Martin Luther, who famously posted his 95 theses of specific church abuses that is credited for formerly igniting the Protestant Reformation, which really became a breaking away and did little to actually reform the corrupt Roman Catholic Church. The King of England, Henry VIII provided the military and political support for the Reform movement, when he proclaimed independence from the Roman Church and himself as the newly formed Anglican Church (Church of England). Many other countries split with Rome and there were many wars, mainly over the Church or State supremacy question.

It is not a coincidence that the Reformation, Luther's theses occurred shortly after the printing press. Information and communication increased dramatically due to the printing press technology. The emperor of France, Napoleon finally defeated the Holy Roman Empire founded 1,000 years earlier by Charlemagne. The State won over the crumbling church power base.

t = 15c to present
The proliferation of reform or break away has continued for the last half millennia. Such flowering is often criticized but I see such flowering as unparalleled in all religion as a direct application of Paul being "all things to all people so some may be saved."

Hope this answers your question.

yep they made new churches (heretical sects) no so called reformer was an apostle or had any authority from Christ!

they rejected Christ and his church
Matt 16:18-19 “shall not prevail”!
Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13 truth
1 Tim 3:15 pillar of truth
 

Alfredthefifth

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yep they made new churches (heretical sects) no so called reformer was an apostle or had any authority from Christ!

they rejected Christ and his church
Matt 16:18-19 “shall not prevail”!
Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13 truth
1 Tim 3:15 pillar of truth

You love to twist words.

Luther if anything accepted Christ to the point of being willing to die to get Christ back into the Church.
In Augsburg on trial Luther's only defense was on and in the Bible. "Prove me wrong, CONVICT me with this THE WORD OF GOD!"
At that point the Church DENIED Luther in away that put MEN over God and THE CHURCH denied Christ.

The Bishops refused to use the Word of God to prove the herecy! Could they have proven it in the Bible?
Are INDULGENCES, letters signed by pope granting special sin remittance to be sold to the people, truly in the Bible? The attacking indulgences was one of the charges to Luther being a heretic! The council of Bishops, said of this charge "It is the word of the POPE we do not debate it!"
Man over God denying God by denying the BIBLE.

Yes there are many churches, some false churches. But BLESSEDLY and thankfully we do not have just one false church! PRAISE THE LORD!

IN AUGSBURG, by not using the Bible to convict Luther the Church The Holy Roman Catholic Church revealed itself as false.


Alfredthefifth
 
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Alfredthefifth

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@theefaith

This morning after the above Post #68, I had an inspiration.

I have a dear friend that was badly hurt by a CHURCH. The last time I spoke with he justified it, as is being done here, "That these are The LEADERS the Elders! I have to listen to those God put over me!"

In the case of my friend he welcomed THE WRONG person into church. " This isn't a person THE CHURCH wants! SO YOU ARE TO BADLY WRONG! your out!"

He has been holding on just as tightly to the LEADERS the BISHOPS are appointed by God. Even though the earthly appearance biased judgment IS NOT BIBLICAL at all!

God, Jesus and the inspired writers would not have put warnings of FALSE prophets, leaders, teachers and bishops in the Bible with instructions on how to measure them if it isn't to the entire body of believers to use the instructions.
With false prophets being able to ascend to positions of authority it is imperative for all believers not only to be able to test the leadership but to test frequently!
Willingly following a false teacher that is devouring souls? There is no excuse or pardon because we have been given the tools and knowledge to use to prevent this.

The plee of "BUT THAT WAS THE LEADER OVER ME!" IS GOING TO BE unheard! Because YOU had my word my instructions and didn't follow it!

This came to me more full blown than my skill with words, because of memory of my friend.

Alfredthefifth
 

Pearl

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All churches of whatever denomination or none must surely be teaching some things that are right and true but probably mixed with supposition and man-made doctrines. Each church will perhaps bear some fruit.
 
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Philip James

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The Claim of ALL AUTHORITY because of scriptures is challenged by scriptures that encourage all Christians to test the truth and validity of the church, the direction of the Church.

Test the Truth and Validity of the Church? The pillar and foundation of the Truth?

You have that backwards brother, one has to test the validity of teachers by what the Church teaches.

'for we have the mind of Christ' is very much a communal we..

Pax et Bonum
 

Pearl

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There is and has only ever been one true Church; the church which can only be entered through the narrow gate;
the Church that Jesus talked about – his bride. The biblical Church, which is made up only of those who are true Born Again believers from whatever church background, or none, worldwide, past, present and future. Those who through the revelation of the Holy Spirit have seen Jesus for who he is, recognised what he did, turned from their sin and accepted him into their hearts and lives as Lord and Saviour. Anybody who hasn’t taken these steps towards him and made that commitment is not part of the biblical meaning of Church. And in my experience many church-goers and even clergy fall outside these criteria.

None of the traditional denominations can lay claim to being the one true Church to do so is heretical.
 

Alfredthefifth

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Test the Truth and Validity of the Church? The pillar and foundation of the Truth?

You have that backwards brother, one has to test the validity of teachers by what the Church teaches.

