Once OSAS Always OSAS

bbyrd009 · Aug 13, 2022

robert derrick said:
As you wish.

No use arguing about it.

well no, but you could have asked for a list right, since it might not be as i wish at all?
And i mean who knows, nothing on the list might apply to you, or none of them might even be sins iyo, etc. It would strictly be an opinion, eh? That you dont wanna hear

ego is a funny thing innit

bbyrd009 · Aug 13, 2022

Taken said:
The gift of Salvation is Always Given AFTER a bodily death

if that is true, then why not Quote it

Helen · Aug 13, 2022

robert derrick said:
You didn't address the point: the chastisement of the Lord for His people, is not the morning after, which is the same for all flesh, including wrecked careers, sickly bodies, etc...which can all be enhanced by riotous and ungodly living.

In the flesh, yes, but in spirit with inheritance, no.

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.

When his father saw him, he was his living son. Until then, he was dead.

God has no sinful, unrighteous, ungodly, sinning children of the devil for sons made in the image of His dear Son, who was never sinning with the devil.

You've been corrected. I no longer argue on the bible study forum. If you would like me to clarify, I'd be glad to.

Or you can make it private with me, or take it to the debate forum.

Thanks for yours.

You hit the nail on the head when you said , he was still a son…but had lost his inheritance .

As I see the Bible from beginning to end , that is what it is all about!

Do we love the Father enough to deny our own life and have His in the Kingdom?

So often when I’ve got disappointed in God…be it failed healing, the loss of a loved one far too early etc…I hear the Fathers voice whisper to me…” Am I enough ? “
HE IS our inheritance and our final great reward . Nothing is worth losing that.

I wonder how many of us have sold our birthright for a moment of indulging the flesh, as Esau did.
That is what has kept me on the straight and narrow these 58 years of walking with Him.

As I’ve said so often , there will be many levels in heaven … I don’t like Rick Joiner much at all…but one line in his book stuck with me …he described his vision of the last great gathering ..… millions of ‘people’ .
He’d come in at the back door of this Gathering with the angels guide.
He spoke to the ones standing at the back…they told him that they were among the foolish virgins group…..saying -“ We can hear His voice , but we can never quite see His face. “

Food for deep thought .
Our salvation cost Jesus everything. In return , what price are we willing to pay to live in His glorious Presence?

Selah.

blessings …H

Helen · Aug 13, 2022

@robert derrick

A quick P.S.

For those who “ rejoice in grace while continuing to deliberately indulge in sin” — they could never have really had a true revelation of what Grace cost to the Son.

Blue Dragonfly's · Aug 13, 2022

Helen said:
@robert derrick

A quick P.S.

For those who “ rejoice in grace while continuing to deliberately indulge in sin” — they could never have really had a true revelation of what Grace cost to the Son.

I would say
they revel not in grace but toward their own damnation.

'' ...because they are not one of us.'' 1 John 2:19

1 John 3:6 No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.

1 John 2:29 If ye know .that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

1 John 3:6.No one who remains in Him sins continually; no one who sins continually has seen Him or knows Him.

9.No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God. 10.By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother and sister.

Lizbeth · Aug 14, 2022

Behold said:
Its written to Christ Rejecting Hebrews, in the epistle entitled "HEBREWS".

You find them in Hebrews Chapter 6 and 10 and Acts 28.
You find Paul the Apostle giving them the Gospel, and they are spitting it out, willfully.
They are "trodding under foot" the precious blood of Jesus.

A lot of Christians ask...>"what is the unpardonable sin".....and you can find it being committed in Hebrews 10:26, by Christ Rejecting HEBREWS.

There are so many verses in the book of Hebrews that show it is addressing BELIEVING Jews. Can't remember if I already posted this somewhere, but in any case doesn't hurt to post it again:

Heb 3:1

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of OUR profession, Christ Jesus;

Heb 3:12-14

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For WE are made partakers of Christ, if WE hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 4:2-3

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. (“them” is talking about unbelieving Jews, as opposed to “us” and “we” who believe....which means the recipients of the letter are believers, not unbelievers.)

