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Selene

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And you have completely ignored what the Greek Strong's says that the word prōtotokos means. This is one of the problems with a lot of Christians on these forums. When they can't explain or don't understand something they ignore it.

πρωτότοκος - prōtotokos = first-born:- firstbegotten

There is nothing in the Greek word prōtotokos that would suggest that it means an only child. On the contrary, it tells us that Mary had at least one other child after Jesus.

And you ignore the fact that the "first-born" really means the one who opens the womb. This means that the first born could also be an only child. For example, look at the following scripture:

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Was there a second begotten Son that God brought into the world? God only brought Jesus into the world as His ONLY Begotten Son, and yet here is scripture saying God brought in the first begotten into the world. So, since you believe that the term "first born" means that other siblings were born, then who was the second begotten Son that God brought into the world? As far as I know, God only has one begotten Son whom He brought into the world. :)
 

Buzzfruit

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If Jesus did have brothers, this is the oddest response ever by Mary Magdalene:

John 20:16-18. Jesus said to her, Mary. She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, Rabboni! (which means Teacher). Jesus said to her,Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God. Mary Magdalene went and said to the disciples, I have seen the Lord; and she told them that He had said these things to her.

If Jesus really had brothers, then Mary Magdalene disobeyed one of His last instructions to her. Clearly she was a very close disciple and would have known whether or not Jesus actually had brothers. And furthermore, John in writing this passage acts as if Mary did exactly the right thing he does not explain why she went to the apostles rather than Christs brothers.

This passage is the clearest example that Jesus did not have brothers. He did have cousins, nephews, etc. and He had disciples that he considered His brethren.

Jesus did not refer to the 12 disciples as brethrens until after His resurrection. In the beginning He was there master and later on He called them friends, and after His resurrection is when He used the word brethrens. But what you are doing is simply trying to distract from what the word prōtotokos means......you are grasping at straws.

And you ignore the fact that the "first-born" really means the one who opens the womb. This means that the first born could also be an only child. For example, look at the following scripture:

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Was there a second begotten Son that God brought into the world? God only brought Jesus into the world as His ONLY Begotten Son, and yet here is scripture saying God brought in the first begotten into the world. So, who was the second begotten son of God? :)

How can I ignore something that does not say what you are saying? Am I to believe your interpretation and ignore what the word prōtotokos mean? Am I to believe that opening the womb automatically means Mary or any mother in the Bible where that is used means that she did not have another child?


Joseph did not refuse to have sex with his wife Mary after she gave birth to Jesus...did you know that? They did not have birth control pills. The other children that Mary had were from her husband, Joseph.
 

Selene

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Jesus did not refer to the 12 disciples as brethrens until after His resurrection. In the beginning He was there master and later on He called them friends, and after His resurrection is when He used the word brethrens. But what you are doing is simply trying to distract from what the word prōtotokos means......you are grasping at straws.

That is incorrect. Jesus did refer to His disciples as His brethren BEFORE His death and resurrection (See Matthew 12:48-49).


Matthew 12:48-49 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

How can I ignore something that does not say what you are saying? Am I to believe your interpretation and ignore what the word prōtotokos mean? Am I to believe that opening the womb automatically means Mary or any mother in the Bible where that is used means that she did not have another child?

You can go ahead and believe that Jesus had many biological brothers if you want. You have yet to show that what you believe is true according to Scripture and to the ancient Jewish culture of that time. It does not matter to me what you believe. I live in a country that advocates "freedom of religion"; therefore, I am not afraid to spread the good news to the pagans in a respectful way because I know that God loves them too. It was never my place to judge people of other religions. God is the only one who will judge them.
 

Buzzfruit

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That is incorrect. Jesus did refer to His disciples as His brethren BEFORE His death and resurrection (See Matthew 12:48-49).


Matthew 12:48-49 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!


Jesus was not addressing the 12 disciples, He was speaking to the crowed. And if you read what it says above that you will see that Jesus had brothers.

