"The word was a god"?

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Pierac

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Spirit or Flesh?

Many prophecies indicated that the Coming One would arise from the "seed," the stock of humanity, in a particular from Abrahamic and Davidic stock. The Messiah would be from the biological chain within the human family, specifically of Jewish pedigree: "The Lord your God will rise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your own countrymen [literally, brothers]; you shall listen to him" (Deut.18:15). In this passage, Moses predicts that the coming Messiah would be a person "like me," raised up from "among" the people of Israel, and that God would not speak to the people directly, because they were afraid that if God spoke without a mediator they would die (V16). The coming "prophet" would be a man of whom it is said that God would "put his word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And it shall come about whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him” (v. 18-19). To say that the Messiah is God Himself is to contradict the whole point of this prophecy. For it announces that the ultimate spokesman for God is expressly not God but a human being. The New Testament says that Jesus is the one who fulfilled this prophecy (Acts 3:22; 7:37). Understandably, no Jew who believe theses Scriptures ever imagined that the baby born in Bethlehem was going to be Jehovah himself come as a human baby.

In addition, Jehovah God says clearly that he is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Job 9:32). The converse is therefore true: if a person is a man, then he can not be God.

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on us as we sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

INCARNA'TION, n. The act of clothing with flesh.

1. The act of assuming flesh, or of taking a human body and the nature of man; as the incarnation of the Son of God.

Can God take on the nature of man? What did Paul say?
Romans 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

However, we know that Jesus was begotten. Yet, not eternally begotten! Which is un-scriptural!

BEGOT', BEGOT'TEN, pp. of get. Procreated; generated.

Now let's look at John 1:10 regarding, the world was made through Him (Jesus).

Joh 1:10 In the world He was, and the world came into being through(dia) Him, and the world knew Him not." 11 To His own He came, and those who are His own accepted Him not."

To be a Christian means you know that our Lord Jesus is the diameter, the purpose of the universe. His kingdom is coming! This is God's purpose and it will not be frustrated.

Another verse saying the same thing is Hebrews 1:2. It says God has “appointed” His son to be the “heir of all things” and that it was “through him that he made the world'(s). Here our translations are not quite accurate, what the author wrote was not that through Jesus God made the world(s) but ages. God planned to complete His purpose for all creation through the agency of his son Jesus. The preposition that is used in relation to Jesus and the world, or the ages, is “through” (Greek dia from which you will see comes our English word diameter).

Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin. Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, ‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ, through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6).

Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God
the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).


"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

“The world was made through him,” i.e. with Christ in mind.

Paul
 
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Johann

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Oops! I was going back and forth between threads. Thanks for that.



There is no ‘Godhead’ in Scripture. A bad trinitarian translation imposed its doctrine unto unitarian text.

The Gospel of John is the most anti-trinitarian book of the Bible. 17:3 Jesus explicitly says the Father is the one, true God. What do you make of this verse?
The term Godhead is found three times in the King James Version: Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20; and Colossians 2:9. In each of the three verses, a slightly different Greek word is used, but the definition of each is the same: “deity” or “divine nature.” The word Godhead is used to refer to God’s essential nature. We’ll take a look at each of these passages and what they mean.

In Acts 17, Paul is speaking on Mars Hill to the philosophers of Athens. As he argues against idolatry, Paul says, “Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device” (Acts 17:29, KJV). Here, the word Godhead is the translation of the Greek theion, a word used by the Greeks to denote “God” in general, with no reference to a particular deity. Paul, speaking to Greeks, used the term in reference to the only true God.

In Romans 1, Paul begins to make the case that all humanity stands guilty before God. In verse 20 he says, “The invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” (KJV). Here, Godhead is theiotés. Paul’s argument is that all of creation virtually shouts the existence of God; we can “clearly” see God’s eternal power, as well as His “Godhead” in what He has made. “The heavens declare the glory of God; / the skies proclaim the work of his hands” (Psalm 19:1). The natural world makes manifest the divine nature of God.

Colossians 2:9 is one of the clearest statements of the deity of Christ anywhere in the Bible: “In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” The word for “Godhead” here is theotés. According to this verse, Jesus Christ is God Incarnate. He embodies all (“the fulness”) of God (translated “the Deity” in the NIV). This truth aligns perfectly with Colossians 1:19, “God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him [Christ].”