For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:14

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast OUR profession. (unbelievers don’t have a profession of faith, so here again we see the letter is addressed to believers)

Heb 5:12

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

(addressing those who had known Christ long enough that they ought to be teachers in the body of Christ....and one doesn’t expect unbelievers to be teachers in the church)

Heb 6:1-2

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

(again, this could not have been addressed to those who don’t even know Jesus and the foundation of the faith)

Heb 6:9-11

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

(again, it’s clear this is talking to believers not unbelievers)

Heb 6:18

That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

(talking to believers...unbelievers have not fled for refuge in Christ)

Heb 13:19

But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner.

(would the writer of this epistle be hoping to be restored to a group of UNbelievers? That wouldn’t make sense, so again this must be addressing believers.)

Heb 13:22-24

And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words.

Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you.

Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

(Wouldn’t make sense here either, that this would have been written to UN believers. Believers don’t exhort unbelievers, and believing “church leaders” don’t have any spiritual authority/rule over unbelievers)

Taken · Aug 14, 2022

bbyrd009 said:
if that is true, then why not Quote it

I gave a point blank inclusive statement.
Scripture gives the knowledge in numerous verses of Who, When, How, Why, inclusion in Salvation applies to, according to Gods Order & Way...
And thus requires a man to seek the knowledge Beyond the visible Body.

Secularly men See, speak, are highly concerned with Bodily Death.
(Men fear bodily death, are saddened by bodily death, will seek, follow, try, any man-made devise, (good or bad means), and spend their last penny in hopes to avoid bodily death.)

For example: Observe the works of power-sitting men today.
Within a very short span of time (of months); The whole world has become in Fear of Bodily Death, of a proposed THING; not one man can: See, Hear, Touch, Smell, Taste! A crafty phenomenon!
And further; A crafty “solution”, that has been mandated, required, forced, devastating for accepting, and punished for rejecting, without accountability consequences to the “enforcers”.

Spiritually God addresses the WHOLE of a man;
the visible body, the invisible soul, the invisible spirit; of man.
* The Life of a mans Body, is his BLOOD.
* The Life of a mans soul, is Gods BREATH.
* The Life of a mans spirit, is Gods SEED.
* God Requires the Bodily Death of all men.

Gen 9:
[5] And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

* God OFFERS man opportunity for Salvation of his soul.
(It’s a mysterious thing. Gods Breath (soul) in a man is accounted as the mans, his soul, in his body, attached to the identity (name) of that man...YET...ALL souls belong to God.

Ezek 18:
[4] Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

* A mans BODY is physical, A mans SOUL, is spiritual.
Men can KILL a body, However a mans SOUL’S destiny is controlled BY God.
* ALL souls WITHIN a BODY, are controlled by that BODY. A BODY’s LIFE (thoughts of Heart, thoughts of the Mind), gains Knowledge, cipher’s the Knowledge, picks and chooses and decides the Body’s BELIEFS, which BY Default Affects the soul WITHIN the Body.
* A BODY, which chooses TO Reject the Lord God, ultimately by default, is ALSO choosing for his soul WITHIN him, to Reject the Lord God.
* The Body rejection...is separation from God.
* The Soul rejection....is separation from God.
* ANY part of man (body, soul, spirit of man) that Rejects God, IS Separated from God....IS a spiritual DEATH.
* That is MYSTERIOUS, BECAUSE Visibly ALIVE men, CAN BE
body, soul, spirit...Spiritually DEAD/separated FROM God.

* Gods Offering to ALL men, IS an Order and Way, for ALL men,
Spiritually DEAD, to become MADE; body, soul, spirit, Spiritually ALIVE,
ONCE and FOR EVER, by, through, of: The POWER of God.

