The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

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BarneyFife

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This thread is not about Saturday Sabbath keeping that Seventh Day Adventists keep promoting as if it was most important command in the universe
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("Most important command in the universe?" Isn't that a little over-the-top? Methinks...)

It would almost make a person wonder why the Adventist church leaders relegated it to item #20 on the "28 Fundamental Beliefs" document (not a creed, btw), wouldn't it?

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(that was promoted by the false prophetess Ellen G. White)
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Forgive me if I'm mistaken but this seems more like a flank attack than an objection to bringing up the 4th commandment as being part of what it means to be "doing what God says" and to "believe everything in your Bible."
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That’s not the greatest commandment.
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No argument here. One main reason Seventh-day Adventists usually bring this up, though, is that it's the only commandment that begins with the word "Remember" and yet the only one that roughly 99.8% of Christians teach should be forgotten.
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The first two greatest commandments are:

#1. Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one God, and love the Lord your God with all your mind, soul, strength, heart, and to:
#2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
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Couldn't argue with this, either. Although to be fair, Christ was not here presenting New Covenant orthodoxy nearly so much as He was thwarting some clever religionists' attempt at trapping Him into self-incrimination.
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I have listed various sins we need to avoid already.
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That's commendable, I must admit.

But it's also kind of a straw man if you think about it.

Especially after claiming you know my "real agenda."

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But I know your real agenda.
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I won't say "I know" as you have done, but I'll go so far as to say I suspect that you're speaking from a place influenced by the genetic fallacy:

"Can there anything good come out of Silver Spring, Maryland—The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists?"

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Gentile believers are not under the 613 Laws of Moses.
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Well, Seventh-day Adventists don't believe that, anyway, especially since the controversial "Mitzvot," of which the most cohesive form has its origins in medieval Jewish construct, has never enjoyed consensus even among Jewish theologians. The number 613, which is so readily used by anti-sabbatarians and antinomianists everywhere, is dubious, at best. It is also full of so many duplications as to make it impractical as a code of reference of any kind.
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See Acts of the Apostles 15. Nowhere does the Jerusalem council stress believers have to keep the Sabbath.
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An argument from silence (which nearly all claims of abrogation of a commandment or commandments in the New Testament are), assuming that the Jerusalem Council, an ad-hoc committee deciding what was the most of Jewish ceremonial law to be imposed on Gentile believers by Jewish converts, somehow constitutes the whole counsel of God or "everything in your Bible."
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Nowhere in the New Testament is there a “Sabbath command” or a “Sabbath day breaking sin” listed among other sins.
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Here, again, the silence (-crickets-) speaks to us. Trouble is, Scripture, during the time of the writing of the New Testament, was the Old Testament. And if arguments from silence count for inspired instruction, where's the record of the uprising of Jews who would have, without doubt, been incensed by the overthrow of the fourth article of their beloved Decalogue?

And, not so silent, wouldn't Matthew 24:20 have been a great opportunity for Christ to not confuse his disciples by worrying them with a concern about a commandment that would, by 70 AD, 39 years after His death (which was supposed to null-and-void it) be totally obsolete?

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One has to insert this idea into Scripture to make it true.
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Again, not really, since the Bible of their time would have consisted only of the books of Genesis through Malachi.
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Colossians 2:14-17 makes it clear that we are not to let others judge us according to Sabbaths (Which would naturally include the Saturday Sabbath).
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There is no need for others to "judge" anyone in any offense deserving of conviction or condemnation since the Bible and the Holy Spirit do that as no "others" could.
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But again, this thread is not about the keeping of the Saturday Sabbath (Which is implied by your words here).
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To be sure. But it is about sanctification, which is about separation from sin, which is the transgression of the ten commandment law clearly spoken of in Romans 7:7-12.
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Bible Highlighter

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It would almost make a person wonder why the Adventist church leaders relegated it to item #20 on the "28 Fundamental Beliefs" document (not a creed, btw), wouldn't it?
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Forgive me if I'm mistaken but this seems more like a flank attack than an objection to bringing up the 4th commandment as being part of what it means to be "doing what God says" and to "believe everything in your Bible."
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No argument here. One main reason Seventh-day Adventists usually bring this up, though, is that it's the only commandment that begins with the word "Remember" and yet the only one that roughly 99.8% of Christians teach should be forgotten.
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Couldn't argue with this, either. Although to be fair, Christ was not here presenting New Covenant orthodoxy nearly so much as He was thwarting some clever religionists' attempt at trapping Him into self-incrimination.
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That's commendable, I must admit.
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I won't say "I know" as you have done, but I'll go so far as to say I suspect that you're speaking from a place influenced by the genetic fallacy:

"Can there anything good come out of Silver Spring, Maryland—The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists?"

