What Are we Getting Saved From?

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bbyrd009

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Mat 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not ableto kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both souland body in hell

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Isa 5:14 - Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it
ok outta time for today i guess, so ill spare you the page that you prolly dont care about anyway...but long story short, you are reading from an english mistranslation, and that is not what either of those vv are saying; the first is a ref to Gehenna, when they could have used Tartarus for yyour concept of "hel," and the second is a ref to the grave, Sheol, whatever, im sure youll see.
 
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Skovand1075

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well, so you say, yesss
but prolly not, ok? ill get to the rest tonight, peace
So you’ll have to tell what specifically you are disagreeing with. Then ask a specific question. Then I can give you a specific answer. But if you’re thinking you’re going to just regurgitate the same statements as what the other person made, and that I’ll waste time responding the same way, you’re going to be holding your breath for a while.
 

Aunty Jane

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Psalm 146 reiterates the Ecclesiastes 12 verse.

I believe the soul and the spirit are both from God. As is all that exists.
I agree....all that exists IS from the Creator. But understanding how human life differs from spirit life is interesting. We know that God has millions of angels in heaven where he dwells. Each one created, as these beings do not procreate.

These spirit beings apparently need no external means to support their existence like material creatures do. But according to the Bible, even thought they can live forever, they are not “immortal” because God can destroy them, as he will satan and his minions. An “immortal” has “the power of an indestructible life”. At the outset, only God was immortal.

We see with humankind, that they were given everlasting life in paradise as a prospect, but with conditions.....obedience to their Creator was vital in order to have access to “the tree of life”...their means to keep living eternally in their mortal flesh.

Belief in the continuation of life after death was never in the minds of God’s ancient worshippers. They believed that when a “soul” (person) died, they went to their grave and awaited a resurrection, which was a return to human life in the future under the rule of God’s Kingdom. This is why it was so important to Jews to have a burial site with clear indication of the person’s name and lineage. It was like a guarantee that God would remember them.

The reason why they feared “Gehenna” (often translated “Hell” in English translations), is because “Gehenna” was Jerusalem’s garbage dump where the carcasses of dead animals and the bodies of executed criminals, (considered unworthy of a decent burial) were cast for disposal. To a Jew this meant no marked grave and hence not being remembered by God for resurrection. It was never meant to mean a place where wicked souls were tortured in flames forever. That idea came from pagan Geeks teachings about such a place. (Dante’s Inferno)

So taking scriptural examples into consideration, (the resurrection of Lazarus for example) we see that resurrection is a restoration of life, something Jesus was keen to show his disciples and others.
Reading the account we see that Jesus said Lazarus was “sleeping” and that he was going to “awaken him”. Lazarus’ sister spoke of “the resurrection on the last day” as her expectation of his future.....Jesus said that Lazarus wasn’t going to have to wait, because he was going to restore his life then and there. Lazarus was called from his tomb with many mourners present, and he came out still wrapped in his grave clothes. He had no recollection of being anywhere and was just grateful to see everyone. (John 11:1-44)

Other accounts of Jesus performing resurrections were the returning of the deceased ones alive to their grieving families. This is what God has promised to us......not an invisible part of us that goes on living.....that is a satanic lie...the first one the devil told the woman in Eden.....“you surely will not die”.....but what Jesus said in John 5:25-29...
“Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live. . . . And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man. 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

God told Adam that he would simply return to the dust, with not a single mention of any life after death......so you see where the devil plays on our inbuilt desire to go on living? We have no ‘program’ for death because we were never meant to die. It is as foreign and as feared today as it ever was because we were designed to stay forever young, healthy and happy in paradise....this is not the world God created for us to live in. This is the world satan created for those who foolishly think that they can separate from God and be happy. It is doomed, and a return to God’s original purpose is promised, with lessons learned and precedents set for all time to come.

Will we be among those who will be deemed worthy to receive the benefits of Jesus sacrifice? The majority sadly, will not. It is a free gift, but like life at the outset in Eden, it is conditional.
Those who offer Jesus their excuses at the judgment will not be eligible for the reward because they failed to “do the will of the Father”. (Matthew 7:21-23) So we need to know what that is.

Good talking with you. Not many here engage with me. :)
My pleasure....any time. We are all a work in progress.
 

Aunty Jane

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I was just re-reading the account of the first sin. Eve was the first to eat of the forbidden fruit (Genesis 3:6).

But it only makes sense that Adam and Eve were the first to sin, since they were the first on earth.
Sin and death only make sense if we were designed to be sinners and suffer death....but that was never in God’s original purpose for us. The word translated “sin” is an archery term that means to “miss the mark”....so sin is falling short or missing the target. We were not meant to sin or to experience death....it was the consequence of eating the fruit that God had placed off limits as his own private property.