'for we have the mind of Christ' is very much a communal we..

Pax et Bonum

Paul, arguably the man that taught more early Christians than anyone.
Taught "Test EVEN me!"

Because again

The plee "this is what the teachers taught is not going to heard on judgment day!"

The word gives ALL the ability to test and discern through the spirit and in the word what is right.

By your argument the Pharisees were right and Jesus and the disciples have been wrong all along.

The Church's only authority to teach is the BIBLE! Teaching outside of this is not in the purview of the teachers.

So yes test the teachers! It is your soul in the balance. And false teachers are ravenous lions waiting to devour it!

FOR IT IS GRACE THROUGH FAITH BOTH GIFTS OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast.
Put this on the scale to weigh teachers at the very least!

Alfredthefifth
 
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Pearl

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AMEN.
I WISH I COULD POST YOU A BIG GOLD STAR OR A TROPHY ,PEARL
AMEN.
:Shining:
We can easily forget that we are among a strange crew on this site, many of whom believe things that are unbiblical. This is why there is so much dissension and arguments as it isn't always easy to tell the wholesome wheat from the choking tares.
 

L.A.M.B.

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:Zek::sogood::Bestest:
Yeah thanks I forget we have some do-lollies......lol
 
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Philip James

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The Church's only authority to teach is the BIBLE! Teaching outside of this is not in the purview of the teachers.

The Church was teachinh and spreading the Gospel begore one stroke of the NT was penned.

Scripture points to the Church having authority not johnny come lately weilding our sacred texts..

By your argument the Pharisees were right and Jesus and the disciples have been wrong all along.

Did you miss the part where He told his disciples, 'do what they say because they sit in Moses' seat'..

Or the part where care for the vineyard would be taken from them and given to others..

Stop following the traditions of men, and come to the Feast!

Pax et Bonum
 

Alfredthefifth

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@Philip James

Luther,

Wrote 95 points were the "leaders," men, mankind had drifted not only outside the scope of the, Bible, Gods Word, But that to continue down that road is folly.

If everyone cannot use scriptures to test the leaders. Then church is a fools folly, as false teaching goes unchallenged!

Leaders have a desire to lead, how to test that someone has a true heart is leading true is has to be tested. The Bible gives the least of believers the ability to test. Jesus taught to test the leaders, Paul teaches test the leaders yes test even him.

There are many false churches today, some are closer to true then THE CHURCH of Luther's day. Failing to or not being allowed to question, allowed to test the leader or leader, is the foundation of these false churches.


Alfredthefifth
 

Philip James

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. Failing to or not being allowed to question, allowed to test the leader or leader

Who said you cant test the leader? If je is teaching heresy report him to your bishop, bring a charge against him in the competant eccliasial court, pray for him!!

But leave the community of the apostles? Abandon your brothers and sisters to the 'alleged' wolf?

Leave the Table of the Lord?

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

All are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum
 

theefaith

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@Philip James

Luther,

Wrote 95 points were the "leaders," men, mankind had drifted not only outside the scope of the, Bible, Gods Word, But that to continue down that road is folly.

If everyone cannot use scriptures to test the leaders. Then church is a fools folly, as false teaching goes unchallenged!

Leaders have a desire to lead, how to test that someone has a true heart is leading true is has to be tested. The Bible gives the least of believers the ability to test. Jesus taught to test the leaders, Paul teaches test the leaders yes test even him.

There are many false churches today, some are closer to true then THE CHURCH of Luther's day. Failing to or not being allowed to question, allowed to test the leader or leader, is the foundation of these false churches.


Alfredthefifth

there were no selling of indulgences

More fundamentalist propaganda
Accusations

Indulgences

1st of all these are based on misunderstandings and accusations

Salvation has nothing to do with indulgences nor the forgiveness of sin!

Salvation is God’s mercy to us thru His church by grace thru the sacraments!

An indulgence is a merit of Jesus Christ thru his blood passion and death! Jn 1:16 & 1:29

Cannot sell indulgences
There were indulgences granted to those who supported the building of saint peters, not selling, (donations) but if you chose to make a donation you could get an indulgence, but there were and are many other ways to get them without making a donation! Not a requirement

You did something and got a favorable response, like buying a dozen dognuts and get one free, they may accuse you cannot selling 13 but you actually only sold 12 and gave one free.

Salvation is of grace with mercy and the forgiveness of sins, but the temporal punishment due to sin Christ did not take away, just like he did not take away our sin nature and restore up to the state of innocence in the garden.

Example: a child breaks a window with his baseball, his father forgives him totally, but the child work and earn money to pay for the window, and we must pray, fast, alms, penance, carry our cross and practice Christian virtues to expiate the temporal punishment due to our sins, God provides for everything in His goodness and gives us ample means to do this, and it purifies our souls in this life or if not he also provides a means of purification in the next.

And we can pray for and do penance and gain indulgences for those being purified since they are in the communion of saints like us and those already perfected in heaven!

An indulgence can only be applied to the punishment due for sins already forgiven!
From Christ’s merits! Jn 1:16-17