* The ONCE and FOR EVER (order and way) is revealed in Scripture, FOR EVERY LIVING man, to hear, learn, Accept (and BE GUARANTEED to For EVER be with the Lord God),
THAT guarantee, Effected By, Through, Of, the POWER of God (ie Called the Holy Spirit of God, whose Title is THE CHRIST, entering, dwelling with IN, and KEEPING that man, WITH the Lord God For Ever.)
* The TRUST of that individual BEING:

1 John 4:
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

KEY word...IN you.

Bottom line...
A man makes choices for his own LIFE (Body, Blood).
His BODY must Die (God Requires it.)
Bodily DEAD men, know nothing, can not think, choose anything.
A BODY can NOT BE made anew, A SOUL of man can not be Restored (Pss 23:3) (saved), A spirit of man can not be born again (made anew with ever lasting Life, via Gods SEED)...
UNTIL a ‘Living” man CHOOSES what he DESIRES for his own body/, soul, spirit with IN ‘him”.

1 Cor 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

A NATURAL “seed” must DIE before a LIFE Begins.

A sperm, a tree nut, a grass seed, a fruit seed...DIES before a life springs forth.

Gods Offers man His SEED, which never Dies, For any man to ELECT to TAKE His Offering.
BTW, Gods Offering, (unlike men can and do Force their own will, and offerings)...Gods Offering is NEVER forced. It is always by a mans own freewill to accept Gods Offering.

Decisions of a man MUST be made while he is ALIVE in his Bodily Blood LIFE.
WHEN a mans RECEIVES Gods Offering is AFTER the Bodily DEATH.

* Men WHO Believe, but HAVE NOT Offered their BODY unto DEATH...
SHALL BE SAVED on the DAY of their physical DEATH.
* AND WHILE such a man ^ during his physically bodily Life...BELIEVES...God WILL BE “WITH” that man.
* Men WHO Believe AND give their BODY unto DEATH...
(As God has offered, by, through, of Jesus’ Bodily Death, that man Submitting to; CRUCIFIXION bodily DEATH, “WITH” Christ Jesus.
HAVE satisfied, their ONE required Bodily Death, and Satisfied Gods Word to RECEIVE their Gift of Salvation THEN...and they effectively called:....Not ONLY WITH God....but GODS Spirit “IN” them...and they “IN” Gods Spirit...ie “IN” Christ...ARE SAVED.

I gave a concluding statement.
You asked for a one liner Scriptural statement.
I know of none. Rather it is a study of cumulative Scriptures.

Scripturally to know the knowledge of how to arrive at the wisdom of conclusion of the Difference Between Being WITH God, (which is maintained by the will power of the individual man), AND the Lord God Being WITH and IN the man (which is maintained by the will Power of the Lord God).

Scripture is full of warnings of the WEAKNESS of men, which absolutely carries over to a man maintaining his belief in God by his own power., which IS subject to Failure....and the SUPREME STRENGTH of God, maintaining a mans belief in God by Gods Power WITH and IN the man.

Knowledge is knowing What God promises.
Wisdom is understanding the knowledge of How and When Gods promises are fulfilled.

James 1:
[5] If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
[6] But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
[7] For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Glory to God,
Taken

bbyrd009 · Aug 14, 2022

Taken said:
I gave a point blank inclusive statement

yes, and since i doubt it, i am asking you for a Quote!

Taken said:
Scripture gives the knowledge in numerous verses of Who, When, How, Why, inclusion in Salvation applies to, according to Gods Order & Way...
And thus requires a man to seek the knowledge Beyond the visible Body.

Secularly men See, speak, are highly concerned with Bodily Death.
(Men fear bodily death, are saddened by bodily death, will seek, follow, try, any man-made devise, (good or bad means), and spend their last penny in hopes to avoid bodily death.)

For example: Observe the works of power-sitting men today.
Within a very short span of time (of months); The whole world has become in Fear of Bodily Death, of a proposed THING; not one man can: See, Hear, Touch, Smell, Taste! A crafty phenomenon!
And further; A crafty “solution”, that has been mandated, required, forced, devastating for accepting, and punished for rejecting, without accountability consequences to the “enforcers”.