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Well, Seventh-day Adventists don't believe that, anyway, especially since the controversial "Mitzvot," of which the most cohesive form has its origins in medieval Jewish construct, has never enjoyed consensus even among Jewish theologians. The number 613, which is so readily used by anti-sabbatarians and antinomianists everywhere, is dubious, at best. It is also full of so many duplications as to make it impractical as a code of reference of any kind.
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An argument from silence (which nearly all claims of abrogation of a commandment or commandments in the New Testament are), assuming that the Jerusalem Council, an ad-hoc committee deciding what was the most of Jewish ceremonial law to be imposed on Gentile believers by Jewish converts, somehow constitutes the whole counsel of God or "everything in your Bible."
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Here, again, the silence (-crickets-) speaks to us. Trouble is, Scripture, during the time of the writing of the New Testament, was the Old Testament. And if arguments from silence count for inspired instruction, where's the record of the uprising of Jews who would have, without doubt, been incensed by the overthrow of the fourth article of their beloved Decalogue?

And, not so silent, wouldn't Matthew 24:20 have been a great opportunity for Christ to not confuse his disciples by worrying them with a concern about a commandment that would, by 70 AD, 39 years after His death (which was supposed to null-and-void it) be totally obsolete?

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Again, not really, since the Bible of their time would have consisted only of the books of Genesis through Malachi.
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There is no need for others to "judge" anyone in any offense deserving of conviction or condemnation since the Bible and the Holy Spirit do that as no "others" could.
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To be sure. But it is about sanctification, which is about separation from sin, which is the transgression of the ten commandment law clearly spoken of in Romans 7:7-12.
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The Sabbath is something that is a part of the 613 Laws of Moses and not the Laws of Christ or the teachings from His followers (in the pages of the New Testament).

Galatians 5:3 says,
“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.”

So seeing that circumcision was not a requirement under the Laws of Christ, and circumcision was a part of the Old Law, if one teaches that they must be circumcised, they are a debtor to do the whole Law (i.e. to obey all those applicable laws within the 613 laws of Moses).

The same is true for someone promoting the Sabbath as being a necessity. If one requires one must obey the Sabbath, then they are a debtor to do all of the Old Law (i.e. those many applicable laws among the 613 laws of Moses, etc.).

Again: Your not going to find a Sabbath command, or Sabbath day breaking sin in the New Testament. So keeping the Saturday Sabbath is no longer a requirement anymore if you are New Covenant believer.

But again: This thread is not about the Sabbath or the Seventh Day Adventist church (or religion). That's a whole nother topic.
This thread is about Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism which is falsely taught in the majority of Protestantism.
 
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BarneyFife

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The Sabbath is something that is a part of the 613 Laws of Moses and not the Laws of Christ or the teachings from His followers (in the pages of the New Testament).
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A false, misleading, blanket statement that doesn't address any point that I made, but only repeats an insistence that has already been made is not compelling evidence that the 4th commandment has been wiped from the tablets of stone written with the finger of God. Christ is LORD of the Sabbath of the LORD thy God. It's right there in the Book of the New Testament.
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Galatians 5:3 says,
“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.”
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The is not sufficient evidence to refute the overwhelming myriad of scriptural evidence to support that the ten commandments have, in no way, been shortened or dissolved. Circumcision has nothing to do with the ten commandments.

Do you really believe that the word "law," when found anywhere in the New Testament, always means exactly the same thing?

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So seeing that circumcision was not a requirement under the Laws of Christ, and circumcision was a part of the Old Law, if one teaches that they must be circumcised, they are a debtor to do the whole Law (i.e. to obey all those applicable laws within the 613 laws of Moses).
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The number 613 continues to be an aberrant, invalid distraction from the issue of grace and obedience.
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The same is true for someone promoting the Sabbath as being a necessity. If one requires one must obey the Sabbath, then they are a debtor to do all of the Old Law (i.e. those many applicable laws among the 613 laws of Moses, etc.).
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No one but God is requiring anyone to obey His commandments. I do not claim, nor do I have, any authority to require anything of anyone.

And, oddly enough, this argument is never made when murder theft, adultery, and/or idolatry, etc., is brought up.