Matthew 12:46-47 (KJV)
[sup]46 [/sup]While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
[sup]47 [/sup]Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.


Notice that it was one of the people that told Jesus that His Mother and brothers wanted to see Him. And to which Jesus replied that His brothers, sisters and mother is not limited to those who were His biological family.
 

biggandyy

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..., there is no evidence showing that James is Jesus' biological brother. If he truely had a brother, Jesus would not have given His Apostle John to take care of His mother Mary. According to Hebrew custom, the oldest son is supposed to take care of the mother. And if the oldest cannot take care of the mother, then it would be the second oldest son. Jesus was Mary's oldest son, but because He was dying at the cross, He could not care for His mother. As He was dying at the cross, Jesus said to St. John, "Behold your mother." After that St. John took Mary in to take care of her. The fact that Jesus gave His mother to the Apostle John to take care of is evidence that Jesus did not have any younger brothers. In Hebrew culture, it would be an insult for Jesus to give His mother to the Apostle John to take care of if he actually had a younger brother.

First off, Jesus was not above insulting Hebrew culture when necessary. Second, an alternate view of the verses you are paraphrasing can be arrived upon. The reason Jesus entrusted His mother to John was that James was not a believer (yet). He simply did not want to yolk His already grieving mother with an idolatrous son who would do nothing more than chide her over and over again, "See, mom, I told you so, I told you so, I told you so."

Just as reasonable as the thesis you posit, but one I believe Scripture bears out more than the tradition of men stating Jesus was an only child (the whole cousin/son debate).
 

Selene

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First off, Jesus was not above insulting Hebrew culture when necessary. Second, an alternate view of the verses you are paraphrasing can be arrived upon. The reason Jesus entrusted His mother to John was that James was not a believer (yet). He simply did not want to yolk His already grieving mother with an idolatrous son who would do nothing more than chide her over and over again, "See, mom, I told you so, I told you so, I told you so."

Just as reasonable as the thesis you posit, but one I believe Scripture bears out more than the tradition of men stating Jesus was an only child (the whole cousin/son debate).

James was Jewish just like Christ; therefore, he was a believer. Ancient Jewish culture dictates that the next older son takes care of the widowed mother.
 

Selene

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Jesus was not addressing the 12 disciples, He was speaking to the crowed. And if you read what it says above that you will see that Jesus had brothers.

Matthew 12:46-47 (KJV)
[sup]46 [/sup]While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
[sup]47 [/sup]Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.


Notice that it was one of the people that told Jesus that His Mother and brothers wanted to see Him. And to which Jesus replied that His brothers, sisters and mother is not limited to those who were His biological family.

HELLO?? Do you not know that a disciple is a follower of Christ. Those people are His followers.....His disciples. Jesus stretched forth His hands, pointed toward those people and said, "Behold, my mother and my brethren." Jesus had many disciples, and from His many disciples, He only chose 12 to be His Apostles. His disciples AND the Apostles are His brethren. Therefore, you are incorrect when you stated that Jesus did not call His disciples "brethren" until AFTER His resurrection. I rest my case. -_-
 

biggandyy

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No, James did not believe his brother was the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

I'll type slower next time...
 

Selene

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No, James did not believe his brother was the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

I'll type slower next time...

According to the Bible, all the Apostles believed that Christ was the Son of the living God. The only reason they abandoned Christ after He was arrested was because they were afraid of getting arrested themselves....but not because they didn't believed (See Matthew 16:18-20). After Peter revealed that Jesus was Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus instructed His disciples not to tell anyone. Also, James was one of the disciples who witnessed the transfiguration of Christ (See Mark 9:2). Therefore, James was aware of who Christ was. It was not a matter of disbelief, but the fear of being arrested and persecuted. Thus, Jesus should have given James the charge of taking care of Mary if James were truly His biological brother. But He did not simply because James was not his biological brother.
 

