Was Jesus/Yeshua born with a Sin Nature?

MatthewG · Aug 8, 2022

From the Calvinist perspective: everything is predetermined. Everyone on earth is going to hell in a hand basket and only Jesus atoned for a limited group of people.

Thus, there is no free will.

So that is just something to put in this picture too, my friends.

You’re right though our focus needs to be on Yeshua who brings life to the believers, and that because of Him we are given the Holy Spirit to live by, what has been suggested through out the subject of this thread is for people to simply think and question what they have been taught.

Prayer and supplications and talking with your Father and asking Him questions will also help lead to some answers even if they may be conjectured.

God is love. He has always been loving, and even through out the Old Testament he has been loving and everything he had done was justified; due to the Nation of Israel being under the law, and the promise to Abraham to bring forth a nation.

So please my only encouragement is this “Sovereign” God people believe in that God can do anything he wants like a king on earth is a lie… a damnable heresy.

God is good, and God is love, he gave you (whoever may read this) a choice to include him your life or not, and He gave His Son on your and (the worlds) behalf so that you through faith can be made right with God, because of everything that He (Yeshua Christ) had done so that you could be set free from the bondage of sin and death. And have life (not according to the confidence of your own flesh), but because of being birthed as a new son or daughter to God by the (Spirit).

It is all in faith, if God exist He desires to help you by the spirit, no matter how tough life may get or how much you wrestle with your own flesh and Soul (mind/will/emotions) He will help you by the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ.

Get into that bible read and check out everything, learn and May all of us grow in spirit just as Jesus Christ did, he grew in spirit.

Luke 2:40
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Heart2Soul · Aug 8, 2022

MatthewG said:
Was Jesus/Yeshua born with a Sin Nature?

Of course He was born with the ability to sin.
When the Holy Spirit led Him into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil...
He was tempted and sinned not....and He was very hungry, famished, and at His weakest moment in the flesh the enemy comes to tempt Him.
Matthew 4 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹ Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
² And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
³ And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
⁴ But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The enemy tends to tempt us the most when we are weak and likely to give in to temptation....that's why we are in a daily battle...the flesh constantly warring against our spirit.

Look at the transfiguration...Matthew 17 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹ And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
² And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
³ And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

The word 'transfiguration' means a change of form or appearance. In this passage Jesus' appearance changes so a glimpse is given of his full heavenly glory, “His face shone like the sun and his clothes became as white as the light”.

Jesus certainly died with a Sin Nature because he took the sins of the world upon himself....and on the cross He cried out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!"
Then He said it is finished...and gave up the spirit.
Sin was all over Him on the cross which is why He felt God had forsaken Him at that time.

I hope I made sense.

Heart2Soul · Aug 8, 2022

This person does an excellent job of explaining why Jesus HAD to be fully man (and suffer as man does) and be fully God.
I hope you can take time to read it.
Why Is the Humanity of Jesus Important?

Lambano · Aug 8, 2022

marks said:
Sin is resident in corrupt human flesh, and so Jesus was the Last Adam, a new Humanity. We are transfered from Adam's humanity to Christ's.

marks said:
In the likeness, yes, but He was NOT born in corrupted sinful flesh. I will oppose that heresy fully.

The 1 John 4:2-3 quote I started with states that Jesus came not just in the "likeness" of human flesh, but actually in the flesh. Could you clarify whether you believe Jesus only "appeared" to have human flesh (the late first-century Docetic heresy), or that Jesus's flesh was not corrupted?

Lambano · Aug 9, 2022

But if the "sin-nature" IS resident in human flesh, Jesus was able to overcome it. Isn't that what we humans are SUPPOSED to do?

"And if you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.” (Genesis 4:7c)

For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin. (Hebrews 4:15)

marks · Aug 9, 2022

Lambano said:
The 1 John 4:2-3 quote I started with states that Jesus came not just in the "likeness" of human flesh, but actually in the flesh. Could you clarify whether you believe Jesus only "appeared" to have human flesh (the late first-century Docetic heresy), or that Jesus's flesh was not corrupted?

Jesus is a Human, in Human flesh, but not from the line of Adam.

The first Adam was of the earth, earthy, the Last Adam is the Lord of heaven. We all came from dust, Jesus did not. But He is human, a new humanity. In Adam all die. In Christ all are made alive. When you are born again, you move from the line of Adam to be "in Christ", made alive.

The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, not the flesh of the line of Adam, but in the likeness of that flesh. Not corrupted by sin, and the Man being the Lord of heaven Himself.

Much love!

Jim B · Aug 9, 2022

MatthewG said:
I’m not suggesting anything. Other than Jesus had a sin nature just like any other human being. Otherwise he couldn’t be tempted, and if he couldn’t be tempted that in itself is going against scriptures, @marks.

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

Jesus did not have a sin nature. He was born sinless and continued that way until (and past) His death.

