Was Paul stating a church doctrine when he said that he did not permit a woman to teach in the churc

Vengle · Nov 15, 2011

And what about head coverings? Was Paul there stating a doctrine of the church?

Or was Paul actually merely expounding on the operation of love in the church, refining details as to how that love ought to work?

If the latter is true, that Paul was actually merely expounding on the operation of love in the church, refining details as to how that love ought to work, then, was Paul telling us that all of the churches in any age should require that no woman teach in the church and that any woman who prays in the church must wear a head covering?

Or, would that inflexibility of itself cause those things to at times violate the very principle of love that Paul was teaching?

1 Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

1 Corinthians 11:5-6 "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered."

Subjects such as these demonstrate our spiritual balance and show how well we have captured the pulse of the love that is God's.

Comm.Arnold · Nov 15, 2011

I think he was just telling the truth, women are a burden especially in church. The church I go to suffers because they have women in positions of power over men. The girl who sings is always checking out my junk and squirming away as she is worshipping I find it really difficult to enjoy the service somedays.

As a speaker he was possibly speaking from personal experience as women try and drag down upright religious men in positions of power. I like that part about if they learn anything then ask their husbands at home. They sure do blurt out a lot of offensive and incorrect statements sometimes. I hate to say this but I can honestly see why some of those middle eastern countries treat women as strictly as they do. I am also just venting because this loser of a girl tried to get me kicked out of my own church recentley because I find her in no way attractive and she wants me.

Vengle · Nov 15, 2011

Comm.Arnold said:
I think he was just telling the truth, women are a burden especially in church. The church I go to suffers because they have women in positions of power over men. The girl who sings is always checking out my junk and squirming away as she is worshipping I find it really difficult to enjoy the service somedays.

As a speaker he was possibly speaking from personal experience as women try and drag down upright religious men in positions of power. I like that part about if they learn anything then ask their husbands at home. They sure do blurt out a lot of offensive and incorrect statements sometimes. I hate to say this but I can honestly see why some of those middle eastern countries treat women as strictly as they do. I am also just venting because this loser of a girl tried to get me kicked out of my own church recentley because I find her in no way attractive and she wants me.

:lol: I am not laughing at your sincerity. That I applaud. Such honesty is rare. And before we can weed out of us the things that need to be weeded out we need to become able to be that honest.

I am laughing because having read so many of your posts I know that I can expect that kind of honesty from you. You are a precious individual!

You have it right when you said, "he was possibly speaking from personal experience."

It goes a bit deeper than that, though. He was not only speaking from his personal experience (though he was that also as indicated by his saying to Timothy, "I suffer not") but he was speaking with regard to two other things; with regard to respecting the customs of the day and with regard to maintaining an orderly procession of things in the church whereby confusion could be kept to a minimum and learning for all would come easier, especially for those new to the faith.

I will pause there and wait for more comments before elaborating any further.

Comm.Arnold · Nov 15, 2011

Vengle said:
:lol: I am not laughing at your sincerity. That I applaud. Such honesty is rare. And before we can weed out of us the things that need to be weeded out we need to become able to be that honest.

I am laughing because having read so many of your posts I know that I can expect that kind of honesty from you. You are a precious individual!

You have it right when you said, "he was possibly speaking from personal experience."

It goes a bit deeper than that, though. He was not only speaking from his personal experience (though he was that also as indicated by his saying to Timothy, "I suffer not") but he was speaking with regard to two other things; with regard to respecting the customs of the day and with regard to maintaining an orderly procession of things in the church whereby confusion could be kept to a minimum and learning for all would come easier, especially for those new to the faith.

I will pause there and wait for more comments before elaborating any further.

Thanks for hearing me out and not being too offended I get into trouble for my brutal honesty sometimes as these women do not like to look in the mirror and face the the truth about themselves. As for personal experience do you have any you would like to share ? As we have been beaten back to sharing on internet forums under the tyranny of feminine rule.