Angelina

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HI Selene!
According to the Bible, all the Apostles believed that Christ was the Son of the living God. The only reason they abandoned Christ after He was arrested was because they were afraid of getting arrested themselves....but not because they didn't believed (See Matthew 16:18-20). After Peter revealed that Jesus was Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus instructed His disciples not to tell anyone.
The flock being scattered during this period in history was recorded in Zechariah 13:7, and also reiterated by Jesus himself in Matthew 26:31

Also, James was one of the disciples who witnessed the transfiguration of Christ (See Mark 9:2). Therefore, James was aware of who Christ was. It was not a matter of disbelief, but the fear of being arrested and persecuted. Thus, Jesus should have given James the charge of taking care of Mary if James were truly His biological brother. But He did not simply because James was not his biological brother.

The James you are referring to here (Mark 9:2) is one of the sons of Zebedee whom Jesus called "Boanerges." Son's of thunder Mark 3:17.
This is not James the brother of Jesus.

John 7:3-5 indicates that his brothers did not believe who he was...we can conclude then [based on scripture] that James, the half brother of Jesus believed after his resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Shalom!
 

Selene

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The James you are referring to here (Mark 9:2) is one of the sons of Zebedee whom Jesus called "Boanerges." Son's of thunder Mark 3:17.
This is not James the brother of Jesus.

John 7:3-5 indicates that his brothers did not believe who he was...we can conclude then [based on scripture] that James, the half brother of Jesus believed after his resurrection.

Actually, it was James, the Apostle because St. Peter was also with them at the transfiguration. St. Peter was always with the Apostles and usually acts as the spokesman for them.

As for John 7, again the word "brethren" does not mean biological brothers. The Hebrew never had a word for "cousin" or countrymen" so they use the word "brethren" (which also means brothers) in place of cousin or countrymen. In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents, descendants of parents, the Jews as a whole, etc. Therefore, the term "brethren" does refer to the cousins and even disciples of Jesus.
 

Buzzfruit

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HELLO?? Do you not know that a disciple is a follower of Christ. Those people are His followers.....His disciples. Jesus stretched forth His hands, pointed toward those people and said, "Behold, my mother and my brethren." Jesus had many disciples, and from His many disciples, He only chose 12 to be His Apostles. His disciples AND the Apostles are His brethren. Therefore, you are incorrect when you stated that Jesus did not call His disciples "brethren" until AFTER His resurrection. I rest my case. -_-


The point that I am making and to which the scriptures are clear is that Jesus had biological brothers and sisters. The other children that Mary had were from Joseph. Only as far as I know the Roman Catholic Church teach that Mary remained a virgin. I would like to know which man that loves his wife and not have sex with her throughout the marriage?
 

Angelina

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Actually, it was James, the Apostle because St. Peter was also with them at the transfiguration. St. Peter was always with the Apostles and usually acts as the spokesman for them.

As for John 7, again the word "brethren" does not mean biological brothers. The Hebrew never had a word for "cousin" or countrymen" so they use the word "brethren" (which also means brothers) in place of cousin or countrymen. In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents, descendants of parents, the Jews as a whole, etc. Therefore, the term "brethren" does refer to the cousins and even disciples of Jesus.

no...the James you speak of [who was an apostle,along with his brother John] were the son's of Zebedee. The three [Simon Peter included] were always together with Jesus during various occurrences and they had been fishing partners in the past. Luke 5:8-10.

Added: James, the brother of John was killed by Herod after the departure of Jesus.
Acts 12
1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church. 2 Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword. 3 And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also. Now it was during the Days of Unleavened Bread. 4 So when he had arrested him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four squads of soldiers to keep him, intending to bring him before the people after Passover.
Again, the three were seen as a team...

James, the brother of Jesus, was part of the council in Jerusalem, later on noted in Acts 15.

Acts 15
[sup]4[/sup]And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
[sup]13[/sup] And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: [sup]14[/sup] Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. [sup]15[/sup] And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
[sup]16[/sup] ‘ After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
[sup]17[/sup] So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.’