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Again: Your not going to find a Sabbath command, or Sabbath day breaking sin in the New Testament. So keeping the Saturday Sabbath is no longer a requirement anymore if you are New Covenant believer.
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Nor do I require one. The tablets of stone and the voice of God seem sufficient to validate the command. Ignoring and talking past the evidence I gave from Scripture (along with the other reams of evidence that have been accessible to nearly anyone for the last 25 years) supporting the perpetuity of the 4th commandment is not going to make it go away.
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But again: This thread is not about the Sabbath or the Seventh Day Adventist church (or religion). That's a whole nother topic.
This thread is about Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism which is falsely taught in the majority of Protestantism.
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Then why did you bring up the subject of the Seventh-day Adventist church?

I am not promoting any religion but Christianity. You mentioned Adventism in no uncertain derogatory terms first. I merely replied in kind.


And there is no basis for the obedience that must accompany belief, according to the purpose of this thread, without law. For Paul had not known sin but by the law that said "Thou shalt not covet." It is impossible to render obedience without defining it properly.

To promote an incomplete obedience in contrast to disobedience would seem to be hypocritical.

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BarneyFife

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Folks need to watch this short 15 minute video on the strong delusion mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2.


This strong delusion to believe a lie is already here!
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The two biggest warnings against apostasy in the Bible are in Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10?


Revelation 14
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
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Bible Highlighter

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The two biggest warnings against apostasy in the Bible are in Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10?


Revelation 14
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
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I think you are reading too much into what Adam said. He is not saying that is the only two biggest warnings on apostasy. Besides, it seems like you are just trying to find a fault in what he said when there is none. This means that you don’t agree with his video overall? Meaning, you don’t agree that the strong delusion to believe a lie is having pleasure in unrighteousness? That’s what Belief Alone Salvationists promote. That you can sin and still be saved. They say they don’t have pleasure in their sin, but that would be a lie otherwise they would not do the sin they are committing.
 

BarneyFife

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I think you are reading too much into what Adam said. He is not saying that is the only two biggest warnings on apostasy. Besides, it seems like you are just trying to find a fault in what he said when there is none. This means that you don’t agree with his video overall? Meaning, you don’t agree that the strong delusion to believe a lie is having pleasure in unrighteousness? That’s what Belief Alone Salvationists promote. That you can sin and still be saved. They say they don’t have pleasure in their sin, but that would be a lie otherwise they would not do the sin they are committing.
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You just might be reading too much into what I said. :)
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Bible Highlighter

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You just might be reading too much into what I said. :)
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I don’t agree. I don’t believe we would criticize a video or sermon that we would primarily agree with. One would at least praise the video if they liked it, and they could have a side bar of minor disagreement with it (if they felt it was absolutely necessary). But even the point of criticism you brought up was not what he was saying. Nowhere did Adam say that this was the only two big places in the Bible on apostasy. That’s reading too much into something he never said.
 

Bible Highlighter

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And, not so silent, wouldn't Matthew 24:20 have been a great opportunity for Christ to not confuse his disciples by worrying them with a concern about a commandment that would, by 70 AD, 39 years after His death (which was supposed to null-and-void it) be totally obsolete?

I provided an answer for you on this verse in this thread here:

Matthew 24:20 is not telling us to perpetually keep the weekly Sabbath command.


You said:
To be sure. But it is about sanctification, which is about separation from sin, which is the transgression of the ten commandment law clearly spoken of in Romans 7:7-12.

I provided an answer for you on this passage in this thread here:

Romans 7:7-12 is not telling us to keep the Saturday Sabbath Command.
 

Charlie24

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I don’t agree. I don’t believe we would criticize a video or sermon that we would primarily agree with. One would at least praise the video if they liked it, and they could have a side bar of minor disagreement with it (if they felt it was absolutely necessary). But even the point of criticism you brought up was not what he was saying. Nowhere did Adam say that this was the only two big places in the Bible on apostasy. That’s reading too much into something he never said.

I just watched the video for the first time, and I can tell you I totally and completely disagree with this guy!

He's teaching the same as you, BH, and that is Law!

It's plain to see this guy believes the same as you, we are saved by grace through faith, but to remain saved we must do and obey.

That is going back to Law, BH!

While I was listening to this guy, Lot and his family in S&G came to mind. Lot had joined himself with deceived sinners of the worst kind in S&G. He was not keeping himself from these type people and was not receiving the blessings that Abraham received.