Those verses do sound pretty harsh towards "the fairer sex" but I think Paul was in the right spirit he almost says those things in fear though.

aspen · Nov 15, 2011

It sure would be great if we had the letters from the chuches to Paul. Many of his letters were responses to specific concerns expressed in letters written to Paul. We would have a much better idea about Pauls compassion in specific situations, which many not apply to the universal church.......like limiting all women from talking in church or teaching men.

Vengle · Nov 16, 2011

Comm.Arnold said:
Thanks for hearing me out and not being too offended I get into trouble for my brutal honesty sometimes as these women do not like to look in the mirror and face the the truth about themselves. As for personal experience do you have any you would like to share ? As we have been beaten back to sharing on internet forums under the tyranny of feminine rule.

Those verses do sound pretty harsh towards "the fairer sex" but I think Paul was in the right spirit he almost says those things in fear though.

Yes but we men have our fair share of that mirror trouble. I tend to see that we men have used our women (speaking as a man of the world) as toys for our fascination. We have in that sense set them on a pedestal of physical desire as goddesses. Our mass numbers rendering them a form of vein if not worshipful praise targeted at their physical traits has shaped them to be what the common woman of the world today is. And we have done that from the moment that Adam listened to Eve over God, so that we created the creature we then found the need to dominate as it was powerful against us.

Can you see that? Think about the propriety of God allowing that. Paul said, 1 Corinthians 11:7 "For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, for as much as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man."

Just as man taught of God was created to be the direct image and glory of God, a woman is that same kind of reflection of the man.

So then, it is we men by our falling away from God's direction of ourselves who bear the responsibility for what we have made our women to be.

Imagine you were a woman. We even as men like to have the attention and respect of others. Imagine that you could get a pseudo brand of that (an illusion of the genuine thing) merely by primping your physical attractiveness. Do you then see how we have placed such extreme temptation in their path?

Before we men can assume our headship roles in a proper way (in a way which neither abuses women nor which encourages women to see themselves as goddesses to toy back with men) we must first focus on seeing our own defect.

And that is what I believe to be the wisdom of God allowing this to come as a fruit of what we men have sown.

Vengle · Nov 16, 2011

aspen said:
It sure would be great if we had the letters from the chuches to Paul. Many of his letters were responses to specific concerns expressed in letters written to Paul. We would have a much better idea about Pauls compassion in specific situations, which many not apply to the universal church.......like limiting all women from talking in church or teaching men.

For sure it would be! It is though kind of like Peter's saying, John 13:9 "... Lord, [wash] not my feet only, but also my hands and my head." For God has not left us without what we need. The context reveals a great deal to us about what Paul said.

Of course I have no doubt you know that and that is not what you are saying. But it would be nice to have to have the so much more that Paul must have said and wrote.

That puts me in mind also of what was said about Jesus: John 21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

I believe that we will have access to all of that in the thousand years to come.

What say you?

Comm.Arnold · Nov 16, 2011

Vengle said:
Yes but we men have our fair share of that mirror trouble. I tend to see that we men have used our women (speaking as a man of the world) as toys for our fascination. We have in that sense set them on a pedestal of physical desire as goddesses. Our mass numbers rendering them a form of vein if not worshipful praise targeted at their physical traits has shaped them to be what the common woman of the world today is. And we have done that from the moment that Adam listened to Eve over God, so that we created the creature we then found the need to dominate as it was powerful against us.

Can you see that? Think about the propriety of God allowing that. Paul said, 1 Corinthians 11:7 "For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, for as much as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man."

Just as man taught of God was created to be the direct image and glory of God, a woman is that same kind of reflection of the man.

So then, it is we men by our falling away from God's direction of ourselves who bear the responsibility for what we have made our women to be.

