Are we Christians or Jews?

justaname · Nov 12, 2011

With so many people posting from the Old Testament things related to the nation of Israel, I am a bit taken back. Have we learned nothing from Paul? I completely understand principles from the Old Covenant transferring to the New Covenant, but so many have gone overboard. I honestly think many need to go back and re-read (study) our testament. We should be Christians not Judaizers.
Simple guideline to follow.

Written in the Old Testament, mentioned in the gospels, continued through Acts, expounded upon in the epistles. Something to keep practice.

Understand not all criteria need or can always be met, but this will serve as an outline.

Prentis · Nov 12, 2011

I am curious as to what you're talking about. What have you seen that seems to have to do with Judaism?

The promises to Israel are actually to Christ, and all those in him. They form the Israel of God. Thus the OT applies. But we must understand that the old covenant is a shadow of the new. The new is according to the Spirit.

Christian1488 · Nov 13, 2011

justaname said:
With so many people posting from the Old Testament things related to the nation of Israel, I am a bit taken back. Have we learned nothing from Paul? I completely understand principles from the Old Covenant transferring to the New Covenant, but so many have gone overboard. I honestly think many need to go back and re-read (study) our testament. We should be Christians not Judaizers.
Simple guideline to follow.

Written in the Old Testament, mentioned in the gospels, continued through Acts, expounded upon in the epistles. Something to keep practice.

Understand not all criteria need or can always be met, but this will serve as an outline.

Christians or Jews?

Buzzfruit · Nov 13, 2011

justaname said:
With so many people posting from the Old Testament things related to the nation of Israel, I am a bit taken back. Have we learned nothing from Paul? I completely understand principles from the Old Covenant transferring to the New Covenant, but so many have gone overboard. I honestly think many need to go back and re-read (study) our testament. We should be Christians not Judaizers.
Simple guideline to follow.

Written in the Old Testament, mentioned in the gospels, continued through Acts, expounded upon in the epistles. Something to keep practice.

Understand not all criteria need or can always be met, but this will serve as an outline.

What or whom are you referring to that you say are advocating Judaism? And what would you consider Judaism?

prism · Nov 13, 2011

I prefer to take the tack that if a teaching out of the OT or the Gospels or Revelation or even Peter and Jude and James, appear to be in conflict with Paul's Epistles, I give the more weight to Paul since he is specifically named as the Apostle to the Gentiles and has revealed the nature and standing of Christ's Body the Church made up of both believing Jews and Gentiles.

Prentis · Nov 14, 2011

Paul's focus was the gentiles, and to bring them to new life in Christ from where they were, whereas Peter, James, etc, where bringing the Jews to new life from where the Jews where. Thus the angle is very different, but the message and the arrival point is the same.

I think the best way is to look at both (Paul & Peter, James, Jude) and check that our understanding fits with BOTH what Paul says and what the others say. We've come to having a Christian culture in many parts of the world. Not that it actually follows Christ, but it is based on the New Testament, and by the same, a bit of the old too. Thus sometimes our up bringing is more like that of the Jews in Jesus time then it is as that of the Gentiles to whom Paul went.

Paul's words, because of the audience to whom they went, are difficult to understand... James, Peter, Jude, John, etc should help us understand them, rather than be put aside for the sake of our understanding of Paul.

prism · Nov 14, 2011

Prentis,

I was speaking in terms of 'conflicts'. Jesus says 'Sell all you have and come and follow me'; Paul says 'Whoever does not provide for his family is worse than an infidel'.

Prentis · Nov 14, 2011

Oh ok.

I understand that as being wisdom. Jesus was calling people then to follow him physically at that time. But we must still leave everything behind, simply, that does not mean not taking care of family.

I think we should still consider both, but rather understand what it means spiritually to leave everything behind. Paul says the same thing as Jesus when he says "I count all things as dung that I may attain Christ", and he calls all, including those with a family to take care of, to do the same.

justaname · Nov 14, 2011

Prentis said:
I am curious as to what you're talking about. What have you seen that seems to have to do with Judaism?

The promises to Israel are actually to Christ, and all those in him. They form the Israel of God. Thus the OT applies. But we must understand that the old covenant is a shadow of the new. The new is according to the Spirit.