Because the Godhead dwells bodily in Christ, Jesus could rightly claim that He and the Father are “one” (John 10:30). Because the fullness of God’s divine essence is present in the Son of God, Jesus could say to Philip, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9).

In summary, the Godhead is the essence of the Divine Being; the Godhead is the one and only Deity. Jesus, the incarnate Godhead, entered our world and showed us exactly who God is: “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known” (John 1:18; cf. Hebrews 1:3).

You say; No Godhead
Scripture says Yes.

Next
J.
 

Johann

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And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name (Is. 9:6) is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites’ personal names) does not apply directly to the person bearing the name (as we have already seen with “Elijah,” “Abijah,” etc.) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For instance, two of the best Bible concordances (Young’s and Strong’s) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today’s Dictionary of the Bible) differ greatly on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those “minor” words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” (which is literally just “God King”) means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “God his king” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982.

Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.)

to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

And The Leeser Bible has:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Of course it could also be honestly translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Everlasting Father of the Prince of Peace.”

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[a] “The Mighty God is planning grace;

The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

- from Examining the Trinity: Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"
Isaiah 9:6 - Debating Christianity and Religion
You want to debate?
J.
 

keithr

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I'm confused...You think Jesus was a man.... but now no-longer a man? I undersatnd your confusion given the traditions of men...

keithr... believe the other Paul when He wrote.... Many many years after Jesus rose from the dead...
What do you mean by the "other" Paul? :confused:

1Co 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
This means that sin and death for everyone came from (originated, or resulted from the actions of) one man, Adam, Romans 5:12 (WEB):

(12) Therefore as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; so death passed to all men, because all sinned.​

and the resurrection of the dead also came from (orginated, or resulted from the actions of) one man, Jesus, the Christ, Romans 5:15-21 (WEB):

(15) But the free gift isn’t like the trespass. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
(16) The gift is not as through one who sinned: for the judgment came by one to condemnation, but the free gift came of many trespasses to justification.
(17) For if by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; so much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ.
(18) So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.
(19) For as through the one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one [man], many will be made righteous.
(20) The law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace abounded more exceedingly;
(21) that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

It was through the acts of Jesus, while he was a man (100% man), that we are saved and redeemed, and can look forward to the promised resurrection to eternal life.

Act 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Paul is saying that God has appointed judgement of the world to the man Jesus, who He has raised from the dead. It is evident that since his resurrection Jesus is no longer a man, for he is not living on the Earth and we are told that he is sat down in heaven at the right hand of God.

1 Cornthians 15:45-49 (WEB):
(45) So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(46) However that which is spiritual isn’t first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.
(47) The first man is of the earth, made of dust. The second man is the Lord from heaven.
(48) As is the one made of dust, such are those who are also made of dust; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
(49) As we have borne the image of those made of dust, let’s also bear the image of the heavenly.​

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
Irrelevant to Jesus' nature.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Why is the man Jesus the mediator between men and God? Because, continuing the sentence to verse 6 (KJV):

(6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.​

It was Jesus as a man who sacrificed his life for all mankind, and as a man was familiar with our trials and temptations, Hebrews 4:15 (WEB):

(15) For we don’t have a high priest who can’t be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but one who has been in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.​

Now keithr... tell us how the God Jesus obtained something more excellent that he did not already have???

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
Paul is explaining that Jesus' ministry as a high priest is more excellent than the ministry of human Aaronic priesthood, because he is the "mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises", and the blood of the sacrifice of his human life was far greater than the blood of sacrifice of animals, which were a type pointing foward to Jesus' sacrifice.

