The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

Davy · Aug 8, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
It is also my understanding the Premill was dominant early on in Church history, and that Amlll was "Johnny Come Lately." The allegorical system that took root in the Church, whether through Gnosticism, Judaism, or other, began to lead Christians into an allegorization of the Millennial Period. Failure to see the restoration of Israel led them to believe that Israel allegorized the Church, which is Replacement Theology. And it took hold for centuries, which is why I don't insult the Amill position--it is thoroughly entrenched in Christian history.

But to argue that Premill didn't provide detail on the Millennial Age is likely the product of having a lack of information on the subject. It is highly speculative.

And there is little need to sound off on Satan, sin, and evil in the Millennial Age when the biblical idea is Christ's Kingdom, and not the short rebellion that takes place at the end of this period. In my view, you're asking all the wrong questions. Why, for example, is there not a lot of material in the first 150 years of the Church debunking Premill? Why in the first 150 years don't we have a lot of Amill opposition to the idea of a literal Millennium?

Obviously, if the heretic Cerinthus painted a false view of the Millennium, then Christians wouldn't want any part of such false speculation. Cerinthus in his belief in a return of the Jewish legal system was apparently a legalist. But in his materialism he seems like a Hedonist, for whom the material world has less spiritual significance and can be indulged in freely in the Millennial period.

That's historically what happened in Christian history, especially with the establishing of the western Christian nations when The Gospel was received on huge scales. The Church begin to think by the spread of Christianity and power among nations, that the millennial reign of Jesus Christ must then have begun, which is why they wrongly began thinking of the Kingdom established here now on earth, which it has only in Spirit, and not literally yet. But with the proof of western nations turning from pagan idols to a majority in the Christian Faith, they began to believe it showed His Kingdom had come.

And even to this day, there are some Christian denominations that treat 'today' as Christ's Kingdom having come, actually pointing to His literal Kingdom, when His Kingdom today is still only in Spirit until Jesus actually physically returns. And even with some of those, they push the false idea that Jesus doesn't need to physically return.

What this is actually about is a HINGE POINT...

The hinge point is this; a false-Messiah is to come first prior to Lord Jesus' future coming. Lucifer's workers are still busy today setting up a one-world beast kingdom prophesied by Christ through His Apostle John in Revelation 13. They plan to set Lucifer upon mount zion in today's Jerusalem as king of the world, in place of Jesus Christ. That is who is behind the deniers of Christ's future literal return, and His future literal Kingdom.

So who will folks believe on as the real... KING of kings, and LORD of lords? That's the hinge point many are not seeing with the false Amillennial movement. Nor are those on a false Pre-trib Rapture theory seeing that hinge point either.

WPM · Aug 8, 2022

Davy said:
That's historically what happened in Christian history, especially with the establishing of the western Christian nations when The Gospel was received on huge scales. The Church begin to think by the spread of Christianity and power among nations, that the millennial reign of Jesus Christ must then have begun, which is why they wrongly began thinking of the Kingdom established here now on earth, which it has only in Spirit, and not literally yet. But with the proof of western nations turning from pagan idols to a majority in the Christian Faith, they began to believe it showed His Kingdom had come.

And even to this day, there are some Christian denominations that treat 'today' as Christ's Kingdom having come, actually pointing to His literal Kingdom, when His Kingdom today is still only in Spirit until Jesus actually physically returns. And even with some of those, they push the false idea that Jesus doesn't need to physically return.

What this is actually about is a HINGE POINT...

The hinge point is this; a false-Messiah is to come first prior to Lord Jesus' future coming. Lucifer's workers are still busy today setting up a one-world beast kingdom prophesied by Christ through His Apostle John in Revelation 13. They plan to set Lucifer upon mount zion in today's Jerusalem as king of the world, in place of Jesus Christ. That is who is behind the deniers of Christ's future literal return, and His future literal Kingdom.

So who will folks believe on as the real... KING of kings, and LORD of lords? That's the hinge point many are not seeing with the false Amillennial movement. Nor are those on a false Pre-trib Rapture theory seeing that hinge point either.

It's time to leave the old covenant and enter into the new covenant. The king has already introduced His kingdom to planet earth. Wherever you find the king, you find the kingdom. Christ ushered in the kingdom of God when He came. Jesus said in Matthew 11:12, “from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth (biazo) violence, and the (biastes) violent take it by force.”

