Who can give an answer?

face2face · Sep 2, 2022

PinSeeker said:
Well, this issue really their appearance at Christ's transfiguration. The transfiguration confirms Jesus’ appointment as a special messenger of God ~ like Moses and Elijah who received revelation from God on Mount Sinai, also called Mount Horeb (Exodus 19–24; 1 Kings 19), Jesus likewise meets with God on a mountain. Yet Jesus is greater than these because the Father’s declarations about Him make Him the object of revelation (Matthew 17:5), rather than merely the recipient of it. Also, Moses and Elijah represent the Law and the Prophets, respectively. Their appearance with Christ confirms His fulfillment of the old covenant revelation found in the Old Testament.

Grace and peace to you.

All of what you write is true especially that of the Law and Prophets however this being represented in these men it was a particular work which spoke to Moses, Elijah and Jesus.

Luke 9:31 They (Moses & Elijah) appeared in glorious splendor and spoke about his departure (Gk: exodus) that he was about to carry out at Jerusalem

First clue:

What was the Lords exodus? and how does it relate to Moses and Elijah?

face2face · Sep 2, 2022

PinSeeker said:
Well, this issue really their appearance at Christ's transfiguration. The transfiguration confirms Jesus’ appointment as a special messenger of God ~ like Moses and Elijah who received revelation from God on Mount Sinai, also called Mount Horeb (Exodus 19–24; 1 Kings 19), Jesus likewise meets with God on a mountain.

And for the first time you have the Law and the Prophets focusing together on the Lord (imagine that!). A board member here stated we are not told the details of that conversation, however we are given a huge clue in Luke 9:31 as to the nature of that discussion - which also relates to why God choose Moses and Elijah to speak with him before he suffered.

It's beautiful because it's identifies with the great plan and purpose of God in His Son and His People Israel.

face2face · Sep 2, 2022

The answer of Moses & Elijah...

Thanks all for your contribution!

BeyondET · Sep 3, 2022

Mark 6:15 was a reason as well

15But others said, It is Elijah. And others said, [It is] a prophet, [even] as one of the prophets.

More than likely imo the main reason for it in that time when people were second guessing, and also today the many reasons for it.

lightlysalted · Sep 3, 2022

face2face said:
True, of Moses it is written:

He (God) buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.

Be true of Elijah also.

But it's not so much in their death but in their purpose which they share a commonality.

Cheers
F2F

I know the story of Moses and his purpose to save Israel (physical) from Egypt. (Come out of her my people)
I know the story of Jesus and his purpose to save Israel (spiritual) from the world. (Come out of her my people)
I need to study Elijah more.

Hugs

farouk · Sep 3, 2022

lightlysalted said:
I know the story of Moses and his purpose to save Israel (physical) from Egypt. (Come out of her my people)
I know the story of Jesus and his purpose to save Israel (spiritual) from the world. (Come out of her my people)
I need to study Elijah more.

Hugs

Interesting perspective there, Ziggy.........

face2face · Sep 3, 2022

lightlysalted said:
I know the story of Moses and his purpose to save Israel (physical) from Egypt. (Come out of her my people)
I know the story of Jesus and his purpose to save Israel (spiritual) from the world. (Come out of her my people)
I need to study Elijah more.

Hugs

You know whats interesting about the story of Elijah? He was consistently frustrated by being sent to the Gentiles, when all he wanted to do was redeem Israel from Idolatry and he never got the opportunity!...he will!

face2face · Sep 3, 2022

lightlysalted said:
I know the story of Moses and his purpose to save Israel (physical) from Egypt. (Come out of her my people)
I know the story of Jesus and his purpose to save Israel (spiritual) from the world. (Come out of her my people)
I need to study Elijah more.

Hugs

I love your honesty - to be commended!

lightlysalted · Sep 3, 2022

face2face said:
You know whats interesting about the story of Elijah? He was consistently frustrated by being sent to the Gentiles, when all he wanted to do was redeem Israel from Idolatry and he never got the opportunity!...he will!

The thing about Elijah that gets me, is when the disciples ask Jesus if they should send fire down upon the town. And Jesus says, Ye know not what spirit ye are of... I'll find it.
Luk 9:51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
Luk 9:52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Luk 9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

He sent messengers before him, makes me think of the two witnesses in Revelation that would not receive them.
Perhaps Moses (law) and Elijah (prophets) were both sent to the Samaritans (Gentiles) and they would not receive them.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Now 1260 days is just short of 3 1/2 years. The same amount of time as Jesus' ministry.

When Jesus is giving the proverb concerning Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man tells Abraham to send someone from the dead to warn his brethren. But Abraham (faith) replies:

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I believe their all related.
hugs

farouk · Sep 3, 2022

lightlysalted said:
The thing about Elijah that gets me, is when the disciples ask Jesus if they should send fire down upon the town. And Jesus says, Ye know not what spirit ye are of... I'll find it.
Luk 9:51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
Luk 9:52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Luk 9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

He sent messengers before him, makes me think of the two witnesses in Revelation that would not receive them.
Perhaps Moses (law) and Elijah (prophets) were both sent to the Samaritans (Gentiles) and they would not receive them.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Now 1260 days is just short of 3 1/2 years. The same amount of time as Jesus' ministry.