Spiritually God addresses the WHOLE of a man;
the visible body, the invisible soul, the invisible spirit; of man.
* The Life of a mans Body, is his BLOOD

sorry taken, tl;dr ok? But if you can ever find the Quote, im interested!
or if by extraction, since i get that a direct Quote is not always possible, under a paragraph pls? ty

Davy · Aug 14, 2022

robert derrick said:
We agree on three points: OSAS is false. If we sin, we must confess with godly sorrow to be forgiven. If we say we have no sin, then we are deluded.

Apparently you misunderstand confessing we are not now sinning, which is not saying we have no sin, nor is boasting it is impossible for us to sin in future.

Right now, as I write to you, I am not sinning in spirit nor in the flesh. My heart is pure from lust for the world, and I am not sinning with the devil in word nor deed. It's not a boast, but simply the truth of being reconciled to God and in fellowship with Jesus Christ in the Light.

Are you saying that I John 1:8, is somehow commanding all Christians to acknowledge they always have lust and sin in their heart and soul?

The Scripture is only warning against those who believe they have no sin from the devil to resist.

OSAS abuses 1 John 1:8. so as to preach we are all therefore still sinners, and sinning at any given time. Is that what you are agreeing with?

The simplicity of 1 John 1 is that those in Christ are to repent to Him 'when'... we slip up and do future sin, not 'if', but 'when', because we cannot be our 'own' Christ and without sin like Lord Jesus, but only 'counted' as perfect through Faith and repentance. No need to try and beat that into some other meaning, it's simple. It's like Paul said in Galatians 3:22, the Scriptures has concluded all under sin so that the Promise by Faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Heart2Soul · Aug 14, 2022

Davy said:
The simplicity of 1 John 1 is that those in Christ are to repent to Him 'when'... we slip up and do future sin, not 'if', but 'when', because we cannot be our 'own' Christ and without sin like Lord Jesus, but only 'counted' as perfect through Faith and repentance. No need to try and beat that into some other meaning, it's simple. It's like Paul said in Galatians 3:22, the Scriptures has concluded all under sin so that the Promise by Faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Salvation is a gift from God. All we must do is receive it. There were no instructions given at the time it was received except only to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and was sent to take away our sins by becoming the living, holy sacrifice sacrifice necessary for the remission of sin.
When Jesus died and took the sins of the world upon himself, becoming sin who knew no sin, He included everyone who received the gift of salvation. Even future believers....and all sins is all sins of the world...even before they ha

Davy · Aug 14, 2022

Heart2Soul said:
Salvation is a gift from God. All we must do is receive it. There were no instructions given at the time it was received except only to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and was sent to take away our sins by becoming the living, holy sacrifice sacrifice necessary for the remission of sin.
When Jesus died and took the sins of the world upon himself, becoming sin who knew no sin, He included everyone who received the gift of salvation. Even future believers....and all sins is all sins of the world...even before they ha

Here's a verse by Apostle Paul we don't often here preached...

Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
KJV

Remission of "sins that are past"?

What about future sins we may commit?

Helen · Aug 14, 2022

Davy said:
Here's a verse by Apostle Paul we don't often here preached...

Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
KJV

Remission of "sins that are past"?

What about future sins we may commit?

are they not cleansed as we walk?

“As we walk in the light as He is in the light , the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin ..” 1 John .

mailmandan · Aug 14, 2022

Davy said:
Here's a verse by Apostle Paul we don't often here preached...

Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
KJV

Remission of "sins that are past"?

What about future sins we may commit?

Romans 3:25 (AMP) - whom God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin], because in His forbearance [His deliberate restraint] He passed over the sins previously committed [before Jesus’ crucifixion].

This sheds some light on what is meant by PAST sins. It does not mean that ONLY our past sins are forgiven by Jesus.

Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Further translations of Romans 3:25 read:

ESV - whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

HCSB - God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed.

NASB - whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed.

NIV - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.

amigo de christo · Aug 14, 2022

Helen said:
@robert derrick

A quick P.S.

For those who “ rejoice in grace while continuing to deliberately indulge in sin” — they could never have really had a true revelation of what Grace cost to the Son.

I know a man who once did this . The man was lost , blind and naked and did not know the LORD yet had only head knowledge of the gospel .
That man was not saved , he was not born again and it was seen in his fruits . The man was me . I was blind and headed right
to the lake of fire . PRAISE GOD for the true life saving and life changing Grace HE sent to me which truly drew me to THE JESUS
who does save and change . The problem is most churches are preaching another jesus and it cannot save a soul .
We need to get in bibles and stay well planted in them .

Heart2Soul · Aug 14, 2022

Davy said:
Here's a verse by Apostle Paul we don't often here preached...

Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
KJV

Remission of "sins that are past"?

What about future sins we may commit?

I believe the same thing Paul spoke....he finds there is a law that where good is present evil is present also.
Romans 7 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹⁵ For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
¹⁶ If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
¹⁷ Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
¹⁸ For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
¹⁹ For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
²⁰ Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
²¹ I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
²² For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
²³ But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
²⁴ O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
²⁵ I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Now what I read is
1. Sin dwells in a believer
2. There is a law in place
A. Law of good and evil
B. Law of flesh and mind
3. The mind serves the Law of God
4. The flesh serves the law of sin.

This is why we will not see sinless perfection until Jesus returns and gives us a new body...the corruptible into an incorruptible one.

Taken · Aug 14, 2022

bbyrd009 said:
yes, and since i doubt it, i am asking you for a Quote!

sorry taken, tl;dr ok?

No clue your meaning.

But if you can ever find the Quote, im interested!
or if by extraction, since i get that a direct Quote is not always possible, under a paragraph pls? ty

Acts 20:
[32] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

The sanctification of a man is by, through, of Conversion.
The mans true oath of agreeing to accept the Lord’s Power to make a man set apart holy unto the Lord God.

Sanctify.

To set apart for sacred use; consecrate.

To make holy; purify.

To give religious sanction to, as with an oath or vow.

A mans Life is a Journey, via, hearing, learning, believing the Word of God are personal free choices of a man. The continuing, or the deflecting are personal free choices of a man. The man freely choosing to lay down his life crucified with Jesus and be MADE by the Power of God, wholly, whole and holy are also personal free choices of a man.
The consequences for a mans choices are not secret.

I suppose the best Big Picture scenario would be:
Be Made wholly, whole and holy set apart unto the Lord God Forever,
Or be separated from the Lord God Forever.

Heb 10
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Jesus gave his body unto death, per the will of the Father.
If Jesus Christ be your chosen example, so also will you choose to offer your body once unto death, per the will of the Father.

Because remember; Best one-liner, already given you.
A man can not be quickened, less he first die.

1 Cor 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Davy · Aug 15, 2022

Helen said:
are they not cleansed as we walk?

“As we walk in the light as He is in the light , the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin ..” 1 John .

Yes, of course, "As we walk in the light..." like that says. But what happens when we don't... do that, and instead mess up?

And I can guarantee, we will still mess up after having believed on Him. Even Peter messed up when he separated himself from Gentile brethren when Peter's Jewish brethren from Jerusalem came for a visit, and Apostle Paul got all over him for it.

Likewise, Apostle Paul spent a lot of the meat of His Epistles with rebukes and warnings to the various Churches he was as overseer. In that same Galatians, in chapter 5, Paul also explained the difference between our 'walk', either by our flesh, or by The Spirit. And if we fall back to walking by our flesh, Paul showed that we are back under the law in that case.

