Once OSAS Always OSAS

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Wynona

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I would think to say we are in a race would necessarily mean we had not finished the race…
If we continue to trust Him and grow in that trust, are we at risk of not finishing? Or is your fear that our trust might not grow?

If all we do is trust in our minds but don't run, we won't finish. Its not automatic that we finish the race.
 

stunnedbygrace

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If all we do is trust in our minds but don't run, we won't finish. Its not automatic that we finish the race.

You have a knot here. How does one trust Him and yet not be running the race of trust? I know falling down in the race is leaving trust in Him to worry or leaving trust in Him to put confidence in our working. What do YOU think to stumble in your race of trust means?
 

Wynona

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Amen, as far as sanctification goes. you got it.

as for justification. We can run and run until we die. we will fall short.

Thats why justification is of grace through faith, a gift of God. not of works.


I agree with most of this. When you say works, what exactly do you mean?

I agree that we aren't justified by the law of Moses. But works of righteousness by faith are the evidence of real faith. By the Spirit we put to death the deeds of the body.

I agree that we can fall short and have fallen in the past. I dont agree that we will fall short in Christ. It's if we sin, not when.

We should have a similar attitude to this in Acts 24:16

16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.

Is striving to have a conscience without offense works-based salvation? Or is it our reasonable service (Romans 12:1)?

If we sin, we confess it, and turn right back around. If we get to the point where we say I will never sin again ever, thats okay but it's really more about right now and today.

Like, Lord, help me not to sin today. Or what is the next right thing to do? The Bible says let tomorrow worry about itself.

I believe that we have to deal with each day, each temptation, each moment as it comes.


 

Wynona

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You have a knot here. How does one trust Him and yet not be running the race of trust? I know falling down in the race is leaving trust in Him to worry or leaving trust in Him to put confidence in our working. What do YOU think to stumble in your race of trust means?

Race of trust is a phrase you said. I believe we race to win salvation of our souls. I believe that faith in Jesius is how we enter the race. But to enter a race is not to complete it. To complete the race is to endure to the end. Jesus did His part. He got us in the race. We trust that if we run, we will win the prize.

But we must run. If by trusting in God, you mean that our faith in Him causes us to run the race, then I agree. What I'm contending against is the idea that we can trust God and at the same time not run. If were not running by obeying Jesus, then we aren't trusting in God.

If we sin and fail to trust God at a particular moment, we confess that, and repent believing that no, we don't have to keep doing the same sins over and over again but that God will make a way of escape through each temptation as it comes.

I believe God speaks in terms of right now and today. This day, we need daily bread. Today, as each moment or temptation passes, we can rely on God to overcome sin. Tomorrow will worry about itself.

But if you keep moving and obeying, you keep doing good, you can't obey and sin at the same time. Youll eventually become a slave of righteousness. Thats why the Bible says over and over again to stop sinning. Because it's possible and God loves us enough to not want us to be slaves of sin.
 

robert derrick

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So for those who think vanity like they DON'T SIN ANYMORE, even as a believer on Jesus Christ, those might want to be careful about claiming they can't have future sin, .
True. Not sinning now, is not the same as making boasts of will not sin anymore, because they cannot sin in future.

We can only fight the good fight now, and that is all we should be doing. Tomorrow will take care for itself.

So long as we are in mortal flesh with unperfected minds, we certainly will be tempted with unrighteous thinking, even as Jesus was, but while walking as He walked, we do not fulfill the lust of the world.

I am not sinning now, is by grace. Saying we have no temptation of sin to resist in the future, is the self-deception of perfectionists, who act like the resurrection is already past.

Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

The righteous in Christ Jesus do not boast of being righteous, even as He did not, but only do His righteousness by grace, even as He did.

And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

But they certainly don't have to say they have sin in their hearts and are lusting to sin.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Race of trust is a phrase you said. I believe we race to win salvation of our souls. I believe that faith in Jesius is how we enter the race. But to enter a race is not to complete it. To complete the race is to endure to the end. Jesus did His part. He got us in the race. We trust that if we run, we will win the prize.

But we must run. If by trusting in God, you mean that our faith in Him causes us to run the race, then I agree. What I'm contending against is the idea that we can trust God and at the same time not run. If were not running by obeying Jesus, then we aren't trusting in God.

If we sin and fail to trust God at a particular moment, we confess that, and repent believing that no, we don't have to keep doing the same sins over and over again but that God will make a way of escape through each temptation as it comes.

I believe God speaks in terms of right now and today. This day, we need daily bread. Today, as each moment or temptation passes, we can rely on God to overcome sin. Tomorrow will worry about itself.