Imagine you were a woman. We even as men like to have the attention and respect of others. Imagine that you could get a pseudo brand of that (an illusion of the genuine thing) merely by primping your physical attractiveness. Do you then see how we have placed such extreme temptation in their path?

Before we men can assume our headship roles in a proper way (in a way which neither abuses women nor which encourages women to see themselves as goddesses to toy back with men) we must first focus on seeing our own defect.

And that is what I believe to be the wisdom of God allowing this to come as a fruit of what we men have sown.

That is for sure we get too carried away with their outward appearances, I almost do it on purpose, I also find that the whole being of a woman is better if she is beautiful on the inside it shows on the outside. Some women look like a pig and act like a pig .... you know the rest. It goes for both sexes though I have spent too much time in the gym before getting my biceps just right just looking in the mirror for hours on end. It is not necessary but there is some value in having a clean healthy body and eating right. Any ways I ramble about my odd experiences, what qualities do you think we should look for in a wife ? I also believe as the leader we can instill good things in a woman.

Vengle · Nov 16, 2011

Comm.Arnold said:
That is for sure we get too carried away with their outward appearances, I almost do it on purpose, I also find that the whole being of a woman is better if she is beautiful on the inside it shows on the outside. Some women look like a pig and act like a pig .... you know the rest. It goes for both sexes though I have spent too much time in the gym before getting my biceps just right just looking in the mirror for hours on end. It is not necessary but there is some value in having a clean healthy body and eating right. Any ways I ramble about my odd experiences, what qualities do you think we should look for in a wife ? I also believe as the leader we can instill good things in a woman.

God did do a marvelous job of designing women to be our compliment. He designed them in a way that is most pleasing to us physically. And that is precisely where we having abandoned our spiritual eye-sight for so long have run into trouble, so easily becoming obsessed with the physical. God is not a prude or He would not have designed them that physically appealing. But apart from our being regulated in our love after His image, we love what we can see; for we cannot love what we cannot see.

That is also why God first loved us in our spiritual blindness that we might know His love and begin learning to see what was hidden from us.

These things remain hidden for the most part from the unbeliever and those only beginning to gain their spiritual eyes. I say, "for the most part" because in the world today there are more who do have those spiritual eyes developed thanks to God's loving kindness and these ones serve to give a glimpse of those hidden things to the as yet unbeliever and the spiritual babes. (The light to the world.) And this is a most central understanding that Paul had. We can see it if we know to look for it in his letters.

What qualities do I think we should look for in a wife ? The quiet and mild spirit is number one. Not that she cannot be outgoing and zesty, but that she would demonstrate the quietness of patience and trust toward her husband, especially when critical decisions needed to be made as a couple. She (as we also ourselves) should show meekness to learn from her husband and he the humility to learn from her. It takes time to learn whether these things exist in a prospective mate. And these things must be consciously and deliberately searched out in a potential partner. We need to think of ways to do that instead of letting ourselves be constantly side-tracked by the sensual pleasures which are the root of rose colored glasses.

As you said, "I also believe as the leader we can instill good things in a woman."

That happens as a product of the wisdom and knowledge from God that we know what to look for and we reward the right things, the honorable things per God's view of us in His image.

People become better in what they are rewarded for. That is true of child or adult, male or female. And when people do not receive reward they cease being what does not gain them reward. That is where the problem is among the ungodly in that they do reward each other for the wrong things and so remain stuck.

Does that make sense?

I believe with that understanding we can proceed to think of those ways for ourselves with the aide of God's Word.

Comm.Arnold · Nov 16, 2011

Oh yeah Vengle beautiful post, did God tell you to say that ?

I can feel some good influence in your words. I like the part about the quiet and mild spirit should be number one. I almost married this crazy girl a few years ago she claimed to be christian yet was so desperate for sex it ruined our relationship. She would tell almost anyone about the sex we were going to have and I tolerated it for 8 months. Anyways I think at one point God grabbed me by the scruff of my neck and pulled me away from her because it was all her urges controlling anything and I didn't see it. She told me she was going to make me rich overnight because of her wealthy family and I stupidly let that get to my head.