Sin and death were introduced by three very disobedient persons.....one rebel spirit intent on gaining “god” status for himself, tempted the woman, and she in turn tempted the man.....the consequences were clearly stated....on the “day” that they ate, they would “die”. We see that they did not literally die physically that day, but spiritually they died from God’s standpoint and were separated from him. With the defect of sin now embodied in their DNA, imperfection was all that they could pass on to their children....Jesus came to offer his life for those children, (us) born with a sinful nature through no fault on their part.

In the Bible there are two kinds of sin mentioned.....one we inherit from our parents that gives us wrong signals about what is good and what is evil, and the other is the sin we commit in full knowledge that it is wrong, but we do it anyway. The first kind of sin is the one that Jesus came to remove.....the imperfection in our very being...the thing that causes ageing, sickness and death and often moves us to do the wrong thing.
The second kind can be forgivable, but only if a person demonstrates genuine repentance. If there is no repentance, there can be no forgiveness. Wilful sinners will never be worthy of life in God’s Kingdom.

So again, understanding how we got to be in this situation, and how Christ came to rescue those who hate sin and want it permanently removed, we can then then see what we have to do to qualify for life in the new world to come......so close now as we see this world imploding in on itself....(2 Peter 3:13)

Adam and his wife could have avoided all the consequences of their actions by just being obedient.....it is all God has ever asked of us. We can do what they refused to do.
 

Blue Dragonfly's

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I agree....all that exists IS from the Creator. But understanding how human life differs from spirit life is interesting. We know that God has millions of angels in heaven where he dwells. Each one created, as these beings do not procreate.

These spirit beings apparently need no external means to support their existence like material creatures do. But according to the Bible, even thought they can live forever, they are not “immortal” because God can destroy them, as he will satan and his minions. An “immortal” has “the power of an indestructible life”. At the outset, only God was immortal.

We see with humankind, that they were given everlasting life in paradise as a prospect, but with conditions.....obedience to their Creator was vital in order to have access to “the tree of life”...their means to keep living eternally in their mortal flesh.

Belief in the continuation of life after death was never in the minds of God’s ancient worshippers. They believed that when a “soul” (person) died, they went to their grave and awaited a resurrection, which was a return to human life in the future under the rule of God’s Kingdom. This is why it was so important to Jews to have a burial site with clear indication of the person’s name and lineage. It was like a guarantee that God would remember them.

The reason why they feared “Gehenna” (often translated “Hell” in English translations), is because “Gehenna” was Jerusalem’s garbage dump where the carcasses of dead animals and the bodies of executed criminals, (considered unworthy of a decent burial) were cast for disposal. To a Jew this meant no marked grave and hence not being remembered by God for resurrection. It was never meant to mean a place where wicked souls were tortured in flames forever. That idea came from pagan Geeks teachings about such a place. (Dante’s Inferno)

So taking scriptural examples into consideration, (the resurrection of Lazarus for example) we see that resurrection is a restoration of life, something Jesus was keen to show his disciples and others.
Reading the account we see that Jesus said Lazarus was “sleeping” and that he was going to “awaken him”. Lazarus’ sister spoke of “the resurrection on the last day” as her expectation of his future.....Jesus said that Lazarus wasn’t going to have to wait, because he was going to restore his life then and there. Lazarus was called from his tomb with many mourners present, and he came out still wrapped in his grave clothes. He had no recollection of being anywhere and was just grateful to see everyone. (John 11:1-44)

Other accounts of Jesus performing resurrections were the returning of the deceased ones alive to their grieving families. This is what God has promised to us......not an invisible part of us that goes on living.....that is a satanic lie...the first one the devil told the woman in Eden.....“you surely will not die”.....but what Jesus said in John 5:25-29...
“Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live. . . . And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man. 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

God told Adam that he would simply return to the dust, with not a single mention of any life after death......so you see where the devil plays on our inbuilt desire to go on living? We have no ‘program’ for death because we were never meant to die. It is as foreign and as feared today as it ever was because we were designed to stay forever young, healthy and happy in paradise....this is not the world God created for us to live in. This is the world satan created for those who foolishly think that they can separate from God and be happy. It is doomed, and a return to God’s original purpose is promised, with lessons learned and precedents set for all time to come.

Will we be among those who will be deemed worthy to receive the benefits of Jesus sacrifice? The majority sadly, will not. It is a free gift, but like life at the outset in Eden, it is conditional.
Those who offer Jesus their excuses at the judgment will not be eligible for the reward because they failed to “do the will of the Father”. (Matthew 7:21-23) So we need to know what that is.


My pleasure....any time. We are all a work in progress.
:) We are indeed. Thank you for sharing with us.
 