2 Corinthians 5:21, "God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God." NET
"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." NIV

Webers_Home · Aug 9, 2022

.

Heart2Soul said:
Of course He was born with the ability to sin.

That's Jehovah's Witness theology.

In reality; it was no more possible for Jesus to sin than it is for God to sin.

• Luke 1:35 . . And the angel answered and said to her,"The Holy Spirit will
come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you;
therefore, also, that Holy one who is to be born will be called the Son of
God.

• 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed
remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

By means of some strange procedure about which I haven't a clue, Jesus
Christ was God's offspring; in point of fact, Jesus is God's sole offspring.
(John 1:14, et al)

* Born-again Christians sometimes like to think of themselves as God's
offspring but in reality they are merely his handiwork, i.e. creations. (Eph
2:10, Col 3:10) and have a place in God's home by adoption. (Rom 8:15,
Gal 4:5, Eph 1:5)
_

Lambano · Aug 9, 2022

marks said:
Jesus is a Human, in Human flesh, but not from the line of Adam.

Not sure I agree with that. I go along with the general theological consensus that the Seed of Adam and Eve referenced in Genesis 3:15 who will bruise the Serpent's head is Christ.

MatthewG · Aug 9, 2022

Heart2Soul said:
Of course He was born with the ability to sin.
When the Holy Spirit led Him into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil...
He was tempted and sinned not....and He was very hungry, famished, and at His weakest moment in the flesh the enemy comes to tempt Him.
Matthew 4 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹ Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
² And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
³ And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
⁴ But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The enemy tends to tempt us the most when we are weak and likely to give in to temptation....that's why we are in a daily battle...the flesh constantly warring against our spirit.

Look at the transfiguration...Matthew 17 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹ And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
² And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
³ And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

The word 'transfiguration' means a change of form or appearance. In this passage Jesus' appearance changes so a glimpse is given of his full heavenly glory, “His face shone like the sun and his clothes became as white as the light”.

Jesus certainly died with a Sin Nature because he took the sins of the world upon himself....and on the cross He cried out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!"
Then He said it is finished...and gave up the spirit.
Sin was all over Him on the cross which is why He felt God had forsaken Him at that time.

I hope I made sense.

Heart2soul,

Thank you and also others who have shared.

Today thinking more about Jesus and what he had done, and his birth, perhaps when Jesus was born, that being of the Holy Spirit through Mary. The sin nature that he did have by and through the flesh was inactive, though he was tempted which was very real and true. However, due that inactiveness the only responses he had give the Devil that tempted him, where it had been written accounts which He had learned in and through growing up and learning about the Old Testament Scriptures, he was after all born under the Law.

Because of these thing, and seeing the sin nature as inactive in Jesus by his own flesh because he was being of a seed of Heavenly.

That sin entered him at the cross, and that is why when Jesus had gave up the spirit, sin was able to enter in to that body that He had.

As Paul explains it better than me:

2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

As we can see each time when Jesus had died on the cross he gave up the spirit.

Matthew 27:49-50
But the others said, "Leave Him alone. Let us see if Elijah comes to save Him."

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

Mark 15:37
But Jesus let out a loud cry and breathed His last.

Luke 23:46
Then Jesus called out in a loud voice, "Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit." And when He had said this, He breathed His last.

John 19:29
A jar of sour wine was sitting there. So they soaked a sponge in the wine, put it on a stalk of hyssop, and lifted it to His mouth.

John 19:30
When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished." And bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit.

That body had to die, and it took on sin as the perfect sacrifice as his blood had been pure through-out his lifetime.

Heart2Soul · Aug 9, 2022

Webers_Home said:
.

That's Jehovah's Witness theology.

In reality; it was no more possible for Jesus to sin than it is for God to sin.

• Luke 1:35 . . And the angel answered and said to her,"The Holy Spirit will
come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you;
therefore, also, that Holy one who is to be born will be called the Son of
God.

• 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed
remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

By means of some strange procedure about which I haven't a clue, Jesus
Christ was God's offspring; in point of fact, Jesus is God's sole offspring.
(John 1:14, et al)

* Born-again Christians sometimes like to think of themselves as God's
offspring but in reality they are merely his handiwork, i.e. creations. (Eph
2:10, Col 3:10) and have a place in God's home by adoption. (Rom 8:15,
Gal 4:5, Eph 1:5)
_

I am not affiliated with any denominational doctrine.

Heart2Soul · Aug 9, 2022

MatthewG said:
Heart2soul,

Thank you and also others who have shared.

Today thinking more about Jesus and what he had done, and his birth, perhaps when Jesus was born, that being of the Holy Spirit through Mary. The sin nature that he did have by and through the flesh was inactive, though he was tempted which was very real and true. However, due that inactiveness the only responses he had give the Devil that tempted him, where it had been written accounts which He had learned in and through growing up and learning about the Old Testament Scriptures, he was after all born under the Law.