Jesus said, in Luke 16:16, “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man (biazo) presseth into it.”

We should immediately note: for men to be able to press into the kingdom and for it to suffer violence it must already exist. The Greek word biazo here means to force, to crowd oneself into, or to seize. The kingdom of God is shown here to be a present reality that the righteous enter upon salvation. This has been the case since John the Baptist. The spiritual kingdom Christ brought was very-much alive and active from the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.

Sadly, the overwhelming majority of Jews missed their promised Messiah when He came. He just didn’t fit their expectation of who and what the Messiah was to be. Also, they had an erroneous political racial perception of what the kingdom was. They had a carnal earthly view of Messiah and His kingdom. They believed that the first thing He would do was subjugate all national Israel’s enemies, starting with the Romans. When Christ appeared at His first advent, the Jews imagined He would reinstate the now defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the physical nation, restoring their ancient borders. The only problem was: they had a defective hyper-literalist understanding of Old Testament prophesies and a misconception of how the kingdom would look.

Matthew 3:1-2 records, “In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (or eengiken or ‘is made near’ or ‘approaches’).”

Matthew 4:12, 17 records, “when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee…From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (or eengiken).”

Mark 1:14-15 records, “Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand (or eengiken).”

Jesus told the disciples as the kingdom advances, “And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand (or eengiken)” (Matthew 10:7).

The kingdom of God exists wherever the king – the Lord Jesus Christ – exercises His spiritual jurisdiction. His kingdom embodies all those who possess the indwelling Holy Spirit – those who are born-again of the Spirit of God. Christ’s kingdom is therefore found wherever there are citizens of that Kingdom.

In John 3:3 Jesus declared: “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

And in John 3:5 He says, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

When someone gets saved they enter into the kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises spiritual control. This kingship refers to the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness are pre-eminent.

We experience the kingdom of God through supernatural birth from above where we are supernaturally changed from a child of darkness to a child of God. Be assured, we cannot change ourselves. It must be a new birth.

One can only “see” and “enter” the kingdom of God by grace through faith. None of us can earn it. None of us deserve it. Before you pat yourself on the back, remember even faith is a gift from God.

Randy Kluth · Aug 8, 2022

covenantee said:
No. If so, 2 Peter 3:10 would appear in category 1, 3, or 5.

It doesn't. It appears in category 4a.

Earth. Not land.

Don't agree. "Earth" and "land" are synonyms. It doesn't matter what category you put "earth" in.

Truth7t7 · Aug 8, 2022

Davy said:
They plan to set Lucifer upon mount zion in today's Jerusalem as king of the world, in place of Jesus Christ. That is who is behind the deniers of Christ's future literal return, and His future literal Kingdom.

So who will folks believe on as the real... KING of kings, and LORD of lords? That's the hinge point many are not seeing with the false Amillennial movement. Nor are those on a false Pre-trib Rapture theory seeing that hinge point either.

Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Randy Kluth · Aug 8, 2022

Davy said:
That's historically what happened in Christian history, especially with the establishing of the western Christian nations when The Gospel was received on huge scales. The Church begin to think by the spread of Christianity and power among nations, that the millennial reign of Jesus Christ must then have begun, which is why they wrongly began thinking of the Kingdom established here now on earth, which it has only in Spirit, and not literally yet. But with the proof of western nations turning from pagan idols to a majority in the Christian Faith, they began to believe it showed His Kingdom had come.

And even to this day, there are some Christian denominations that treat 'today' as Christ's Kingdom having come, actually pointing to His literal Kingdom, when His Kingdom today is still only in Spirit until Jesus actually physically returns. And even with some of those, they push the false idea that Jesus doesn't need to physically return.

What this is actually about is a HINGE POINT...

The hinge point is this; a false-Messiah is to come first prior to Lord Jesus' future coming. Lucifer's workers are still busy today setting up a one-world beast kingdom prophesied by Christ through His Apostle John in Revelation 13. They plan to set Lucifer upon mount zion in today's Jerusalem as king of the world, in place of Jesus Christ. That is who is behind the deniers of Christ's future literal return, and His future literal Kingdom.

So who will folks believe on as the real... KING of kings, and LORD of lords? That's the hinge point many are not seeing with the false Amillennial movement. Nor are those on a false Pre-trib Rapture theory seeing that hinge point either.