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Aunty Jane

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God's instructions to Adam tell us nothing about God's reasons for creating the earth and humankind. i thought your question was "why did God create humans and place them on the earth?", not "what did God instruct humans to do?". Similarly, why did God create the angels? What was the purpose or reason for God creating all these intelligent living beings?
God’s instructions tell us everything we ‘need’ to know, but not all that we might ‘want’ to know.
If they were given their assignment and told that everlasting life was to be enjoyed here on earth, because it was never designed to be a training ground for heaven, (which is already very populated with spirit beings) what more do we need to know?

God put us here, endowed with his attributes to be perpetual caretakers of all his earthly creation....what a wonderful assignment....and a heavy responsibility! Why would we want or need to be more than God required of us? That is what ‘hooked’ the woman in Eden...what they had was apparently ‘not enough’...the devil suggested that there was more, and they were convinced that they were entitled to it......they were wrong.....dead wrong.
 

Aunty Jane

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i more or less adhered to an ultra-literalist view for a long time, aunty, and i dont blame you for holding it, ok. But at a certain point the evidence just became overwhelming for me, that that was not going to ultimately provide the best understanding.
Would you care to elaborate on this this “point of evidence” bbyrd?
How is the “best understanding” obtained, do you think?

i say this in response to your “death” treatise, which imo is demonstrably untenable, for procreators at least. I dont think it would be completely impossible, and i might be wrong there too, but it does apparently violate other Scripture that would be pretty hard to reconcile.
Again, could you elaborate on why you believe this is impossible for procreators?

If God’s instruction was to “fill the earth” with their offspring, what do you suppose that God would do once that mandate was fulfilled? He gave us our procreative abilities in the first place in order to carry out the original assignment....so could he not then cease the procreative abilities and allow the humans to just do their job in the most idyllic of circumstances? Who could want more?
There are other options but at this point in time, would be mere speculation.

Regardless, it is for me, now, another belief that paled into insignificance after i considered that an allegory about me might be being told. I ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge, iow. purportedly.
you state this as a fact, aunty; are you sure, or is this your current belief, and you are just using shorthand?
What if it wasn’t an allegory but all true fact? The fact that we are all burdened by a sinful nature is not of our doing.....nor is it inevitable that serious sins will be committed if we follow God’s instructions. Isn’t that why he provided a written history of man’s interactions with him since the beginning? What would we understand about any of it without that instruction manual?

We choose our actions and we drive our own free will......no one can force us to violate it....not even God.
 

Bob Estey

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Sin and death only make sense if we were designed to be sinners and suffer death....but that was never in God’s original purpose for us. The word translated “sin” is an archery term that means to “miss the mark”....so sin is falling short or missing the target. We were not meant to sin or to experience death....it was the consequence of eating the fruit that God had placed off limits as his own private property.

Sin and death were introduced by three very disobedient persons.....one rebel spirit intent on gaining “god” status for himself, tempted the woman, and she in turn tempted the man.....the consequences were clearly stated....on the “day” that they ate, they would “die”. We see that they did not literally die physically that day, but spiritually they died from God’s standpoint and were separated from him. With the defect of sin now embodied in their DNA, imperfection was all that they could pass on to their children....Jesus came to offer his life for those children, (us) born with a sinful nature through no fault on their part.

In the Bible there are two kinds of sin mentioned.....one we inherit from our parents that gives us wrong signals about what is good and what is evil, and the other is the sin we commit in full knowledge that it is wrong, but we do it anyway. The first kind of sin is the one that Jesus came to remove.....the imperfection in our very being...the thing that causes ageing, sickness and death and often moves us to do the wrong thing.
The second kind can be forgivable, but only if a person demonstrates genuine repentance. If there is no repentance, there can be no forgiveness. Wilful sinners will never be worthy of life in God’s Kingdom.

So again, understanding how we got to be in this situation, and how Christ came to rescue those who hate sin and want it permanently removed, we can then then see what we have to do to qualify for life in the new world to come......so close now as we see this world imploding in on itself....(2 Peter 3:13)

Adam and his wife could have avoided all the consequences of their actions by just being obedient.....it is all God has ever asked of us. We can do what they refused to do.
When we are born we know nothing. Sooner or later we are bound to make a mistake - we all do. I suspect the Lord expects us to make mistakes, and that he expects us to learn from our mistakes.
 
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Helen

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What Are we Getting Saved From?