Because of these thing, and seeing the sin nature as inactive in Jesus by his own flesh because he was being of a seed of Heavenly.

That sin entered him at the cross, and that is why when Jesus had gave up the spirit, sin was able to enter in to that body that He had.

As Paul explains it better than me:

2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

As we can see each time when Jesus had died on the cross he gave up the spirit.

Matthew 27:49-50
But the others said, "Leave Him alone. Let us see if Elijah comes to save Him."

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

Mark 15:37
But Jesus let out a loud cry and breathed His last.

Luke 23:46
Then Jesus called out in a loud voice, "Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit." And when He had said this, He breathed His last.

John 19:29
A jar of sour wine was sitting there. So they soaked a sponge in the wine, put it on a stalk of hyssop, and lifted it to His mouth.

John 19:30
When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished." And bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit.

That body had to die, and it took on sin as the perfect sacrifice as his blood had been pure through-out his lifetime.

Well this is how I see it....the only way Jesus could take on the sins of the world was in His flesh. His spirit was pure, Holy and without any corruption.
In order for Jesus to destroy the curse of sin and death, he had to endure sin and death and then be resurrected.
It's very complicated...probably too deep to go into on a thread. A blog would be more appropriate.

Webers_Home · Aug 9, 2022

.
Marks said: "Jesus is a Human, in Human flesh, but not from the line of Adam"

• 1John 4:2-3 . . By this you know the Spirit of God . . Every spirit that
confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit
that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.
And this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard was coming,
and is now already in the world.

The flesh spoken of in that passage is David's flesh.

• Ps 89:3-4 . . I have made a covenant with My chosen, I have sworn to My
servant David: "Your seed I will establish forever"

• Acts 13:22-24 . . He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He
gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after
My own heart, who will do all My will. From this man's seed, according to the
promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior -- Jesus"

• Rom 1:3 . . Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David
according to the flesh.

So then, unless someone can prove beyond even a hint of sensible doubt
that David wasn't biologically related to Adam, then we must concede that
Jesus was biologically related to Adam seeing how Jesus' flesh was produced
by David's flesh.

Now, according to 1John 4:2-3; when folks insist that Adam's flesh wasn't the
source of Jesus' flesh, we have to write them off as under the influence of
the spirit of antichrist; and that is a really unfortunate condition to be in.

• Rom 8:9 . . If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to
Christ.

Sorry Marks, but I sincerely believe you are a bad influence; so for now I
must consign you to the abyss on Ignore.
_

Heart2Soul · Aug 9, 2022

Webers_Home said:
.
Marks said: "Jesus is a Human, in Human flesh, but not from the line of Adam"

• 1John 4:2-3 . . By this you know the Spirit of God . . Every spirit that
confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit
that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.
And this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard was coming,
and is now already in the world.

The flesh spoken of in that passage is David's flesh.

• Ps 89:3-4 . . I have made a covenant with My chosen, I have sworn to My
servant David: "Your seed I will establish forever"

• Acts 13:22-24 . . He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He
gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after
My own heart, who will do all My will. From this man's seed, according to the
promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior -- Jesus"

• Rom 1:3 . . Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David
according to the flesh.

So then, unless someone can prove beyond even a hint of sensible doubt
that David wasn't biologically related to Adam, then we must concede that
Jesus was biologically related to Adam seeing how Jesus' flesh was produced
by David's flesh.

Now, according to 1John 4:2-3; when folks insist that Adam's flesh wasn't the
source of Jesus' flesh, we have to write them off as under the influence of
the spirit of antichrist; and that is a really unfortunate condition to be in.

• Rom 8:9 . . If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to
Christ.

Sorry Marks, but I sincerely believe you are a bad influence; so for now I
must consign you to the abyss on Ignore.
_

Yes, Mary's lineage can be traced all the way back to Adam.

Heart2Soul · Aug 9, 2022

Here is a list of Mary's geneology:

Luke’s genealogy is in the opposite order to the one in Matthew. That is, it starts with Jesus and goes all the way back to Adam and God. Luke wants us to know that Jesus was human in physical appearance. His first “father” was Adam. He was both God and human.