Hebrews 5:4-10 (WEB):
(4) Nobody takes this honor [of being high priest] on himself, but he is called by God, just like Aaron was.
(5) So also Christ didn’t glorify himself to be made a high priest, but it was he who said to him, “You are my Son. Today I have become your father.”
(6) As he says also in another place, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.”
(7) He, in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and petitions with strong crying and tears to him who was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear,
(8) though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered.
(9) Having been made perfect, he became to all of those who obey him the author of eternal salvation,
(10) named by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.​

Why would Paul say "in the days of his flesh"? Because Jesus is no longer in the days of his flesh, he has been perfected, glorified and been made a spirit being. Jesus prayed to God, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:5). When he existed with God before the world had been made, no human had been made, and so obviously Jesus was not a man then. So Jesus was praying for God to restore him to his previous spirit being form after he had sacrificed his human body. God not only answered that prayer but he highly exalted him, Philippians 2:8-11 (WEB):

(8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
(9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
(10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
(11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

We (Christians) have the promise of being changed to be made to be like Jesus is now (1 John 3:2), having an immortal (cannot possibly die) spirit nature ("It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body", 1 Corinthians 15:44), the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). If that's how we'll be then it is clear that Jesus is no longer a man.

2 Corinthians5:16-17 (WEB):
(16) Therefore we know no one after the flesh from now on. Even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more.
(17) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.​
 
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Johann

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Please help me to understand what is meant here. If Jesus was "a god" then He could be THE God or a false god. What else could this mean? How can Jesus be "a god"?
What is the single most important question ever asked? The question came from the lips of Jesus in Matthew 16:15 and was addressed to His disciples -- "Who do you say that I am?" So even as we begin this study of John how would YOU answer the question Who is Jesus? Would you give the answer that Peter gave in Matthew 16:16 Peter responded answering "You are the Christ (the Messiah), the Son of the Living God." In Mt 16:17 Jesus declared "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father Who is in heaven." When we confess Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, we are blessed a word which means spiritually prosperous independent of our external circumstances. And how did Peter know Jesus was the Messiah, the Anointed One for whom the Jews of the first century were looking? Was it because Peter was so wise? No, it is because God opened the eyes of his heart to see and understand spiritual truth (cf John 6:44-45).

WHO IS JESUS?

Ask a conservative, "Was Jesus human or divine?" and he will answer emphatically, "Divine!" (John 1:1)

Ask a liberal the same question and he may reply, "Human." (John 1:14)

Both are right and both are wrong.

Why? Because the correct answer is "Both."

Jesus was both human and divine.

Fully God, Fully Man.

Mystery of mysteries!

So if Jesus ask you "Who do you say that I am?" and you are not sure how you would answer, then spend time in John as He reveals His true identity and the Spirit opens your eyes so that you come to KNOW Him as LORD. And if you already KNOW Jesus as Lord, John's Gospel will help you GROW to know Him more intimately than you ever thought possible. Recall from the CHARTS that while the 3 Synoptic Gospels (Mt, Mk, Luke, syn-optic ~ "see together") focus more on what Jesus taught and did, John's Gospel focuses more on Who Jesus is.

J.
 

Johann

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Before there was any beginning, the Word had been

In the beginning (en arche) - What beginning? When is the beginning? Does he mean the beginning of eternity? Of course not, as eternity by its very nature has no beginning and no end, a truth no finite mind can fully grasp. What John is saying could be paraphrased "Before even time began was the Word." And so beginning refers to the inception of creation.

When the creation came into existent, Jesus was already there. No matter how far back we believe the beginning to be, we will find Jesus, the pre-existent Word. Athanasius put it this way "There never was when He was not, when the Son of God was not." (Athanasius' Discourse I Against the Arians -See point 14) In other words, the Word was not created (He is "un-created")!

In fact as we will discuss in more detail on John 1:3, He not only pre-existed eternally before creation, He created creation, "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created by Him and for Him." (Col 1:16-note) The writer of Hebrews adds that "By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the Word of God, (not logos but rhema, the spoken word, but the phrase "Word of God" still suggests a double entendre!) so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible." (Heb 11:3-note) And so in contrast to Matthew and Luke which begin with a classic genealogy, John begins with a "cosmic genealogy" as it were.

John Phillips - John does not waste his time arguing with the Gnostic and other heretics. Rather, he states certain facts that he knows beyond all shadow of doubt to be true. Let them speculate; he knows.

This phrase in the beginning is used in…

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Lxx = en arche epoinsen o theos ton ouranon kai ten gen)

Hebrews 1:10 - And, "THOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING DIDST LAY THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF THY HANDS; (Exploring the Gospel of John)

Moses confronts us with the majesty of God in creation in Genesis 1:1. John confronts us with the majesty of the eternal Deity of Jesus Christ in John 1:1.