= the gap in the relationship that came via Adam …saved from the great separation between us and Father , bringing us back into union where like Adam did - “walk and talk with God “. :)
 

bbyrd009

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the saved receive eternal life right?
ha well sure; only in the context in which you are implying, prolly not? Do you think "eternal" means "forever?" Can you Quote anything along the lines of "'Saved means that one goes to heaven after they have died, rather than hel, to spend forever with Yah?"

what’s the purpose of the white throne judgement?
well, might be better to deal with one hairball at a time lol, but in this context i would ask why you think that occurs only after one has literally died? And yes, i get that it is worded in such a way that that is possible...even inferred, maybe. Great way to hide wisdom from the wise, i think

what’s the point of your name being called in the book of life? What happens if your name is called? What happens if it’s not called? These are questions that are better explored with those who have left the cult of sol invictus, imo, simply bc the replies would not presently be heard by you
so when you your name is called you’re saved right?
saved from what? Can you Quote that? Even once?
But to answer your q, sure, only i suggest that there is a perfectly exegesisable irl application that is rarely or never considered. exegesizable? exegeble. whatever
 

Aunty Jane

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When we are born we know nothing. Sooner or later we are bound to make a mistake - we all do. I suspect the Lord expects us to make mistakes, and that he expects us to learn from our mistakes.
If you go back to the beginning, you will see that God originally made the humans 'in his image", with no defects...and he endowed them with his moral qualities and attributes......when their children were to be born, there would have been the same perfection carried on in their DNA. No sin was there until disobedience carried with it the sentence of imperfection and death. Sin causes death, and perfect beings do not make mistakes....they make deliberate choices in full knowledge of the consequences.

Now that sin is "in our members" God does indeed take into consideration that we make errors in judgment due to our sinful condition and yes, he does expect us to learn from our mistakes.....but it is not and never was in his first purpose for mankind on this earth.

Paul wrote about a common dilemma that we all face...
"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.. . . .So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."


Thanks indeed to Jesus Christ for sacrificing his life for mine....for yours...for every one's. Yet not all will enjoy the benefits of the ransom.
 

Aunty Jane

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God put "man" on this earth for His praise, pleasure, and for His glory.
True...but that is only half the story......we are not here just for God's pleasure. We have most certainly never been the cause of any of that for him...have we? :ummm:
 

Bob Estey

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If you go back to the beginning, you will see that God originally made the humans 'in his image", with no defects...and he endowed them with his moral qualities and attributes......when their children were to be born, there would have been the same perfection carried on in their DNA. No sin was there until disobedience carried with it the sentence of imperfection and death. Sin causes death, and perfect beings do not make mistakes....they make deliberate choices in full knowledge of the consequences.

Now that sin is "in our members" God does indeed take into consideration that we make errors in judgment due to our sinful condition and yes, he does expect us to learn from our mistakes.....but it is not and never was in his first purpose for mankind on this earth.

Paul wrote about a common dilemma that we all face...
"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.. . . .So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."


Thanks indeed to Jesus Christ for sacrificing his life for mine....for yours...for every one's. Yet not all will enjoy the benefits of the ransom.
No defects? We know nothing when we are born.
 

Helen

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True...but that is only half the story......we are not here just for God's pleasure. We have most certainly never been the cause of any of that for him...have we? :ummm:

YES ..

if you ever read Gene Edwards “ Divine Romance “ that is what it’s all about .
God conceived the Plan of a Bride for His Son …it started with the slaying of The Lamb before the creation of the world ….the making man in His own image and likeness …..His Plan is still in place…
 

Aunty Jane

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No defects? We know nothing when we are born.
Its got nothing to do with what we know.....we are born "in sin" and defects in our mortal bodies can cause us to succumb to sickness and death before we even have a choice to choose right or wrong.....that is the power of sin. We have no control over when death overtakes us.
 

Aunty Jane

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YES ..

if you ever read Gene Edwards “ Divine Romance “ that is what it’s all about .
God conceived the Plan of a Bride for His Son …it started with the slaying of The Lamb before the creation of the world ….the making man in His own image and likeness …..His Plan is still in place…
I have heard this before, but it does not correspond with what the Bible says about our beginnings.

The fact is, God had to wait for his free willed children to make their decisions before he could step in with a response. When Adam chose to side with his wife instead of his God, that decision is what prompted God's plan of action.

The "bride of Christ" was not chosen before "the creation of the world" at all.....
Ephesians 1:4...."as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world..."
In Greek, this is how that verse reads....
"even as kathōs he chose eklegomai us hēmeis in en him autos before pro the creation katabolē of the world kosmos..."

"katabolē" means...
  1. a throwing or laying down
    1. the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb

    2. of the seed of plants and animals

    from G2598; a deposition, i.e. founding; figuratively, conception:—conceive, foundation."
So this is talking about the conception of Adam's children.....the beginning of the human race.....those born with an ugly inheritance of sin and death from their first father.

And "kosmos" means....
"the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family".

It does not mean the creation of the earth itself because God's purpose never included a "bride" for his son until the need arose to send him on a rescue mission for Adam's children. To assume that God planned for this all to happen as part of some strange scheme is ridiculous.....it means that God planned for man to fail and for sin to rob them of everything good that God had already given them....

There was no plan for "a bride for his son" when God created the planet......that was a contingency plan for later, after the human race was plunged into sin....not before.