@devin553344 The 'magnificat' passage in Luke is highly instructive and sublime ('my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour'); but tradition has added to it, of course.........
Sola scriptura?
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I am sorry for you.
You are so INDOCTRINATED in your Catholicism, it will take the Holy Spirit to bring unto you a revelation of salvation and the price that was paid for your soul !
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Yes mary is blessed indeed . Yet both peter and herself would have told folks not to pray to them nor any man , no , not even an angel .
There are grave and deadly doctrines within the CC , as there is even within many in the protestant realm .
Thus the answer is learn thy bibles well . Learn the biblical Christ very well . Test all spirits for many decievers are amongst us .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Many cannot see the grave dangers of the RCC . And others are fast becoming blind to those very dangers .
For more and more within the protestant realm have forsaken the right way and are becoming focused
on a wrong kind of unity which has clouded their eyes . There is good reason why GOD said not to be unequally yoked .
There is good reason why paul often told the church to correct leaven . We cannot overlook falsehoods
and sins for the sake of unity . IF One does the leaven will rise and it will fill the lump to the full .
WE See this happening even now . Under seeker friendly we saw churches begin to accept sins
and overlook errors and it grew worse and it shall get worse . WE must heed the original pattern
that Christ and the apostels did teach and do . FOR IT IS THE PATTERN INSPIRED BY GOD and ITS THE ONLY
and i do mean ONLY PATTERN that works . THE only pattern that does and will build up a church and keep it safe .
IF folks start chipping away at the things Christ taught andthose apostels taught , THEY are gonna destroy themselves
and all who sit under them and heed them . THIS IS A FACT .
I don't always agree with you amigo, but I have to say you're correct here, although the Catholic answer is that they don't pray to Mary. Although asking her to pray for them is in fact praying to her in a way.
I think the point here in praying to Mary or asking her to pray for you is the power of God. God has the only power to resurrect a person, to move mountains or deliver us from hell. Likewise he has the only power to hear prayers or requests. I honestly don't think Mary, as blessed as she is, can hear their prayers, unless God informs her of their prayers. And I'm just not sure that is honoring God.
they are supported in scripture and in Christ!
There can be no new doctrine!
Doctrine or truth is revealed by God and is immutable!
nothing added to!
Nothing taken away!
Nothing changed!
Authority of the Apostles!
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 acts 1:8 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15
Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission as Christ! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!
1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
This extends to the truth and to the church founded by Christ to teach all
men!
Cos Jesus Christ is the truth and cos His church is of divine origin, commissioned to teach the truth!
Christians must be taught and that requires humility! Lk 1:4 matt 28:19-20 matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 acts 2:42 acts 8:31
Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!
Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) holy mother church replaced Israel Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15
Authority of the Apostles!
What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?
Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission!
Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!
John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well until Christ returns in glory!
apostle means one who is sent!
Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!
The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!
Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20
Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22
Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.
Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.
Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments for the forgiveness of sin.
The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4
Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
The teaching of Peter and the apostles and successors is the teaching of Christ!
Authority in what they teach and not in a person in an office!
Jesus is not our salvation: only what He taught?
Lk 2:30 Matt 16:16 Jesus in His person is our salvation, not only in what He taught!
Matt 16:13 not what do people say about what I teach, but whom do people say the I am!
The teaching of the successors of Moses not their person?
The successors of Moses sit in the seat of Moses Matt 23:1
Peters confession not Peters person? Matt 16:18
You give the keys to a person not to a confession!
Acts 1:26 they choose Mathias not the teaching of Mathias!
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...
John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?
Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission as Christ! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!
We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Lk 10:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17 Jn 16:13 acts 2:42
Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
It is a thing unthinkable! To refuse to hear the church is to refuse to hear Christ!
Christ and His church are one. Acts 9:4
Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:
Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you
1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
That makes Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!
Obedience of the faithful Christians or spiritual anarchy of the heretical fundamentalists!
No fear!
matt 28:19 Christ is with his apostles in the church until the end
Jn 15:5 apart from him nothing
Jn 20:21-23 sent by Christ
Lk 10:16 authorized by Christ
Acts 8 angels direct the apostles
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ
Lk 1:43 mother of my Lord
notice the similarities between Luke one and king David
Ex 40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.
Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
2 Sam 6:2 And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the Lord of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims.
Lk 1:39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
2 Sam 6:3 And they set the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab that was in Gibeah: and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drave the new cart.
4 And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab which was at Gibeah, accompanying the ark of God: and Ahio went before the ark.
5 And David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals.
2 Sam 6:16 And as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord;
Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
2 Sam 6:9 And David was afraid of the Lord that day, and said, How shall the ark of the Lord come to me?
Lk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
2 Sam 6:11 And the ark of the Lord continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the Lord blessed Obededom, and all his household.
Lk 1:56 And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.
2 Sam 6:12 And it was told king David, saying, The Lord hath blessed the house of Obededom, and all that pertaineth unto him, because of the ark of God. So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obededom into the city of David with gladness.
Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Lk 1: 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying…
King David took the ark of the covenant up to the earthly Jerusalem! 2 Sam 6:10
King Jesus takes the ark of the new covenant up to the heavenly Jerusalem! Rev 12:1
Helvidius and Nestorius are excommunicated condemned heretics both in the early church:
And all Christians are bound by the apostolic tradition to believe the dogma’s of Mary most holy!
Where does the church get this power and authority?
Lk 1:43 mother of my Lord
notice the similarities between Luke one and king David
Ex 40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.
Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
2 Sam 6:2 And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the Lord of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims.