I would say this is where we start. This is where you get the whole name it and claim it doctrine. People will site an OT command or promise to the nation of Israel and try to apply it to Christians today. Never in the bible does it say the promises to Israel are actually to Christ, other than the fact that Jesus was a Jew. If you are to say that then you would have to admit that all the laws, and we are speaking about over 600 of them, also apply to Christians. Remember our testament begins at resurrection, not Abram.

Romans 15:4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Prentis said:
Oh ok.

I understand that as being wisdom. Jesus was calling people then to follow him physically at that time. But we must still leave everything behind, simply, that does not mean not taking care of family.

I think we should still consider both, but rather understand what it means spiritually to leave everything behind. Paul says the same thing as Jesus when he says "I count all things as dung that I may attain Christ", and he calls all, including those with a family to take care of, to do the same.

In this I know Paul to be a converted Jew. I believe he was speaking of his jewish past being dung compared to his attaining Christ.
Philippians 3:3-11
Where Paul is speaking about confidence in the flesh, he speaks of works. He was a Jew's Jew, pertaining to the Law, a Pharisee, zealous against the church, blameless in righteousness. All rubbish.
Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fallen short the glory of God

Christian1488 said:
Christians or Jews?

Christians

justaname · Nov 14, 2011

Buzzfruit said:
What or whom are you referring to that you say are advocating Judaism? And what would you consider Judaism?

I would not think to single out anyone person or group, just Christians in general. Judaism, imho, would be those who try to tie us back to works.

Romans 3:19-20
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and be accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

justaname · Nov 14, 2011

Romans 6:14-15
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under the law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? May it never be.
The final phrase may be better translated, may the thought never enter your mind.

What then makes us think conditional promises made to the nation of Israel now apply to us, who are not under the Law?
Certain promises that are yet to be fulfilled apply to Israel. Do not allegorize Israel for Christian. The original authors were writing to the Hebrews, not us today, except in prophesy.

Prentis · Nov 14, 2011

justaname said:
Never in the bible does it say the promises to Israel are actually to Christ, other than the fact that Jesus was a Jew.

Actually, it does. What you say is not in agreement with Paul.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

Does this make for a 'name it claim it' theology? Only to those who are smug enough to consider themselves to already have attained. The promises are to those in Christ, now if we are in Christ, we must be wise and persevere, because we know that we take hold of the promises by patience and diligence.

God is and was (when the new covenant came) calling both Jews and Gentiles to himself, to make one new man. Israel according to the Spirit is those in Christ, these are his people, both Jew and Gentile. The promises are to Christ, and thus all those who are in him become partakers of the promises.

The Bible is not about some ethnic nation, but about God's people. God decided to start with Abraham, and to stretch this out to all nations. Now those who are his people are scattered all over the world.

The promises weren't to the Jews to start with, they were to Abraham and his seed, Christ.

Buzzfruit · Nov 14, 2011

prism said:
Prentis,

I was speaking in terms of 'conflicts'. Jesus says 'Sell all you have and come and follow me'; Paul says 'Whoever does not provide for his family is worse than an infidel'.

There's no conflict. Jesus was not saying that we all must sell what we have and follow Him. He was addressing a specific individual. The man Jesus was talking had a problem with money and martial things and Jesus knew it.....the man's god was his wealth. For some it will be other things.

Prentis · Nov 14, 2011

Well said, instead of pushing these things aside, we should seek to understand them.

It could be the difference between a 'it's not me' and a 'is it me, Lord?' attitude.

Buzzfruit · Nov 14, 2011

justaname said:
I would not think to single out anyone person or group, just Christians in general. Judaism, imho, would be those who try to tie us back to works.

Romans 3:19-20
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and be accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Much of what is said in Church from the pulpit is not always Biblically based on the New Covenant or the Bible as a whole. A lot of Churches basically use a handful of scriptures over and over again each week, so much of the other scriptures tend to be unknown to them. Some don't even back up what they say with scriptures the pertains to the New Covenant.

tomwebster · Nov 14, 2011

justaname said:
With so many people posting from the Old Testament things related to the nation of Israel, I am a bit taken back. Have we learned nothing from Paul? I completely understand principles from the Old Covenant transferring to the New Covenant, but so many have gone overboard. I honestly think many need to go back and re-read (study) our testament. We should be Christians not Judaizers.
Simple guideline to follow.

Written in the Old Testament, mentioned in the gospels, continued through Acts, expounded upon in the epistles. Something to keep practice.