When Jesus is giving the proverb concerning Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man tells Abraham to send someone from the dead to warn his brethren. But Abraham (faith) replies:

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I believe their all related.
hugs

Ziggy.........Interesting things happened on the road to and from Jerusalem; I think of the highly instructive events on the road to Emmaus, for example............

face2face · Sep 3, 2022

lightlysalted said:
The thing about Elijah that gets me, is when the disciples ask Jesus if they should send fire down upon the town. And Jesus says, Ye know not what spirit ye are of... I'll find it.
Luk 9:51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
Luk 9:52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Luk 9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

He sent messengers before him, makes me think of the two witnesses in Revelation that would not receive them.
Perhaps Moses (law) and Elijah (prophets) were both sent to the Samaritans (Gentiles) and they would not receive them.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Now 1260 days is just short of 3 1/2 years. The same amount of time as Jesus' ministry.

When Jesus is giving the proverb concerning Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man tells Abraham to send someone from the dead to warn his brethren. But Abraham (faith) replies:

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I believe their all related.
hugs

Unfortunately Christians generally misinterpret Revelation 11 incorrectly, which I wont go into now in this thread. Needless to say, the two witnesses are killed which is impossible of immortal men (Revelation 11:8). That chapter is highly symbolic of events which are now past. I'm of the belief we must take care when stringing different passages together as they each have their own meaning and context.
F2F

Earburner · Sep 3, 2022

face2face said:
No that's not the reason though its possible.
They cannot answer this question or know its answer because of their teaching. Once you form a wrong doctrine it prohibits you from finding a right answer. For instance, the JW might say - there is no reason why God choose Moses and Elijah it was merely random and without meaning. Or they might come up with some other reason; whatever the case - Biblical truth is alluded from them because they hold a position of error. As we might see it was 100% critical for Moses and Elijah to be there for very sound reasons. As I said I doubt many here will know the answer - but I have been surprised before! There are some real thinkers in this forum.
Are you one of them?

1. 500 years+/- had passed upto Jesus' first appearance.

2. Making images of people was against the 2nd commandment, therefore the three disciples had no visual memory of what Moses or Elijah looked like.

3. Malachi 3:16 explains that those who died, and were of faith from out of Israel, had their names written in "a book of Remembrance" before God. All of such were still waiting for "The Promise" of Eternal Life. They are figuratively seen in Revelation 6:9-11.

4. It would have been impossible for Mose and Elijah to appear alive, because no one could be living after death until after Jesus' first resurrection. Only He is the firstborn from the dead.

5. Jesus said in John.1[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

My conclusion: in the transfiguration of Jesus, the disciples saw two angels talking with Jesus.

"There can always be more than one lie, but there can never be more than one truth"- Earburner

lightlysalted · Sep 3, 2022

face2face said:
Unfortunately Christians generally misinterpret Revelation 11 incorrectly, which I wont go into now in this thread. Needless to say, the two witnesses are killed which is impossible of immortal men (Revelation 11:8). That chapter is highly symbolic of events which are now past. I'm of the belief we must take care when stringing different passages together as they each have their own meaning and context.
F2F

Literally or symbolically?

I believe all of Revelation is symbolic. And all of the events written in it are already accomplished.
But we don't "see" the results yet because we are still carnal.
We still have Moses and Elijah with us until this day. We still have our bibles.
But there is coming a time.... in the near future where they will try to destroy that book.

People say Religion and Politics don't mix. I say if your not watching politics your going to miss the whole event.
History repeats itself, and right now we are on the precipice of a new day.
We are in the culmination of Egypt, Sodom, and Jerusalem. All three are present at this moment.
If your watching current events you can see it clearly.
Scary days are upon us for those who have "little" faith.
But I live by Ephesians chapter 6 and I have my armor on all the time.

I believe the Lord's army is very large indeed. We are the silent majority.
hugs

face2face · Sep 3, 2022

lightlysalted said:
Literally or symbolically?

I believe all of Revelation is symbolic. And all of the events written in it are already accomplished.
But we don't "see" the results yet because we are still carnal.
We still have Moses and Elijah with us until this day. We still have our bibles.
But there is coming a time.... in the near future where they will try to destroy that book.

People say Religion and Politics don't mix. I say if your not watching politics your going to miss the whole event.
History repeats itself, and right now we are on the precipice of a new day.
We are in the culmination of Egypt, Sodom, and Jerusalem. All three are present at this moment.
If your watching current events you can see it clearly.
Scary days are upon us for those who have "little" faith.
But I live by Ephesians chapter 6 and I have my armor on all the time.