Lk 1:39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
2 Sam 6:3 And they set the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab that was in Gibeah: and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drave the new cart.
4 And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab which was at Gibeah, accompanying the ark of God: and Ahio went before the ark.
5 And David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals.
2 Sam 6:16 And as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord;
Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
2 Sam 6:9 And David was afraid of the Lord that day, and said, How shall the ark of the Lord come to me?
Lk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
2 Sam 6:11 And the ark of the Lord continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the Lord blessed Obededom, and all his household.
Lk 1:56 And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.
2 Sam 6:12 And it was told king David, saying, The Lord hath blessed the house of Obededom, and all that pertaineth unto him, because of the ark of God. So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obededom into the city of David with gladness.
Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Lk 1: 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying…
King David took the ark of the covenant up to the earthly Jerusalem! 2 Sam 6:10
King Jesus takes the ark of the new covenant up to the heavenly Jerusalem! Rev 12:1
Helvidius and Nestorius are excommunicated condemned heretics both in the early church:
And all Christians are bound by the apostolic tradition to believe the dogma’s of Mary most holy!
Where does the church get this power and authority?
WOW, men can hear men! Not news, and Not an answer to my question that you have now twice dodged answering.
You promote listening and doing what men say...EVEN WHEN they are purporting to be Speaking on behalf of Gods Word......
YET what they say IS NEVER found, verified IN Gods Word...
BUT instead is found and verified IN THEIR own “writings”.
And funny how you MIMIC those types of men...
You write a long laundry list of YOUR WORDS, as IF you are making Claims ON BEHALF of Gods Word....
Yet when one searches IN Gods Word to Find and Verify what you claim....Your claims are NO WHERE TO BE FOUND in Gods own Word.
Oh oh YOU SAY...
Who VERBALLY TOLD you that?
What Writings did you search to find that written?
Why do you HIDE, and DEFLECT when asked about what you claim?
WHO told you that?
What Writings did you search to find that written to verify what you were told?
Can you stop deflecting and give an honest forthright answer?
IF you Can’t, at least be honest enough to say you can not answer.
Lk 1:43 mother of my Lord
notice the similarities between Luke one and king David
Ex 40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.
Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
2 Sam 6:2 And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the Lord of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims.
Lk 1:39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
2 Sam 6:3 And they set the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab that was in Gibeah: and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drave the new cart.
4 And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab which was at Gibeah, accompanying the ark of God: and Ahio went before the ark.
5 And David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals.
2 Sam 6:16 And as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord;
Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
2 Sam 6:9 And David was afraid of the Lord that day, and said, How shall the ark of the Lord come to me?
Lk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
2 Sam 6:11 And the ark of the Lord continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the Lord blessed Obededom, and all his household.
Lk 1:56 And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.
2 Sam 6:12 And it was told king David, saying, The Lord hath blessed the house of Obededom, and all that pertaineth unto him, because of the ark of God. So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obededom into the city of David with gladness.
Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Lk 1: 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying…
King David took the ark of the covenant up to the earthly Jerusalem! 2 Sam 6:10
King Jesus takes the ark of the new covenant up to the heavenly Jerusalem! Rev 12:1
Helvidius and Nestorius are excommunicated condemned heretics both in the early church:
And all Christians are bound by the apostolic tradition to believe the dogma’s of Mary most holy!
Where does the church get this power and authority?
Not interested in your long laundry list of Scriptural Reverence’s...
I have looked up numerous times your Scriptural references and none say what you have claimed.
Not interested in your long laundry list of Quoted Scripture...
That none claim what you say.
Not interested in your deflection to generalization of the Apostles and subsequent teachers.
Am interested in YOUR claims about Mary....and ONE SINGLE APOSTLE’S QUOTE in their words, teaching what you claim.
* Mary ever virgin........What Apostle taught that? QUOTE him.
* Mary mother of God...What Apostle taught that? QUOTE him.
Your deflection and making long lists of irrelevant Scriptural References and irrelevant Scripture Quotes exacerbates your dishonesty...so much so, even your fellow Catholics do not comment in agreement with claims you make.
Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles!
Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1
Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42
1 Tim 3:15
Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1
Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42
1 Tim 3:15
Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!
Sacramental life: Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. Jn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
(Acts 9;4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!
Sacramental life: Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. Jn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
acts 1:8 witnesses
Perpetual Virginity of Mary!
Dogma
The official acts of the Fifth Ecumenical Council held at Constantinople in 553 refer to Mary as aeiparthenos (i.e. ever-virgin). For example, an anathema against the 'three chapters' condemns those who deny:
that nativity of these latter days when the Word of God came down from the heavens and was made flesh of holy and glorious Mary, mother of God and ever-virgin, and was born from her ...
The Lateran Council of 649 convened by Pope Martin I also issued an important statement affirming Mary's lifelong virginity:
If anyone does not, according to the Holy Fathers, confess truly and properly that holy Mary, ever virgin and immaculate, is Mother of God, since in this latter age she conceived in true reality without human seed from the Holy Spirit, God the Word Himself, who before the ages was born of God the Father, and gave birth to Him without corruption, her virginity remaining equally inviolate after the birth, let him be condemned.
Mother of God
Council Of Ephesus – 431 A.D.
If anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is God in truth, and therefore that the holy virgin is the mother of God (for she bore in a fleshly way the Word of God become flesh) let him be anathema.
Lk 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
holy apostles in council with the authority of Jesus Christ!
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Meaning ... I don't argue with people that think that the Apostles never died and are still walking the earth discussing decisions of the RCC.
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