Macleod quoting Hunter says “Mark begins his story of Jesus at Jordan, Matthew and Luke start at Bethlehem. But John goes back to the very beginning of history, even beyond it, as if to say, ‘There is only one true perspective in which to see the story—you must see it in the light of eternity.’… In the first stanza of his λόγος hymn John affirmed three truths about the λόγος. First, He existed eternally before the creation of the universe. Second, He coexisted eternally with God. Third, He is Himself of the same nature as God. In His nature He is essential deity. (Ibid)

J.
 

Johann

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Hi Jack, Jesus never claimed to be God or any other God..:)

Jesus said- "Why do you call me good?' No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)
Jesus said - "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
Jesus said - "I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)
God himself said - "This is my beloved son, listen to him" (Matthew 17:5)
Was the Word - John begins without hesitation, without genealogy, without apology, without doubt by describing our Lord's "ineffable Person!" In three sweeping statements John presents the Word as fully God.

The verb was (ēn) is in the imperfect tense which depicts continual existence, a continuous state, not a completed past. As Phillips says "It suggests the idea of "absolute, supra-temporal existence." Or stated another way, the verb in this tense "denotes neither a completed state nor a coming into being. It is appropriate to eternal, unchanging being. John is affirming that the Word existed before creation, which makes it clear that the Word was not created." (Morris). "The Word continually was" is the idea. This truth provides definitive proof of Christ’s deity, for only God is eternal. As Phillips says John "does not refer to a start, but to an infinite state!"

Was (1510) (ēn which is the imperfect form of eimi) means to be and is the usual verb for existence. In the metaphysical sense as in John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word,” meaning it had been before there was any beginning or existed before the beginning of anything; John 8:50, estín, in the pres. tense indicating." (Zodhiates) Notice John does not say in the beginning CAME the Word or BEGAN the Word, but WAS the Word. This verb is in the imperfect tense which speak of continuous action. In a word, the Word was continually existing!

Watch John's masterful use of the Greek verbs and Greek tenses -- four times in Jn 1:1-2 he uses the imperfect tense (ēn) of the verb eimi to say the Word was God (all of John's statements regarding His pre-existence are in this tense), but in Jn 1:14-note he uses the verb ginomai in the aorist tense (egeneto) (punctiliar, an instantaneous intervention, decisive, at a moment or point in time - the aorist usage here refers to some historical time in the past as the beginning of the new state) He became Man. So Jesus who always was God, became Man in a moment in time, doing so without ceasing to be God! Amazing truth! John never says Christ became God but only that He was (always) God!

It is notable that the verb ēn (imperfect of eimi) is used by John in every instance where he is referring to the eternal state of Jesus (see Jn 1:1, 2, 4, 8, 9, 10, 15). One exception might be John's use of ginomai in an allusion to Jesus' existence before [implying His eternal state] John (the Baptist) (Jn 1:15-note) As discussed above John uses ginomai in the aorist tense (egeneto) to refer to becoming something that one was not before in John 1:14-note where God became a Man. In addition to John 1:14, other uses of ginomai in the aorist tense (egeneto) in John's prologue are found in John 1:3-note (twice in the phrase "came into being"), John 1:6 ("There came a man, sent from God"), John 1:10-note ("the world was made through Him") and John 1:17-note ("grace and truth were realized [came] through Jesus Christ."). Note that ginomai is also used in the perfect tense in John 1:3 ("has come into being") and John 1:15-note ("He existed before me"), where the perfect tense implies a continuing existence of a new state.

Guess you are wrong.
J.
 

Johann

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Please help me to understand what is meant here. If Jesus was "a god" then He could be THE God or a false god. What else could this mean? How can Jesus be "a god"?
"a god?!"


John Phillips commenting on John's use of the imperfect tense says "This is not nearly so arresting in English as it is in the original. In each case it sets before the reader not something past, or present, or future, but something ongoing.

It refers to a mode of existence that transcends time. Time is a device to help finite beings relate to their mode of existence. The verb John uses takes us into the sphere of the timeless. In other words, the one John calls "the Word" belongs to a realm where time does not matter. The word did not have a beginning. The word will never have an ending. The word belongs to eternity… But says John, when we think of Jesus, that is where we must begin.