In other words, Lot and his family were in no way doing what they knew was right, they had lost their way. So by the standard of this guy in the video, Lot was lost, he had forfeited his salvation and living in sin. They may not have been participating in those sins, but they were definitely tolerant of it! Just as some will be in the video this guy made.

So why did God send the angels to take Lot out of the city before He destroyed it? Why did the angels tell Lot they must take him and his family out of the city before S&G could be destroyed?

Because Lot was saved the same way we are! He was saved by faith in the Messiah, not by what he did!

God has a way of dealing with his disobedient children, and this guy in the video had nothing to say of that. He mentions nothing of the chastisement of God on the disobedience of His own.

So I will say it again, this guy is teaching Law and so are you, BH!
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I just watched the video for the first time, and I can tell you I totally and completely disagree with this guy!

Well, you are actually disagreeing with Scripture because that is what Adam primarily was focused on quoting.

For God sends a strong delusion to believe a lie which would be those who have pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
11 “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

In Ephesians 5:5-6 we read about this delusion or deception because Paul says be not deceived the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God because the wrath of God comes upon the children of disobedience (i.e. those who think they can sin and still be saved).

He's teaching the same as you, BH, and that is Law!

This is your problem. You see every occurence of the word “law” spoken of by the apostle Paul as referring to even the Laws of Christ when the context is the 613 laws of Moses as a whole (and not individual laws like: Do not murder, do not steal etcetera).

Paul said shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul says, God forbid (See: Romans 6:1-2).

Paul was fighting against a heresy of which I call, “Circumcision Salvationism.” This was the false belief that said you had to be first circumcised in order to be saved (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 2:3, Romans 8:1, Romans 8:9-12, etcetera).

Paul was referring to the Old Law. For Paul says, “Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.” (Galatians 4:10-11). Keeping days, months, and times and years was something that was a part of the Old Law or the Law of Moses. Circumcision was a part of the Law of Moses.

In fact, Paul basically says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. So Paul could not have been speaking against the words of Jesus or the doctrine according to godliness. In fact, Paul says God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

You said:
It's plain to see this guy believes the same as you, we are saved by grace through faith, but to remain saved we must do and obey.

Now, why would I think that way?

It's because the Bible tells me so. That's why.

Works For Salvation Verses & Passages
(After We are Saved By God’s Grace):

  1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).

  2. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

  3. 10 “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:10, and Titus 1:16).

  4. “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

  5. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

  6. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

  7. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:34-46).

  8. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

  9. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

  10. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).

  11. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

  12. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Hebrews 12:14).

  13. “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).

  14. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).

  15. “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

I did not come up with the idea for these verses above in the Bible. God ultimately did. If you have an issue with them, take it up with God.

Oh, and here is a…

Bonus verse & passage:

#16. “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).

#17. “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:7-9).
 
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Bible Highlighter

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That is going back to Law, BH!

No it isn't. Going back to the Law would be obeying things that are exclusive to the Law of Moses like being circumcised to be saved, keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the dietary laws, the holy days, etcetera. Paul basically says he is under the Law(s) to Christ (See: 1 Corinthians 9:21). The Laws of Christ are not the same thing as the Laws of Moses. You are not rightly dividing so as to see which Law Paul is talking about.

You said:
While I was listening to this guy, Lot and his family in S&G came to mind. Lot had joined himself with deceived sinners of the worst kind in S&G. He was not keeping himself from these type people and was not receiving the blessings that Abraham received.

In other words, Lot and his family were in no way doing what they knew was right, they had lost their way. So by the standard of this guy in the video, Lot was lost, he had forfeited his salvation and living in sin. They may not have been participating in those sins, but they were definitely tolerant of it! Just as some will be in the video this guy made.

So why did God send the angels to take Lot out of the city before He destroyed it? Why did the angels tell Lot they must take him and his family out of the city before S&G could be destroyed?

Because Lot was saved the same way we are! He was saved by faith in the Messiah, not by what he did!

Well, you are not accepting the whole counsel of God's Word, and you have an overactive imagination. Lot did not join himself with the sinners of Sodom. He was actually vexed by their unlawful deeds.

“And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds; ) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:” (2 Peter 2:7-9).

Lot's wife was told to not look back and she did and was turned into a pillar of salt as punishment (Genesis 19:26).
Just as we are told to not look back after putting our hand to the plow (i.e. in preaching the gospel and the Word) or otherwise we are not fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62).

Sodom is said to be an example to all who live ungodly thereafter.