[sup]18[/sup] “Known to God from eternity are all His works [sup]19[/sup] Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,

Acts 21
17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

Galations 2
[sup]11[/sup] Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; [sup]12[/sup] for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. [sup]13[/sup] And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

The term brother is never used in the New Testament to denote a cousin or relative or anything other than a literal BROTHER.
  • John 1:41 He *found first his own brother Simon, and *said to him, "We have found the Messiah"
Shalom!
 
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Angelina

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What does all of this have to do with marrying outside one's faith?

The good thing about these kind of discussions, is that it also opens other [well held] theories/doctrines that can be tested against the word of God....but you are correct, probably not the right place to go branching off on another point...

Blessings!
 

us2are1

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35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

Matthew 19
10 His disciples said to Him, "If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry."
11 But He said to them, "All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given:
12 For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it."

It is for those who would be saved no matter what the cost.
 

Selene

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no...the James you speak of [who was an apostle,along with his brother John] were the son's of Zebedee. The three [Simon Peter included] were always together with Jesus during various occurrences and they had been fishing partners in the past. Luke 5:8-10.

Added: James, the brother of John was killed by Herod after the departure of Jesus.
Acts 12
1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church. 2 Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword. 3 And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also. Now it was during the Days of Unleavened Bread. 4 So when he had arrested him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four squads of soldiers to keep him, intending to bring him before the people after Passover.
Again, the three were seen as a team...

James, the brother of Jesus, was part of the council in Jerusalem, later on noted in Acts 15.

Acts 15
[sup]4[/sup]And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
[sup]13[/sup] And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: [sup]14[/sup] Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. [sup]15[/sup] And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
[sup]16[/sup] ‘ After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
[sup]17[/sup] So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.’


[sup]18[/sup] “Known to God from eternity are all His works [sup]19[/sup] Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,

Acts 21
17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

Galations 2
[sup]11[/sup] Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; [sup]12[/sup] for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. [sup]13[/sup] And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

The term brother is never used in the New Testament to denote a cousin or relative or anything other than a literal BROTHER.
  • John 1:41 He *found first his own brother Simon, and *said to him, "We have found the Messiah"
Shalom!


Hello Angelina,

Jesus did not have any biological brothers. None of the James mentioned in the Bible were Jesus' biological brother. The problem with the Hebrew and Aramaic language is that they don't have a word for "cousin." So, the word "brother' was also used for cousin. The writers of the New Testament were brought up using the Aramaic equivalent of "brothers" to mean both cousins and sons of the same father—plus other relatives and even non-relatives. When they wrote in Greek, they did the same thing the translators of the Septuagint did.

Let's look closely at James, whom some say is Jesus' brother. We know that James the younger’s mother was named Mary. Look at the descriptions of the women standing beneath the cross: "among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matt. 27:56); "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome" (Mark 15:40).

Then look at what John says: "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene" (John 19:25). If we compare these parallel accounts of the scene of the crucifixion, we see that the mother of James and Joseph must be the wife of Clopas. So far, so good.

An argument against this, though, is that James is elsewhere (Matt. 10:3) described as the son of Alphaeus, which would mean this Mary, whoever she was, was the wife of both Clopas and Alphaeus. But Alphaeus and Clopas are the same person, since the Aramaic name for Alphaeus could be rendered in Greek either as Alphaeus or as Clopas. Another possibility is that Alphaeus took a Greek name similar to his Jewish name, the way that Saul took the name Paul.

So it’s probable that James the younger is the son of Mary and Clopas. The second-century historian Hegesippus explains that Clopas was the brother of Joseph, the foster-father of Jesus. James would thus be Joseph’s nephew and a cousin of Jesus, who was Joseph’s putative son.

What does all of this have to do with marrying outside one's faith?

Nothing, it was Buzz who changed the subject when I stated that when one should allow the non-Christian member in the family first to know God and be sanctified by Him before one goes outside the family. After all, Jesus went to the House of Israel first and then sent His Apostles into the world of the Gentiles.