We must go back to the dateless past, to a time before time. We must think of Jesus as never having begun at all. He is eternally God." (Exploring the Gospel of John)

D A Carson draws our attention to John's specific choice of the verb eimi (used 3x in Jn 1:1, the first being the most theologically significant - as an aside eimi is used 35x in chapter 1.) which means "I am" and not the verb ginomai which means "to become" writing "Although the meanings of ēn ('was' - {imperfect tense of eimi}) and egeneto (from ginomai) (rendered 'were made' in Jn 1:3, 'came' in Jn 1:6 and 'became' in Jn 1:14) often overlap, John repeatedly uses the two verbs side by side to establish something of a contrast.

For example, in Jn 8:58 Jesus insists, '[Before] Abraham was born [a form of the second verb {Ed - eimi in the present tense]}, I am [a form of the first verb {Ed - genesthai = ginomai in the aorist tense]}.' In other words, when John uses the two verbs (eimi and ginomai) in the same context, ēn frequently signals existence, whereas egeneto signals 'coming into being' or 'coming into use'. In the beginning, the Word was already in existence.

Stretch our imagination backward as we will, we can find no point in time where we may agree with Anus, who, speaking of the Word, said, 'There was once when he was not.'" (The Gospel according to John -The Pillar New Testament Commentary) (Bolding added)

William Hendriksen remarks, this phrase "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God" is “just another way of saying that He existed from all eternity. He was not what certain heretics claimed Him to be, a created being." In fact Christ did not merely exist, but He began the beginning (creation).

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

J.
 

Blue Dragonfly's

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Please help me to understand what is meant here. If Jesus was "a god" then He could be THE God or a false god. What else could this mean? How can Jesus be "a god"?
Read John 1.
John 1 BSB
''In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'' God, not a god.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.(As Immanuel=''God with us''. Also called Jesus, Yeshua/"'Joshua''.
 

Johann

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You mean God with a capital G, Jesus is the son of God, not God himself, only the one in the highest that created the Heavens and the Earth has that title.
The Word was fully divine for John states emphatically, “the Word was God” (more literally, “God was the Word”). Christ has always been and will always be divine even from His birth (He did not become the Son of God - He was already the Son of God). Furthermore, Jesus was fully divine throughout His life and at His death and His resurrection. In other words even though He became a Man, He never ceased being the Son of God. He never ceased being God.

Here are parallel passages:

Phil 2:6-note Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Col 1:15-note And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born (prototokos) of all creation.

Col 2:9-note For in Him all the fulness (pleroma) of Deity dwells (katoikeo in the present tense = continually) in bodily form,

Heb 1:3-note And He (Jesus) is the radiance (apaugasma) of His (Father's) glory (doxa) and the exact representation (charakter) of His (the Father's) nature…

Don Fortner makes an interesting observation that "With this one sentence John sweeps away and abolishes every heresy by which Satan has harassed the Church of God from its beginning.

· Arianism - which asserts that Christ is a Being inferior to God.

· Sabellianism (Modalism) -, which denies the distinction of Persons in the Trinity, and says that God sometimes manifested himself as the Father, sometimes as the Son, and sometimes as the Spirit.

· Socinianism Unitarianism, which declares that Jesus Christ was not God at all, but mere man, a good and great man, but only a man.

· Arminianism which declares God to be changeable as one whose love, will, purpose and grace are all subject to the will of man! (Sermon on Jn 1:1)

In light of the truth of John 1:1 (Really Jn 1:1-5) we are called to worship Jesus without cessation. We are called to obey Him without hesitation. We are called to love Him without reservation. And we are called to serve Him without interruption.

C T Studd understood John 1:1-5 when he said "If Jesus Christ is God and die for me, then no sacrifice that I could ever make for Him, could ever be too great."

Jesus not God?
J.
 

Dropship

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...absolute, supra-temporal existence..
ēn which is the imperfect form of eimi..In the metaphysical sense...estín, in the pres. tense indicating." (Zodhiates)...
the imperfect tense (ēn) of the verb eimi the verb ginomai in the aorist tense (egeneto) punctiliar...
Guess you are wrong...