But if you keep moving and obeying, you keep doing good, you can't obey and sin at the same time. Youll eventually become a slave of righteousness. Thats why the Bible says over and over again to stop sinning. Because it's possible and God loves us enough to not want us to be slaves of sin.

I can’t seem to find a way to connect to what you say. I think that you think any victories you’ve had have been somewhat through your own strength rather than through trusting in Jesus…I went through that for a while too.
 

stunnedbygrace

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What verses do you find it in?

7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

gal 5:7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth?

31 but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.

1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, (of great trust) let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,
 

Eternally Grateful

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I agree with most of this. When you say works, what exactly do you mean?

I agree that we aren't justified by the law of Moses. But works of righteousness by faith are the evidence of real faith. By the Spirit we put to death the deeds of the body.


I think paul said it best.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, But by HIS MERCY. he saved us by the washing and renewal of the HS

If we are trying to wash ourselves by works. we will fail

I agree that we can fall short and have fallen in the past. I dont agree that we will fall short in Christ. It's if we sin, not when.
You wont fall short in Christ.

The issue is, You do not stay in christ 24/7 there are circumstances in your life where you will chose self.. and in doing so. that is sin..

We should have a similar attitude to this in Acts 24:16

16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.

Is striving to have a conscience without offense works-based salvation? Or is it our reasonable service (Romans 12:1)?
We do that because we are saved, if we are doing it to earn or maintain salvation. then yes that is a works based salvation.
If we sin, we confess it, and turn right back around. If we get to the point where we say I will never sin again ever, thats okay but it's really more about right now and today.
Many have said they will not do it again, and end up falling right back into the same sin. And then fall into judging themselves. because they failed

We should STRIVE to live for Christ. but we should never make a promise we can;t keep. Only God can keep that promise. We will not be like that until we see him face to face. until then we are always in danger of falling

Like, Lord, help me not to sin today. Or what is the next right thing to do? The Bible says let tomorrow worry about itself.

I believe that we have to deal with each day, each temptation, each moment as it comes.
with this I agree with you. Amen.

but there are some who will say if You trusted in Christ you would never have to worry. Because you can't sin. They are the dangerous ones, to themselves and others.
 

Wynona

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I can’t seem to find a way to connect to what you say. I think that you think any victories you’ve had have been somewhat through your own strength rather than through trusting in Jesus…I went through that for a while too.

I hope Im explaining myself clearly but I have room to grow in that.

The Bible never says when it comes to salvation that you either trust fully in Jesus and are correct or trust in yourself and are incorrect.

We partner with God. He provides us a way of escape through temptation, but we have to do the escaping. Its not that God does everything and we do nothing. Its not that we do everything and God does nothing.

I think I got the victory by partnering with the Holy Spirit.

But its really not about what I think. The Scriptures give understanding. You don't find in the Scriptures that its zero self effort. Effort isn't the bad thing here.
 

Wynona

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We do that because we are saved, if we are doing it to earn or maintain salvation. then yes that is a works based salvation.

Ive heard this said a lot. And I get why people say it. But a lot of what we hear doesn't line up with the Bible.

James 2:24

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.



but there are some who will say if You trusted in Christ you would never have to worry. Because you can't sin. They are the dangerous ones, to themselves and others.

Maybe. Unless they are simply quoting 1 John 1:9

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
 

BarneyFife

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This is so unfortunate.

The disconnect and tension between title ("justification") and fitness ("sanctification") for Heaven will never be solved without integrating the Gospel into something more than a philosophical curiosity.

The solution to the puzzle is Christ Himself. Christ and Him crucified.

He is largely a stranger here, as He is in so many other Christian gatherings.

Revival is needed everywhere.

Threads that are started about the personality and character of Jesus garner little or no attention.

Frankly, it's getting harder and harder for me to endure.

The closer I draw to Him, the less I find to contribute here.

I realize this could illicit much resentment.


I'm not targeting anyone.

I go to church and talk about Jesus during the Bible study hour and I get some silence and blank stares at times, but for the most part, people are happy to hear about Him, and more than a few "Amens" are heard.

I think I've said enough, except:

I love Jesus. He is everything to me.

I don't love Him as much for the things He does for me as I do for Who He is to me.

I want to be with Him always. I want to lay my head in His bosom like John did. He's much taller than me by now so that will be easy.

I'd really like to see Him come back soon. I'm tired of the long-distance love affair.

I want to walk hand-in-hand with Him on the streets of the 140,625 square mile city He's built for us.

I want to listen to Him sing and learn how to dance like David did before Him.