2 Peter 2:5-6
“And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;”

God has a way of dealing with his disobedient children, and this guy in the video had nothing to say of that. He mentions nothing of the chastisement of God on the disobedience of His own.

No. Chastisement does not apply to those who justify sin and or who think they will be slaves to their sin always this side of Heaven.
Chastisement is for the purpose of stopping a person's sin.

You said:
So I will say it again, this guy is teaching Law and so are you, BH!

No he isn't. He does not believe we have to keep the Law of moses to be saved. Laws of Christ are a part of the faith. To say so otherwise would be simply insanity or ignorance. See Revelation 22:14-15 below for starters.

Revelation 22:14-15
14 “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.”
 
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Wynona

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Just read this in 2 Timothy 2:11-13

11 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

 

Charlie24

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Well, you are actually disagreeing with Scripture because that is what Adam primarily was focused on quoting.

For God sends a strong delusion to believe a lie which is them having pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
11 “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

In Ephesians 5:5-6 we read about this delusion or deception because Paul says be not deceived the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God because the wrath of God comes upon the children of disobedience (i.e. those who think they can sin and still be saved).



This is your problem. You see every occurence of the word “law” spoken of by the apostle Paul as referring to even the Laws of Christ when the context is the 613 laws of Moses as a whole (and not individual laws like: Do not murder, do not steal etcetera).

Paul said shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul says, God forbid (See: Romans 6:1-2).

Paul was fighting against a heresy of which I call, “Circumcision Salvationism.” This was the false belief that said you had to be first circumcised in order to be saved (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 2:3, Romans 8:1, Romans 8:9-12, etcetera).

Paul was referring to the Old Law. For Paul says, “Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.” (Galatians 4:10-11). Keeping days, months, and times and years was something that was a part of the Old Law or the Law of Moses. Circumcision was a part of the Law of Moses.

In fact, Paul basically says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. So Paul could not have been speaking against the words of Jesus or the doctrine according to godliness. In fact, Paul says God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).



Now, why would I think that way?

It's because the Bible tells me so. That's why.

Works For Salvation Verses
(After We are Saved By God’s Grace):

  1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).

  2. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

  3. 10 “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:10, and Titus 1:16).

  4. “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

  5. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

  6. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

  7. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:34-46).

  8. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

  9. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

  10. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).

  11. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

  12. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Hebrews 12:14).

  13. “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).

  14. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).

  15. “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
I did not write these verses above in the Bible. God did.
If you have an issue with them, take it up with God.

So you write me a book in response to my criticism? It's all about damage control, right BH?

I'm going to make a single response to the first thing I see that needs a response. I don't like picking posts apart dealing with several things at once. I like to make points, direct points without sidetracking if possible.

Your comment on Law is just what I would expect from someone who is making effort to keep Law.

It doesn't matter what Law we are discussing. It can be a Law of your own making, such as reading the scripture everyday, visiting and helping the poor, attending Church regularly, and many other things I could mention. Which are all good things and will be done by the believer.

But when you make any of these things, whatever it may be, a law that you do to gain favor with God, you have returned to Law.

What I see as disgusting to me in your belief, is that in order for you to remain saved you must do and obey. You have just made "doing and obeying" a Law that you must do to remain saved.

Now your salvation is based on your performance and not the performance of Christ who has obeyed all the Law His Father gave Him to do and obey. Who do you think you are?

That makes me angry, BH, that you treat my Lord and Saviour with such disrespect while calling yourself a born-again Christian!
 
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BarneyFife

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Bible Highlighter

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So you write me a book in response to my criticism?

My reply hardly was book length. It was not even the length of a short essay. But the writings I provided to you is primarily from the Bible. If your belief was biblical in the slightest sense, you would address those verses with Scripture. But seeing your belief does not really exist but only in the minds of other Belief Alone Protestants, you are naturally going to criticize what is not in line with the truth of God’s Word.

You said:
It's all about damage control, right BH?

No. It’s about preaching the Word in season and out of season (2 Timothy 4:2).

You said:
I'm going to make a single response to the first thing I see that needs a response. I don't like picking posts apart dealing with several things at once. I like to make points, direct points without sidetracking if possible.

You can explain away your non answers all you like; The simple fact is your not explaining all the verses should be a breeze and or joy to do to anyone who has the truth of God’s Word.

You said:
Your comment on Law is just what I would expect from someone who is making effort to keep Law.

It doesn't matter what Law we are discussing. It can be a Law of your own making, such as reading the scripture everyday, visiting and helping the poor, attending Church regularly, and many other things I could mention. Which are all good things and will be done by the believer.