Mate, that little lot sounds like an unfathomable Klingon menu..:)
"The more the words,the less the meaning,and how does that profit anyone?" (Ecclesiastes 6:11 NIV)
I think i'll stick to plain old fish and chips with a sausage in batter and pickled onion if you don't mind..:)-
 
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tigger 2

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Johann wrote #515:

"You are no scholar, so leave John 1:1 and lean not unto your own understanding.
I know the urge to sound to sound [sic] sophomoric and highly intellectual and to know all the answers in the scriptures is fleshly driven, mere intellectual, stoical knowledge, acquired gnosis, so please, down with th [sic] pride and just believe what you read, and Christ Jesus IS Theos, Theos pros ho Theos.."

............................................
Why would anyone want to sound "sophomoric"?

Do you mean that I must follow the teachings of trinitarian scholars and overlook any errors they make?

I have quoted/cited a number of recognized trinitarian scholars in my study of John 1:1. If you are as educated in NT Greek as you claim, you should be able to do a scholarly examination (not just personal attack) of every aspect of my study. I expect that, instead, you will refuse with the usual excuses.

Examining the Trinity OR Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity.

Please point out the 'errors' one by one and explain why they are wrong.

Let me help you. Here is the first point in the Jn 1:1c Primer study:

"The NT Greek word for "God" and "god" is theos (θεὸς). In the writings of the Gospel writers (including John) when an unmodified theos (the form used for subjects and predicate nouns) is accompanied by the article, "the" (ὁ [pronounced ho] in Greek), and has no added phrases (e.g., "the god of this world"), then it always refers to the only true God. - See DEF study."

Johann posted frequently on this discussion (16 times since July 19 I believe), but it suddenly ended when I first posted the above on July 26.

I really want to discuss my study of the grammar of John 1:1c and its parallel constructions in John’s writing. Perhaps if I post the next part of my study…

“But Jn 1:1c has an unmodified "theos" without the article. Therefore, even some trinitarian scholars are forced to admit that this passage may be literally translated as "the Word was a god"!
This includes W. E. Vine (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words);
Dr. C. H. Dodd (director of the New English Bible project);
Murray J. Harris (Jesus as God);
Dr. Robert Young (Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary);
Rev. J. W. Wenham, (The Elements of New Testament Greek).

Of course, being trinitarians, they often insist that the correct interpretation of such a literal translation must be, somehow, trinitarian.

The usual trinitarian interpretation for John 1:1c ("the Word was God") is supposedly based on the fact that an unmodified theos is used as a predicate noun (predicate nominative) without a definite article (anarthrous) and comes before the verb in the New Testament (NT) Greek text. When you find an anarthrous predicate noun in that position, some trinitarians will say, it is to be interpreted differently ("qualitative" or "definite": i.e., as though it actually had the definite article with it or is understood as an adjective) from a predicate noun which normally comes after the verb.

Although such a "reversed" word order is extremely rare in English, it is common in NT Greek. And even a number of respected trinitarian scholars translate such constructions as having an indefinite predicate noun (“The Apostle is a man”; “He is a murderer”; “The man is a prophet”; ““He was a prophet”; “And the place was a market,”; “John Smith is a teacher”; etc.

So I decided to examine all the usages of a predicate noun found before its verb in all of John’s writings that are as close to the example of John 1:1c as we can find.

Here is what I found. Notice how many have the definite article with the predicate noun (as trinitarians imagine at John 1:1c.):

H 1. John 4:9 (a) - indefinite (“a Jew”)

H,W 2. John 4:19 - indefinite (“a prophet”)

H,W 3. John 6:70 - indefinite (“a devil”/“a slanderer”)

H,W 4. John 8:44 - indefinite (“a murderer”/“a manslayer”)

H,W 5. John 8:48 - indefinite (“a Samaritan”)

H,W 6. John 9:24 - indefinite (“a sinner”)

H,W 7. John 10:1 - indefinite (“a thief and a plunderer”)

H,W 8. John 10:33 - indefinite (“a man”)

H,W 9. John 18:35 - indefinite (“a Jew”)

H,W 10. John 18:37 (a) - indefinite (“a king”)

[H,W 11. John 18:37 (b) - indefinite (“a king”) - in Received Text and in 1991 Byzantine Text]

………………………………................................