I have a view that is unlikely to find 100% agreement with everybody. However, I do agree with your Premill and antagonism towards Pretrib, if I understand you correctly? For your interest I'll briefly outline my views--again, you're not likely to agree with all of it. But we do agree on some very important points, such as our need to not look for an escape, but rather, to watch out for Antichristian deception. That is precisely what we're challenged to do in Scriptures!

My view is that temporal forms of God's Kingdom do appear on earth, such as when in the OT era Israel had a Davidic theocracy, of sorts. This was, as I say, a temporal form of God's Kingdom, and certainly not the eschatological Kingdom that Christ said was coming.

Even in the NT era, I do believe that Christian kingdoms also portray this temporal form of God's Kingdom. Again, this is *not* the eschatological Kingdom, which the OT Prophets said would bring final salvation to Israel.

I do believe Israel, as a nation, will be converted to Christianity. This is not 100% Christianity among individuals, but 100% national salvation from their enemies, and a complete conversion of the *State* to Christian standards.

On the other hand, this is not, I believe, to be partiality towards Israel by God, nor a restoration of legal forms that existed under the Law. Israel is given prominence in Scriptures because in the OT Israel was the only nation under covenant with God, and most information was addressed strictly to them. And prophecy made use of OT legal forms of worship not to establish that it will remain static and permanent in the final Kingdom, but only because at that time that form of worship was still in use.

So the coming eschatological Kingdom will see the fulfillment of all Christian nations, including Israel. And I don't see Israel being dominant among them, but only one of many. Nor do I accept any OT legal forms of worship in the coming Kingdom, whether for Israel or for any other nation.

Timtofly · Aug 8, 2022

The only founding father of modern day pre-mill is John the author of the book of Revelation.

In one argument you claim modern day pre-mill only base their eschatology on Revelation 20. Then you contradict that argument by stating a few heretics claim a restoration of mount Sinai Law. So which is it? John the author of Revelation 20 or restoring the Law of Mount Sinai?

The only modern groups that I am aware of that promote future carnality are the heretical modern day Mormons and Muslims.

There are a minority of modern pre-mills who speak out against these modern heretical groups. Should you not be accusing them, the Muslims and Mormons, instead of those posters who understand proper pre-mill eschatology?

Is this the zionism you are against:

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads."

Is this thread against John a founding father of pre-mill thought? Have you identified those alive today who even know of these ancient heretics? If no one knows who they are, much less what they taught, how can these heretics be the founding fathers of modern eschatology?

covenantee · Aug 8, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
Don't agree. "Earth" and "land" are synonyms. It doesn't matter what category you put "earth" in.

They're not synonyms in the Thayer/Strong definitions, otherwise category 4, in which 2 Peter 3:10 appears, would have included "land", as do categories 1,3, and 5.

Notice: 4. the earth as a whole

The word "land" appears nowhere in category 4.

Truth7t7 · Aug 8, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
this is *not* the eschatological Kingdom, which the OT Prophets said would bring final salvation to Israel.

I do believe Israel, as a nation, will be converted to Christianity. This is not 100% Christianity among individuals, but 100% national salvation from their enemies, and a complete conversion of the *State* to Christian standards.

On the other hand, this is not, I believe, to be partiality towards Israel by God, nor a restoration of legal forms that existed under the Law. Israel is given prominence in Scriptures because in the OT Israel was the only nation under covenant with God, and most information was addressed strictly to them. And prophecy made use of OT legal forms of worship not to establish that it will remain static and permanent in the final Kingdom, but only because at that time that form of worship was still in use.

So the coming eschatological Kingdom will see the fulfillment of all Christian nations, including Israel. And I don't see Israel being dominant among them, but only one of many. Nor do I accept any OT legal forms of worship in the coming Kingdom, whether for Israel or for any other nation.

"Randy's Zionism"

You mix the word "Salvation" and attach it to a "Kingdom" on earth, then you define the word "Salvation" being from enemies, and "Conversion" now equals "Christian Standards"?

Dual Covenant Theology, "The Jewish Hope" "A Millennial Kingdom" "Israel Restored"!

Randy your "Zionist" claims are "Laughable" and that's a big understatement

Acts 4:12KJV
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Jane_Doe22 · Aug 8, 2022

Timtofly said:
The only founding father of modern day pre-mill is John the author of the book of Revelation.

In one argument you claim modern day pre-mill only base their eschatology on Revelation 20. Then you contradict that argument by stating a few heretics claim a restoration of mount Sinai Law. So which is it? John the author of Revelation 20 or restoring the Law of Mount Sinai?