Chapter and verse please.

Again, I already showed you verses like Galatians 5:2, and Galatians 4:10-11 that Paul is not referring to just any Law but the Law of Moses. Paul was also referring to being saved by God’s grace through faith without works involving our Initial Salvation in chapters like Ephesians 2, Romans 4, Romans 11, and Titus 3. I can show you the context of these chapters that proves this if you like, or you can just read the chapters for yourself without any Protestant Belief Alone agenda and you will see it.

You said:
But when you make any of these things, whatever it may be, a law that you do to gain favor with God, you have returned to Law.

Again, chapter and verse please. Prove that Paul is also speaking against the exclusive Laws of Christ, too. But if that is what you believe, then how do you explain 1 Timothy 6:3-4 where Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing? Jesus spoke about how sin can destroy our soul in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, etcetera.

You said:
What I see as disgusting to me in your belief, is that in order for you to remain saved you must do and obey. You have just made "doing and obeying" a Law that you must do to remain saved.

You find obeying God for salvation disgusting because God’s thoughts are not your thoughts. Neither are His ways, your ways.
(See: Isaiah 55:8-9).

See. You have things turned upside down.

For you, disobedience is the norm under God’s grace.
But Titus 2:11-12 says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

But of course you think disobedience instead of obedience is the way.

But Isaiah 5:20 says,
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”

For if you are not for obedience to God to enter the Kingdom, then you are for disobedience to enter the Kingdom of God. There is no in between choice here. It’s either obey or disobey. By what you said so far with me: You have chosen to disobey as your way to God.

You said:
Now your salvation is based on your performance and not the performance of Christ who has obeyed all the Law His Father gave Him to do and obey.

No it isn’t. Your belief is a false teaching that is the opposite of what the Bible teaches. You have merely bought into Protestant lies that has taught you this (Whereby you reject the truth of God’s Word). I already gave you the verses back in post #1072. You either deal with them or you can run away in explaining them. The choice is yours.

You said:
Who do you think you are?

A born again Christian who merely believes God’s Word plainly.

You said:
That makes me angry, BH, that you treat my Lord and Saviour with such disrespect while calling yourself a born-again Christian!

Well, sorry, my friend. Your anger is misguided by a deception of Protestant Belief Alone Salvationism that you chose to buy into. Proof? Deal with the verses one at a time that I put forth to you. Lets see if you are man enough to deal with the real truth of God’s Word instead of seeking to either ignore them or change them because you don’t like what they say.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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.
.

What you provided were answers to questions I never asked. :)
.
.

Here is an example out of English:

Bob says to Rick on the phone,
“So I walked my dog the other day
and he escaped from my leash, and ran away.”​

Rick answers,
“Oh man. Did you find him?”​

This sentence is a part of the English speaking world and it is not improper grammar. It’s pretty common actually for people to write these kinds of things.

As a matter of fact, people have been giving replies and answers on things without others asking a question since the dawn of time. It’s not a contradiction to do that. People do it all the time on this forum. They give answers on what they think the Bible says in reply to what somebody else says. You gave a response to what you believe those Bible verses say, and I gave you an answer on what I believe the Bible really says. It does not matter or not whether you asked a question. You gave a teaching that does not exist based on these verses, and my reply or answer in return was based upon the most reasonable scenario or explanation based on what the text actually says. If you don’t accept my reply or answer, that is your choice (of course).

We can agree to disagree in love and respect and move on.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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@Charlie24

You also have not really explained what your position is on 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, and Ephesians 5:5-6 (Which is a part of the video from Adam at Epiousion Apologetics).

They both appear to be connected in that a deception or delusion is going on.
The strong delusion to believe a lie are those who have pleasure in unrighteousness.

Many Protestant Belief Alone Salvationists believe they can have pleasure in unrighteousness and be saved (or at least do unrighteousness and be saved). Note: Those who say they hate their sin and have no pleasure in it are simply lying. They do the sin because they find the sin pleasurable in the moment. If they truly hated their sin, and loved God more, they would simply stop. Anyways, Paul says to be not deceived (Deception, strong delusion), the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Yet, many Protestants today say they will inherit the Kingdom despite their being unrighteous in conduct. How do you explain away these passages?
 

Bible Highlighter

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While I only provided my short list of verses in post #1072 on how works of faith (or Sanctification) plays a part in our salvation (after being saved by God’s grace), I do think these two portions of Scripture need to be added to this short list.

“But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:7-9).
 
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