I believe the Lord's army is very large indeed. We are the silent majority.
hugs

Revelation uses symbolic imagery to speak of literal events, most of which has taken place, though from Revelation 16:15 on-wards, these events are yet to take place. The book is historical, not futurist. It was given by the Lord initially to the Seven Churches then to those true believers over the past 2000 years who required encouragement and a vision to keep their faith strong. I'm reticent to get into the Revelation because it's very complex and requires a lot of time to unpack the imagery. Look at how much work it takes just to show an understanding of the work of Elijah and that's plainly stated.

Revelation 16 is our Olivet Prophecy!

Bob Estey · Sep 3, 2022

face2face said:
I ask again....Do you know why Elijah & Moses were chosen of all the OT faithful to encourage Jesus before his crucifixion? Mark 9

This question and its answer is precisely why this below thread is essential for the Christian to learn and follow.

I will send my messenger

Give it a go...I'll be very surprised if a correct answer can be gleaned - one thing is for sure the JW cannot answer it!

I didn't think Jesus needed any encouragement to do what he intended to do, not that he wouldn't have appreciated it.

Ronald David Bruno · Sep 3, 2022

face2face said:
I ask again....Do you know why Elijah & Moses were chosen of all the OT faithful to encourage Jesus before his crucifixion? Mark 9

This question and its answer is precisely why this below thread is essential for the Christian to learn and follow.

I will send my messenger

Give it a go...I'll be very surprised if a correct answer can be gleaned - one thing is for sure the JW cannot answer it!

They were not sent to encourage God the Son. They were witnesses to His glory for the disciples to see.
To see the former prophets in a spiritual glorified state would give them encouragement and understanding about 1. That after death there is life (Moses being an example of a person who died and is spiritually alive); 2. The resurrection will also occur when people are alive who have not died (Elijah being an example of someone who did not die and was translated).

Earburner · Sep 3, 2022

Ronald David Bruno said:
They were not sent to encourage God the Son. They were witnesses to His glory for the disciples to see.
To see the former prophets in a spiritual glorified state would give them encouragement and understanding about 1. That after death there is life (Moses being an example of a person who died and is spiritually alive); 2. The resurrection will also occur when people are alive who have not died (Elijah being an example of someone who did not die and was translated).

"(Elijah being an example of someone who did not die and was translated)".

Really?
How did that happen before Jesus resurrection, and the giving of God's Gift of the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit on Pentecost and thereafter? KJV Romans 8:9

Ronald David Bruno · Sep 3, 2022

Earburner said:
"(Elijah being an example of someone who did not die and was translated)".

Really?
How did that happen before Jesus resurrection, and the giving of God's Gift of the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit on Pentecost and thereafter? KJV Romans 8:9

He was taken up spiritually while physically alive, not resurrected, but represents this future event.

Earburner · Sep 3, 2022

Ronald David Bruno said:
He was taken up spiritually while physically alive, not resurrected, but represents this future event.

Only God is Holy.
How did Elijah have a spirit, whereby he could be translated to God's Heaven?
Did God put His Holy Spirit permanently within Elijah, so that he could be first before Jesus?
How does anyone go to Heaven without the shed blood of Christ, which is the only means by which one is made to be holy?

Ronald David Bruno · Sep 3, 2022

Earburner said:
How did Elijah have a spirit, whereby he could be translated to God's Heaven?

2 Kings 2:1, 11
2 When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal...

11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

We are made in God's image. That is we have a mind, will, emotions, with creative abilities and a spirit. Evidently God allowed both Enoch and Elijah up to heaven/paradise.
Enoch taken/ translated:
KJV
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Hebrews 11:15

NKJV
By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Hebrews 11:15

Earburner said:
Did God put His Holy Spirit permanently within Elijah, so that he could be first before Jesus?

I did not say that. But you must realize that the Holy Spirit came upon the Prophets, spoke through them, performed miracles through them. How else would the Word of God be written exactly, word for word as God instructed? The Holy Spirit dwelled in the Temple, but is omnipresent.
Time is a part of our physical dimension. So Christ's sacrifice was imputed to Old Testamnet saints, outside of time. We live in a tension between the ready and not yet. I don't know for sure; but people have been allowed to visit heaven and so evidently their visit was extended. Maybe this is why Elijah must come back and die - Enich too?

Earburner said:
How does anyone go to Heaven without the shed blood of Christ

Paradise ... heaven, likely the same location. Remember in the Old Testament, the afterlife was divided into two realms, Hades and Paradise (some called it Abraham's bosom.) Was paradise actually just another name for heaven? Heaven is where God's throne is but also is described as looking like a perfect earth, very colorful.. In Luke 16, we read the story of the Rich man and Lazarus. Jesus promised the dying man next to Him on a cross that he would be in Paradise - TODAY. Jesus, when died and rose,, opened the gates of heaven and brought the OT saints there.

Who can give an answer?

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