It's sad that we Christians are the ones who hurt Him most.

And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

.
.
 

Wynona

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Do you think by your hard effort, you can stop murdering in your mind and heart?

If I partner with the Holy Spirit, yes. I remember murdering my mother in law in my heart. Guilty back then for sure. But I need not continue in that. Jesus says we must love one another. Its not optional.

Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness Titus 2:11-12.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Ive heard this said a lot. And I get why people say it. But a lot of what we hear doesn't line up with the Bible.

James 2:24

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

read james 2. What is james saying

"what does it prophet a man if he CLAIMS to have faith but HAS NO WORK. can faith save him also?

James is not talkin gto people who had true saving faith. He is talking to hearers of the word, not doers.. He askes the simple question.

He also says the truth, if they have no work (zero zip nada) your faith is dead..

so his answer is no.

A claim faith will never save you

remember, Paul said we are saved by grace through faith, not work. lest anyone should be puffed up..

but he followed that saying we are his workmanship created in Christ fore good works.

James is literally saying, if you claim to have the faith Paul spoke of. But you do not show the works Paul said you will have, you have no true faith. It is dead. YOu have mere believe, no one is saved by mere belief.

But remember, Work is a byproduct of faith. But is not the requirement of salvation. Paul made that clear..



Maybe. Unless they are simply quoting 1 John 1:9

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 John 1: 9 states that if we live like the world in habitual sin, we have never seen God.

It does not say we will never sin again. That is a common misrepresentation based on a flawed english translation

If you claim you are without sin. You are in danger, and you can not grow in christ. because you have already made it. Why rin the race. you have arrived.

I hope you see the flaw in sinless perfection and running a race..
 

Wynona

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But remember, Work is a byproduct of faith. But is not the requirement of salvation. Paul made that clear..

True

I hope you see the flaw in sinless perfection and running a race..

It depends on what you mean. Running a race is biblical. Its what we are called to do. We will always have imperfect thoughts coming at us. But just having a bad thought enter your mind isn't sin. You take it captive and make it obedient to Christ. But I believe we are to strive to stop sinning, not to earn our initial salvation, but as our reasonable service.

Does that mean we'll never sin again? Is that not the goal? But even if its not, each day, each moment, we crucify the flesh in that moment. What were doing now is what matters.
 

Eternally Grateful

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True



It depends on what you mean. Running a race is biblical. Its what we are called to do. We will always have imperfect thoughts coming at us. But just having a bad thought enter your mind isn't sin. You take it captive and make it obedient to Christ. But I believe we are to strive to stop sinning, not to earn our initial salvation, but as our reasonable service.

Does that mean we'll never sin again? Is that not the goal? But even if its not, each day, each moment, we crucify the flesh in that moment. What were doing now is what matters.

If you claim to be sinless. and your running the race to be sinless. that sort of contradicts itself does it not?

I run the race knowing I have not arrived. and I beg god to show me my sins.. If I think I am sinless. I would never ask God. because I would deny I have any sin..
 

Wynona

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If you claim to be sinless. and your running the race to be sinless. that sort of contradicts itself does it not?

I run the race knowing I have not arrived. and I beg god to show me my sins.. If I think I am sinless. I would never ask God. because I would deny I have any sin..

Do you mean 1 John 1:8?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

No one should claim that we have never sinned. But consider this. Jesus' blood is a propitiation for our past sins.



Romans 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

What 1 John 1:8 isn't saying is that theres sin in us at all times. Because a lot of that book is about not sinning.


1 John 2:1

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

I don't believe we sin just by existing. If our conscience is clear and were not violating the law of Christ, then were good.



 

Eternally Grateful

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Do you mean 1 John 1:8?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

No one should claim that we have never sinned. But consider this. Jesus' blood is a propitiation for our past sins.


1 John 1: 8 is in present tense (say we HAVE no sin) not past tense (have never sinned)


Romans 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
This is talking about OT sins, Sins before the cross. God had to pass over them even though the penalty for sin was not yet paid.

What 1 John 1:8 isn't saying is that theres sin in us at all times. Because a lot of that book is about not sinning.
Your right, It is just telling us if we claim to be sinless. we are deceived. John included himself in that statement
1 John 2:1

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

I don't believe we sin just by existing. If our conscience is clear and were not violating the law of Christ, then were good.
I do not believe we sin by just existing either. I never heard of that term until today. not sure where it comes from..

I believe we sin every time we chose to serve self and not God. at that moment we are in the flesh, not in the spirit. and we are in a state of sin until we turn and again put the needs of others first.