Understand not all criteria need or can always be met, but this will serve as an outline.

What do you mean by the noun "Jew?" Are you thinking it is all of Israel? Not all Israelites are Jews.

justaname · Nov 14, 2011

Prentis said:
Actually, it does. What you say is not in agreement with Paul.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

Does this make for a 'name it claim it' theology? Only to those who are smug enough to consider themselves to already have attained. The promises are to those in Christ, now if we are in Christ, we must be wise and persevere, because we know that we take hold of the promises by patience and diligence.

God is and was (when the new covenant came) calling both Jews and Gentiles to himself, to make one new man. Israel according to the Spirit is those in Christ, these are his people, both Jew and Gentile. The promises are to Christ, and thus all those who are in him become partakers of the promises.

The Bible is not about some ethnic nation, but about God's people. God decided to start with Abraham, and to stretch this out to all nations. Now those who are his people are scattered all over the world.

The promises weren't to the Jews to start with, they were to Abraham and his seed, Christ.

Galatians 3:7

Thank you for your correction, this verse explains your point well also.
I apologize for being too vague on this. Yes, part of what Christ did was to create one man between jew and gentile. Agreed. And yes, everlasting promises made to Israel are just that, everlasting, so of course they will extend down to us. I do not seek to stop blessings either.

God made a covenant to Abram, extended through time to Jesus Christ. As Christians we are brought in by faith, as you point out, as sons of Abraham.
Now when God made conditional covenants with Israel it was directed to those people then.
For example, we as Christians do not sacrifice burnt offerings, yet the nation of Israel was commanded in Scripture to do so. As Christians, are we held responsible for not abiding in Scripture to what was taught to the nation people?
Certain things written in scripture applied only to those people, and not us Christians. Do not be fooled into taking the blessing side of a conditional promise.

tomwebster said:
What do you mean by the noun "Jew?" Are you thinking it is all of Israel? Not all Israelites are Jews.

I agree.

Buzzfruit said:
Much of what is said in Church from the pulpit is not always Biblically based on the New Covenant or the Bible as a whole. A lot of Churches basically use a handful of scriptures over and over again each week, so much of the other scriptures tend to be unknown to them. Some don't even back up what they say with scriptures the pertains to the New Covenant.

Some "Churches" are devils dens in disguise. Their blood is money as people pour in for healing. It can be a bit overwhelming to witness first hand, but filling a seat is more important than depth in truth.

justaname · Nov 14, 2011

It could be the difference between a 'it's not me' and a 'is it me, Lord?' attitude.

I can see I will take what you give me Lord, thank You.

Buzzfruit · Nov 15, 2011

justaname said:
Galatians 3:7

Thank you for your correction, this verse explains your point well also.
I apologize for being too vague on this. Yes, part of what Christ did was to create one man between jew and gentile. Agreed. And yes, everlasting promises made to Israel are just that, everlasting, so of course they will extend down to us. I do not seek to stop blessings either.

God made a covenant to Abram, extended through time to Jesus Christ. As Christians we are brought in by faith, as you point out, as sons of Abraham.
Now when God made conditional covenants with Israel it was directed to those people then.
For example, we as Christians do not sacrifice burnt offerings, yet the nation of Israel was commanded in Scripture to do so. As Christians, are we held responsible for not abiding in Scripture to what was taught to the nation people?
Certain things written in scripture applied only to those people, and not us Christians. Do not be fooled into taking the blessing side of a conditional promise.

I agree.

Some "Churches" are devils dens in disguise. Their blood is money as people pour in for healing. It can be a bit overwhelming to witness first hand, but filling a seat is more important than depth in truth.

I am sure some are. But I am also talking about the majority of Churches. A lot of Christians seem to value what authors put into books that they wrote than what the Bible say. They value more what is said by the pastor than what is in the Bible. To prove my point for example, most Christians believe that Heaven is where they will live but the Bible tells us that we will live on the Earth.

Prentis · Nov 15, 2011

I agree that we are not under the old law, that is, the law of Moses about sacrifice and everything. This was a shadow of what was to come.

We are still to obey THIS law:
Romans 8:4
that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor;therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Thus in love, we fulfill the law, and the righteous requirement.

I see everything in the OT to represent something spiritual. I agree there is a danger in taking the promises in a carnal sense, or to try and take them by our own hand.

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