The only modern groups that I am aware of that promote future carnality are the heretical modern day Mormons and Muslims.

There are a minority of modern pre-mills who speak out against these modern heretical groups. Should you not be accusing them, the Muslims and Mormons, instead of those posters who understand proper pre-mill eschatology?

Is this the zionism you are against:

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads."

Is this thread against John a founding father of pre-mill thought? Have you identified those alive today who even know of these ancient heretics? If no one knows who they are, much less what they taught, how can these heretics be the founding fathers of modern eschatology?

Actual “Mormon” here. What exactly are you accusing me of ? I have not been paying attention to this thread.

L.A.M.B. · Aug 8, 2022

It is time to put Paul M in with his other ignored buddies.

Lol hey I have a lot less useless clutter taking up my forum this way.

Truth7t7 · Aug 8, 2022

L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d said:
It is time to put Paul M in with his other ignored buddies.

Lol hey I have a lot less useless clutter taking up my forum this way.

Looks like Paul is going to lose sleep tonight, I hope he won't have to seek professional counseling over this one?

L.A.M.B. · Aug 8, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
Looks like Paul is going to lose sleep tonight, I hope he won't have to seek professional counseling over this one?

Lol.
Doubt it, the kind that thinks everyone is wrong but them just walk away self satisfied....." I set them straight." is that kinds attitude.

Eternally Grateful · Aug 8, 2022

L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d said:
Lol.
Doubt it, the kind that thinks everyone is wrong but them just walk away self satisfied....." I set them straight." is that kinds attitude.

its obvious he is on a battle to try to tear down everyone who disagrees with him. He openes thread after thread after thread...seems to be commin in the OSAS debate and millennial debates.. I am surprised they are aloud to do this.. seems to detract from the chatroom. its like how many threads do we need on the same subject?

L.A.M.B. · Aug 8, 2022

Eternally Grateful said:
its obvious he is on a battle to try to tear down everyone who disagrees with him. He openes thread after thread after thread...seems to be commin in the OSAS debate and millennial debates.. I am surprised they are aloud to do this.. seems to detract from the chatroom. its like how many threads do we need on the same subject?

Some topics have been beaten to death so badly the horse is NOW GLUE!

I almost get a bad taste in my mouth when I read the line up for I read the OP and it's poster.

Eternally Grateful · Aug 8, 2022

L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d said:
Some topics have been beaten to death so badly the horse is NOW GLUE!

I almost get a bad taste in my mouth when I read the line up for I read the OP and it's poster.

sad part is they get their followers. and people keep feeding them.

I see these threads and hope no one replies.. But my hope is in vein,,lol

Randy Kluth · Aug 8, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
"Randy's Zionism"

You mix the word "Salvation" and attach it to a "Kingdom" on earth, then you define the word "Salvation" being from enemies, and "Conversion" now equals "Christian Standards"?

Yes, I'll wear that like a "badge of honor," Truth, because these concepts are thoroughly biblical. God promised Israel under the Old Covenant that they will be saved from their enemies. And under the New Covenant they are promised Final Deliverance from their enemies. This is all over the OT Prophets, and so I'm not ashamed for believing in it.

Furthermore, Israel was made to be a temporary form of God's Kingdom on earth while they were under the Law. And God made Gentile nations a temporary form of God's Kingdom on earth as well. Jesus said where "2 or more of you are gathered, there am I in the midst." How much more so is God in our midst when our entire nation embraces the Christian way!

L.A.M.B. · Aug 8, 2022

Eternally Grateful said:
sad part is they get their followers. and people keep feeding them.

I see these threads and hope no one replies.. But my hope is in vein,,lol

Yes but also ppl read these forums just to seek.
I just pray the Holy Spirit blinds seekers and babes to words that are heresies that are written down.

Randy Kluth · Aug 8, 2022

covenantee said:
They're not synonyms in the Thayer/Strong definitions, otherwise category 4, in which 2 Peter 3:10 appears, would have included "land", as do categories 1,3, and 5.

Notice: 4. the earth as a whole

The word "land" appears nowhere in category 4.

Thayer's equates "earth" and "land" apart from the applications. NASB and Strong's indicate the same. Thayer's applies earth as "land" in *all* of his categories.

Eternally Grateful · Aug 8, 2022

amen and amen sis

L.A.M.B. · Aug 8, 2022

The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

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