So really, one needs to use common sense on this matter, and that's what the 1 John 1 Scripture is for, showing us that need to repent to Jesus when we discover future sin we may do. So no wonder Lord Jesus included the asking of forgiveness of sins in the prayer He showed us to pray per Luke 11.

Davy · Aug 15, 2022

mailmandan said:
Romans 3:25 (AMP) - whom God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin], because in His forbearance [His deliberate restraint] He passed over the sins previously committed [before Jesus’ crucifixion].

This sheds some light on what is meant by PAST sins. It does not mean that ONLY our past sins are forgiven by Jesus.

Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Further translations of Romans 3:25 read:

ESV - whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

HCSB - God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed.

NASB - whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed.

NIV - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.

And that is what Lord Jesus did upon His cross, but not AUTOMATICALLY like you are trying... to interpret.

EACH person, individually, MUST believe on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection in order for their PREVIOUS sins to be remitted.

And that... included the dead also that Jesus went and preached The Gospel to per 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4.

So common sense is, when one FIRST BELIEVES, that is the POINT when all their PREVIOUS SINS are remitted and forgotten. And that is CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE 101.

So what Paul said per the KJV translation is... accurate that it is about PREVIOUS SINS being remitted, and NOT all sins one may ever commit.

Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
KJV

Notice that verse 26 phrase, "... and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus," shows Paul was pointing specifically to Christ's death and resurrection being for those who 'believe' in conjunction with that, "remission of sins that are past".

So let's think about your interpretation on that, which actually is the idea of Universalism. And man's doctrine of Universalism says that Jesus died on the cross for EVERYBODY's sin even whether they 'believe' on Him or not. That is a doctrine from men, and is not written in God's Word. Everyone... must make a choice to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, or not. And those who refuse to believe will be cast into the future "lake of fire". So truly, Universalism is actually a slap in God's Face, as if He is going to allow wickedness to continue.

bbyrd009 · Aug 15, 2022

Taken said:
No clue your meaning

i understand, my apologies, its just that an extended non-answer will invariably introduce other flawed (imo) concepts that would bog down the discussion to infinity, which i am noticing is what was done in your last (non)response

And so ill repeat, if you have a Quote or even some support for “The gift of Salvation is Always Given AFTER a bodily death,” that isnt easily attributable to “spiritual death,” then id like to hear it—i mean if it is a central tenet of ones belief system imo it shouldnt be too hard to firmly establish?—and meanwhile understand that if you choose to believe that anyway i have no objections whatsoever, until you start stating it as fact, here

Davy · Aug 15, 2022

Heart2Soul said:
I believe the same thing Paul spoke....he finds there is a law that where good is present evil is present also.
Romans 7 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹⁵ For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
¹⁶ If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
¹⁷ Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
¹⁸ For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
¹⁹ For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
²⁰ Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
²¹ I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
²² For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
²³ But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
²⁴ O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
²⁵ I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Now what I read is
1. Sin dwells in a believer
2. There is a law in place
A. Law of good and evil
B. Law of flesh and mind
3. The mind serves the Law of God
4. The flesh serves the law of sin.

This is why we will not see sinless perfection until Jesus returns and gives us a new body...the corruptible into an incorruptible one.

What I see from Apostle Paul in that is how these flesh bodies with all its lusts and desires causes most of our sins while alive on earth, and that these flesh bodies are just temporary, and are a part of the corruptions of this present time. Why do I see Paul pointing to that idea in Romans 7?

Because in the next chapter of Romans 8:18-25, Paul revealed that God placed His creation for this present world also in bondage to corruption, and it along with us seeks a release from it. Paul linked that idea with our future redemption pointing to our future glorious body.

So this is actually getting into the subject of the differences between worlds, and the two dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthly one vs. the Heavenly one. And there just aren't that many well studied enough in God's Word to even discuss to that depth. The majority still want to see the flesh as something special that is meant to be forever, and also part of the glorious future manifestation of the sons of God when God also releases His creation from the state of bondage to corruption it is presently in today.

Rom 8:18-23
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
KJV

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