. . . of Matthat, of Levi, of Melchi, of Jannai, of Joseph, of Mattathias, of Amos, of Nahum, of Hesli, of Naggai, of Maath, of Mattathias, of Semein, of Josech, of Joda, of Joanan, of Rhesa, of Zerubbabel, of Shealtiel, of Neri, of Melchi, of Addi, of Cosam, of Elmadam, of Er, of Joshua, of Eliezer, of Jorim, of Matthat, of Levi, of Simeon, of Judah, of Joseph, of Jonam, of Eliakim, of Melea, of Menna, of Mattatha, of Nathan, of David, of Jesse, of Obed, of Boaz, of Salmon, of Nahshon, of Amminadab, the son of Admin, of Ram, of Hezron, of Perez, of Judah, of Jacob, of Isaac, of Abraham, of Terah, of Nahor, of Serug,of Reu, of Peleg, of Heber, of Shelah, of Cainan, of Arphaxad, of Shem, of Noah, of Lamech, of Methuselah, of Enoch, of Jared, of Mahalaleel, of Cainan, of Enosh, of Seth, of Adam, of God. Luke 3:24-38 (NASB)

marks · Aug 10, 2022

Webers_Home said:
The flesh spoken of in that passage is David's flesh.

• Ps 89:3-4 . . I have made a covenant with My chosen, I have sworn to My
servant David: "Your seed I will establish forever"

• Acts 13:22-24 . . He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He
gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after
My own heart, who will do all My will. From this man's seed, according to the
promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior -- Jesus"

This is something I'm still giving a lot of thought to, but I can't ignore the statements in 1 Corinthians 15. Do you have any comments on that?

1 Corinthians 15:45-49 KJV
45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

How do you understand the distinctions being made here?

Webers_Home said:
Now, according to 1John 4:2-3; when folks insist that Adam's flesh wasn't the
source of Jesus' flesh, we have to write them off as under the influence of
the spirit of antichrist; and that is a really unfortunate condition to be in.

• Rom 8:9 . . If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to
Christ.

Sorry Marks, but I sincerely believe you are a bad influence; so for now I
must consign you to the abyss on Ignore.

Nonesense! Of course He came in flesh! Don't make my words into something they are not.

You've just claimed this passage requires we believe Jesus to be a direct genetic descendant of Adam or be in the spirit of Antichrist. Is that what the verse says?

1 John 4:2-3 KJV
2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

No, actually it does not. And I've many times said Jesus was incarnated in human flesh. But in your condescension you "consign me to the abyss", declaring me not even a Christian.

Much love!

Webers_Home · Aug 10, 2022

.

Heart2Soul said:
Luke’s genealogy

Christ's genealogy given in the gospel of Luke is sometimes appropriated to
establish Mary's biological connection with David, and subsequently Adam,
but I personally don't recommend that route because the language and
grammar of Luke 3:23 is much too controversial.

Along with the language and grammar issue; there's a serious question
about the listings of Shealtiel and Zerubbabel. In Matthew's genealogy, the
two men are linked to David via Solomon. In Luke's genealogy, they're
linked to David via Solomon's brother Nathan.

Their respective descendants are different too. Zerubbabel's son is listed as
Abihud in Matthew's genealogy, whereas his son is listed as Rhesa in Luke's.

Unfortunately, to date there exists no consensus among the experts how
best to resolve the confusion caused by the presence of Shealtiel and
Zerubbabel in both genealogies. Were we scientific in our thinking; we'd
have to consider the data compromised; and which is why I avoid using
Luke's to prove that Mary was biologically related to David.

It's been suggested that Shealtiel and Zerubbabel are common names so we
shouldn't be surprised to find them listed in both genealogies. However, they
are listed as father and son in both genealogies, which we cannot expect
reasonable people to accept as mere coincidence.

However, we can easily circumvent Matthew and Luke by simply pointing out
that if any part of Mary's body-- any part at all: from the tiniest quark to the
largest organ -- was used to make Jesus; then unless someone can prove
beyond even a hint of sensible doubt that Mary's body wasn't biologically
related to Adam's body, we must concede that baby Jesus' body was
biologically related to Adam's by means of his mother's.

• Luke 1:31 . .You will conceive in your womb and bring forth a son, and
shall call his name Jesus.

Now I think it can be safely taken for granted that back then 2,000 years
ago, prior to the wonders of modern science, folks properly understood
conception as it is related to a woman's own reproductive chemistry rather
than an implanted foreign object; for example:

• Luke 1:36 . . Elizabeth your cousin has also conceived a son
_

farouk · Aug 12, 2022

jeffweeder said:
2Cor 5
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Jesus is unique in knowing no sin. Thats how he alone overcame death for everyone else.

He was born of God and we are born of fallen flesh that has the death penalty.

Important verse you quoted there.......

Lambano · Aug 13, 2022

Webers_Home said:
Christ's genealogy given in the gospel of Luke is sometimes appropriated to
establish Mary's biological connection with David, and subsequently Adam,
but I personally don't recommend that route

Being pedantic, I have to point out that Luke is relating Joseph's ancestry, not Mary's.

When He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph,... (Luke 3:23)

Bob Estey · Aug 13, 2022

MatthewG said:
Was Jesus/Yeshua born with a Sin Nature?

No, I don't believe anyone is born with a sin nature.

Was Jesus/Yeshua born with a Sin Nature?

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