H,W 12. Jn 8:44 (b) - “a liar”

H,W 13. Jn 9:8 (a) - “a beggar”

H,W 14. Jn 9:17 - “a prophet”

H,W 15. Jn 9:25 - “a sinner”

H,W 16. Jn 10:13 - “a hireling”

H,W 17. Jn 12:6 - “a thief”

18. 1 Jn 4:20 - “a liar “

And, possibly,

H,W 19. 1 John 2:4 - “a liar”

….………………………………………

H: Also found in Harner’s list of “Colwell Constructions”(end note #16, JBL)

W: Also found in Wallace’s list of “Colwell Constructions”(Greek Grammar & Syntax)

These uses by John show that John 1:1c should also be translated into English with the English indefinite article: “And the word was a god.”
 
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Wrangler

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Do you mean that I must follow the teachings of trinitarian scholars and overlook any errors they make?... just personal attack
Yup. The trinitarian position is weak, the only resort is to attack and attempt to shame one for not embracing the dogma.
 

Johann

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Mate, that little lot sounds like an unfathomable Klingon menu..:)
"The more the words,the less the meaning,and how does that profit anyone?" (Ecclesiastes 6:11 NIV)
I think i'll stick to plain old fish and chips with a sausage in batter and pickled onion if you don't mind..:)-
Stick to fish and chips mate, watch out for the bones.
 

tigger 2

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Johann #667:
“Was the Word - John begins without hesitation, without genealogy, without apology, without doubt by describing our Lord's ‘ineffable Person!’ In three sweeping statements John presents the Word as fully God.

”The verb was (ēn) is in the imperfect tense which depicts continual existence, a continuous state, not a completed past.”


….………………………………………….

As for the word "was" (whether said to be in the imperfect tense or not does not matter), it can be seen simply by examining the many other uses of "was" (ἦν - looks like nv in Greek characters.) in the writings of John that it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with eternity.

Many grammar texts show that one use of the imperfect has a starting point, a beginning:

- See Dana and Mantey, pp. 190-191 ("Inceptive Imperfect") and Moule, p. 9 (Inceptive Imperfect is "frequent in the N.T.").

We also can find this readily-found concept in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics by Daniel B. Wallace (1996) which also says of the "Ingresssive (Inchoative, Inceptive) Imperfect":

"1. Definition - The imperfect is often used to stress the beginning of an action, with the implication that it continued for some time. 2. Clarification and Amplification - The difference between the ingressive imperfect and the ingressive aorist is that the imperfect stresses beginning, but implies that the action continues, while the aorist stresses beginning, but does not imply that action continues." - p. 544. Wallace, by the way, certainly doesn't mind frequently quoting from and referring to A.T. Robertson's classic Grammar.

http://www.wmcarey.edu/crockett/greek-syntax-summary.pdf

"GREEK SYNTAX SUMMARY
"James A. Brooks and Carlton L. Winbery, Syntax of New Testament Greek.
Lanham: University Press of America, 1979.

"Imperfect Tense - Linear, progressive action (in past time)
"1. descriptive imperfect (progressive, most common)
2. durative imperfect (continual action that is completed)
3. iterative imperfect (repetition of action, custom)
4. tendential imperfect (attempted but not completed)
5. voluntative imperfect (expression of desire)
6. inceptive [aoristic] imperfect (emphasis on the beginning of the action)"

Let's look at a few examples in the writings of John (since we are investigating John's intended meaning here):

John 9:8 - "they that saw him aforetime, that he was [ἦν] a beggar" - ASV.

These people knew that the blind man had continued to be a beggar for a long time. .... And yet we certainly shouldn't try to put an "eternal" (or even a future 'continuing') meaning on it. The blind man certainly was not a beggar for all eternity. He was not a beggar before he was born on earth. He probably was not a beggar as a newborn infant. He probably became a beggar as a young man or youth. So ἦν ("was") here still indicates something that had a beginning and then continued [up until the time the Jews said or thought it and probably did not continue after that].

John 9:16 - "there was [ἦν] a division among them" - ASV.

The division was over whether the one who had just cured the blind man was from God or not. Since the blind man had JUST been healed, it is obvious that this particular "division" actually BEGAN ("was") at this time. It obviously means, "At this time there began to be [or 'came to be'] a division among them."