Vengle · Nov 16, 2011

Comm.Arnold said:
Oh yeah Vengle beautiful post, did God tell you to say that ? I can feel some good influence in your words. I like the part about the quiet and mild spirit should be number one. I almost married this crazy girl a few years ago she claimed to be christian yet was so desperate for sex it ruined our relationship. She would tell almost anyone about the sex we were going to have and I tolerated it for 8 months. Anyways I think at one point God grabbed me by the scruff of my neck and pulled me away from her because it was all her urges controlling anything and I didn't see it. She told me she was going to make me rich overnight because of her wealthy family and I stupidly let that get to my head.

It is good that you had love of God in you and the care for what is right in His eyes that you were able to grabbed of Him in that manner. We are so very dependent on that quickening word which He has instilled in us that through it he can direct the path of our feet. And we first need a conscious recognition of that and then to learn how it works that we can become consistent at letting Him do the directing of us. Sounds like the old devil was using her for her vanity.

These things we are speaking about and how it is this knowledge was hidden from us is all Paul meant even when He spoke of the mysteries of God. Paul merely meant that those things were mysteries to our carnal mind, the mind that tries to operate independent of spiritual eye-sight (thus independent of God even when it imagines it is depending on God) and so it is limited to knowledge mostly of what is visible to it only on the physical plain. True discernment is not there because the wisdom is weak, it being starved of the deeper knowledge of God which we should have in His image.

Spiritual eye-sight is limited also by our failing to use it when we need to use it. We do not use it to investigate things until we consciously make a decision to do so. Sure, there is some subconscious learning that occurs with it also but for the most part we must consciously choose to examine things using our spiritual eye-sight. And we don't do that until something causes us to think of those things we need to find spiritual answers for.

Prentis · Nov 16, 2011

Good subject, Vengle!

In the Spirit there is freedom... Freedom to glorify God! Studying all these scriptures in depth, seeking out context, etc, is a sizable task. In short I would say that these pertain to order. Man is the head of the woman, as Christ is the head of the church.

On women being silent in the church: I understand this to be wives. Why? Because of context; 'let her ask her husband'. A woman should not be individually taught of another man than her husband. This is wise and right. It also represents the leading of the church by Christ.

I see much wisdom in what you say, brother, and I see the love and freedom that is in the Spirit, where there is also order, in your understanding of this. It is the religiosity of man which turns these into religious practices rather than seeing in them the order of God, and abiding in these by love for God.

Shirley · Nov 16, 2011

Most men can not stand to have a woman tell them what to do. Once I was secretary of a home Improvements Company. All the men loved me and respected me. At some point I was put in charge of running the company. Almost immediately some of the men disliked me. The reason? I was handing out the work orders. How dare a woman tell a man what to do! Give her a spirit of Shame!

HammerStone · Nov 16, 2011

I say let Scripture interpret Scripture.

First and probably foremost for me is that this passage is rarely ever examined in light of Mark 10:8.

Mark 10:7-9 HCSB

For this reason a man will leave
his father and mother
and be joined to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh.
So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, man must not separate.

Jesus is, of course, speaking of divorce in the Mark passage, but he's really putting out the "secret" of successful marriages. How does that apply here you ask?

Well, let me start by saying that Paul's letters were written, as any letter would be written, to address a specific situation. Obviously, as these were divinely canonized by God, we are not to simply say that this was a Timothy or Corinthian problem and therefore we should learn from them. I think we should keep that in mind. I do not see great evidence for Paul merely writing this letter just to put women in their place, but he was in fact writing it to address a specific set of issues/grievances.