John 10:22 (or 23) - "it was [ἦν] winter" - ASV.

Whether it is called an imperfect tense or not, it is still very clear that it hadn't been winter for all eternity. It either means "winter had just begun at this time" or "winter had begun a short time [months at most] ago." But there can be absolutely no doubt that it had recently come into existence.

John 12:6 - "he was [ἦν] a thief" - ASV.

I hope no one insists that Judas was really a thief from all eternity! However, if they do, it is no more unreasonable to insist that Jesus was "with God" from all eternity in the same sense that Judas "existed as a thief from all eternity."

John 8:44 tells us of Satan: "that (one) man-killer [or 'manslayer,' Strong's Concordance; NAS Concordance; Thayer; etc.] was [ἦν] from the beginning."

According to the same reasoning of some concerning the "eternal" [ἦν] ("was") "in the beginning" of Jesus at Jn 1:1, Satan himself must be "eternal," and by this specious reasoning must, therefore, be God Himself! Either was" [ἦν] in this scripture does not mean an eternal existence, or, if it does, then Jesus can certainly be just as "eternal" as Satan himself and still not be God! (Of course, Satan had a beginning and will have an end!)

The word [ἦν], like the other "be" verbs, simply shows existence. It obviously does not indicate the length of that existence. Even the very early Christian scholar, Tertullian [ca. 200 A.D.], who many trinitarians claim was one of the founders of the Trinity Doctrine, said the same!

Tertullian wrote concerning the word 'was' [ἦν, Septuagint] at Gen. 1:1, 2: "But you [the heretic Hermogenes] ... say: 'There is the 'was,' [ἦν] looking as if it pointed to an eternal existence, - making its subject, of course, unbegotten and unmade....' Well now, for my own part, I [Tertullian] shall resort to no affected protestation, but simply reply that 'was' [ἦν] may be predicated of everything - even a thing which has been created, which was born, which once was not .... For of everything which has being, from whatever source it has it, whether it has it by a beginning or without a beginning, the word 'was' will be predicated from the very fact that it exists." - 'Against Hermogenes,' Ch. xxvii, as translated on p. 492, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. III, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1993 printing.

The eternal “was” is a wishful dream (or fakery) by certain trinitarians.
 

Wrangler

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Was the Word - John begins without hesitation, without genealogy, without apology, without doubt by describing our Lord's ‘ineffable Person!

Complete fabrication. V1 is about God, who is the Father of our lord; it is not about our Lord until v14.
 

1stCenturyLady

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Please help me to understand what is meant here. If Jesus was "a god" then He could be THE God or a false god. What else could this mean? How can Jesus be "a god"?

1 John 5:7 There are three that bear witness in heaven: The Father, The Word and the Holy Spirit. And these three are one," meaning one God. Just like I am one human being with three distinct parts. A body, a mind and a conscience/heart/emotions. Those three make me. If any one of those was missing I wouldn't exist as God created me. All three are needed to make the whole human. If the mind was gone, I'd be brain dead. If the body was gone, I'd still be dead but buried, and my mind and consciousness would be with God if they were reborn and put on immortality. And if my conscience was gone I'd be a psychopath and be a serial killer; hardly worth mentioning as they will never want to be a Christian.

And all three parts of God are needed to make one God. Each part of the whole is a part of God, not a god. No part of God is a lesser god. A god is a false doctrine because they don't understand how one can be three parts to make the One. JW's have misunderstood those Trinitarians who erroneously explain they are not three parts, but three persons, and that is what JW's disagree with and rightly so. No church father ever taught three persons. Tertullian taught three substances which is the same as three parts.
 

Wrangler

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1 John 5:7 There are three that bear witness in heaven: The Father, The Word and the Holy Spirit.
A trinitarian translation invention. Translations that don't have "James" in the title have it right.

1 John 5:7-8
New Living Translation

7 So we have these three witnesses— 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and all three agree.
 
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keithr

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we can find no point in time where we may agree with Anus, who, speaking of the Word, said, 'There was once when he was not.'" (The Gospel according to John -The Pillar New Testament Commentary)
I think you're typing out of your anus. ;) I think you'll find that should be Arius, not Anus. :Laughingoutloud:
 
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