Recall that Jesus established a marriage is one flesh. Now back up to I Timothy 2:8 where he's addressing men. Men are to pray and not waste time with anger or disputing. Have you ever seen two guys talk about their sports teams that are rivals? We fellas tend to get heated about things - arguably Paul is pointing out or own flaws as men. The testosterone gets going and we're gonna fight for the right to be right. I think this was a token of some of Timothy's and Paul's situation.

As Paul moves into women, he does not say anything particularly stunning at first. Women, who let me say have a habit of looking very nice to us guys, should dress in modesty. Paul is simply stating, women worry about what you do and not what you wear. He's clearly not saying women don't look pretty. At the same time, he is pointing out a truth we see in culture today - women get attention when the dress provocatively (and men can do the same, to a lesser extent). I mean it's not a good thing if you're a guy at church checking out the lady's high cut skirt or low cut top. Obviously the guy has a problem, but we all know the opposite sex is attracted to us (it's no mystery) and there are things we can do to influence that.

I think I Timothy 2:11 is simply addressing women as the far more social sex. Face it, most men hate to talk on phones, communicate in short choppy sentences, and don't particularly like to talk. There are, of course, exceptions but you ladies generally like to talk whereas we guys like to go all philosophical and think about it. There's nothing sexist or wrong about it, and one is not better than the other. What this goes back to, though, is what Jesus said in Mark 10. If the woman seeks to speak over her husband, then any message he puts out there is going to fall prey to noise. If the preacher's wife says something rude, is the talk gonna be about that great sermon is it gonna be about what she said!?

The two are one flesh. If the man is preaching, and the woman is gossiping or drawing attention to herself, then how effective is a message going to be?

The problem I have with the women haters is that Paul addresses a woman teacher quite favorably in Acts 18. In fact, he even clearly inverts the convention and names the woman first in an instance! When they came into contact with Apollos, it clearly says they (naming Priscilla & Aquila in the exact order) took him home and taught him. If you literally run through Acts 18 and I Timothy 2, we have a clear conflict at first glance. However, we know better!

So I think these passages are used to hold down Godly women. I must say that I'm not 100% certain on this last aspect of the subject, but I see no issue with women teaching and preaching. I think the two passages above were situational and show us that there is a certain order in how things should be done. Husbands (which I believe falls equally upon in terms of not destroying/harming your wife's ministry if she is called to minister/help people in some way) and wives should be on the same page and Paul was dealing with women who seek to overstep.

As my final point, I'd merely point out the word above that says assume authority. The old KJV renders it usurp which better covers the meaning. If you look it up in places like Strong's, the word means more than just step into authority. It means literally taking things into ones own hands and taking control. One definition is to act autocratically. If you are a teacher of God, you are teaching by God's authority period. Paul didn't teach on Paul's authority. He taught on God's. So did Priscilla and so did the prophetess Anna.

Vengle · Nov 16, 2011

Shirley said:
Most men can not stand to have a woman tell them what to do. Once I was secretary of a home Improvements Company. All the men loved me and respected me. At some point I was put in charge of running the company. Almost immediately some of the men disliked me. The reason? I was handing out the work orders. How dare a woman tell a man what to do! Give her a spirit of Shame!

When it comes to men who lack in genuine depth of spirituality grown of godly knowledge and wisdom, that is what we would expect. And we see some who ought to know better spiritually but have failed to make the connection with their own wives that she is their body, and one would not oppress his own body from having an equal share in all that he does.

Here is a point to consider: I think some of us men (I know I have been guilty of it in the past) see our self only as the head and the body is only the woman.

Can you see what I mean? Can you see how that unwitting view, if we allow our self in ignorance to think that way would render the woman like as a mere possession?

That view is mistaken about how the relationship is described for us in the Bible. And as a result of a man's failure to accurately divide the scripture he turns the scripture into a burden for his mate to bear under him. That is what Jesus said the Pharisees did to those they were supposed to serve!

It is not true that we as a man are only the head. We are also the body one with the woman. But I have even more for you to factor in. Dominion (headship) was appointed to who when God created the first human couple?

Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

It was given jointly to the man and the woman. But we have gotten used to thinking of headship as only the man. And we have gotten used to thinking of headship in terms of a superior and a subordinate which is also something that we need to gain a spiritual balance concerning: Matthew 23:11 "But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant."

But then few of us understand that word "servant", either. :lol:

If we would look at Jesus example as the bridegroom and head of the church we should know. His bride are to be co-rulers (kings/priests) along with him. And he does not lord it over them though they out of respect call him Lord.

We have much to learn before we stop twisting Paul's words, don't we.

Vengle · Nov 16, 2011

That is very well thought out HammerStone. I tend to agree with your view of it. I hope to get more into Paul's letters here soon and examine that deeper. You show good insight. That is what spiritual mindedness gives a person.

I also definitely agree with what Prentis said, "It is the religiosity of man which turns these into religious practices rather than seeing in them the order of God, and abiding in these by love for God."

I like how Prentis equates that to a stifling of the freedom that exists in the spirit. That was a valuable piece of understanding, also.

I will get back to this later as I have some pressing matters to attend to right now.

We have gotten some very valuable input here already. I hope that continues and we can all leave this discussion the richer for having shared in it.

THE Gypsy · Nov 16, 2011

Vengle said:
And what about head coverings? Was Paul there stating a doctrine of the church?

But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering. 1 Cr. 11:15

Vengle said:
1 Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

1 Corinthians 11:5-6 "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered."

The original culture/intent must be kept in mind when considering whether or not this issue is applicable across the generations.

Back in Paul's day, women were mostly disruptive in the church. Corinth had a reputation for sexual immorality and depravity. Women were loud, boisterous and adorned for the purpose of attracting men instead of God. They were also uneducated and had little more to offer than the local gossip. It was more an issue of church members needing to exercise some self control.

There are many scholars that debate the authenticity of v. 34-35. One of the main reasons is the statement "also saith the law", which is cited here, however nowhere does Paul appeal to the "Law" to support Christian behavior. Another reason is that v. 34-35 are a contradiction to v. 5 that states women WILL pray and prophesy...How is that possible if they are to "keep silent"?

Comm.Arnold said:
I think he was just telling the truth, women are a burden especially in church. The church I go to suffers because they have women in positions of power over men. The girl who sings is always checking out my junk and squirming away as she is worshipping I find it really difficult to enjoy the service somedays.

As a speaker he was possibly speaking from personal experience as women try and drag down upright religious men in positions of power. I like that part about if they learn anything then ask their husbands at home. They sure do blurt out a lot of offensive and incorrect statements sometimes. I hate to say this but I can honestly see why some of those middle eastern countries treat women as strictly as they do. I am also just venting because this loser of a girl tried to get me kicked out of my own church recentley because I find her in no way attractive and she wants me.

Vengle · Nov 16, 2011

Thank you Gypsy for those observations. It does seem pretty clear that these words of Paul were in one respect principally cultural considerations observed out of love for those who might be stumbled by the failure to observe these things and so have their ears stopped up from listening.

That is why just before Paul spoke the words about head coverings he said the following: 1 Corinthians 10:31 "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

1 Corinthians 11:1 ¶Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."

------------------------------------------------------------------

However, I give you your highest rating on your last comment. "

"

That statement is definitely free of ambiguity (thus clearly stated), gets straight to the point (as I am sure even Comm will agree), and is of appropriate length (a thousand words).

THE Gypsy · Nov 16, 2011

Vengle · Nov 16, 2011

THE Gypsy said:

Cute !!!

I see in the Mozilla Firefox that I just installed on the start up page they are seeking people to sign a petition to protest a vote that the U.S. Congress is having today to enact internet censorship legislation.

I may not be able to freely talk on here much longer. I sure hope that is not what it is about.

Was Paul stating a church doctrine when he said that he did not permit a woman to teach in the churc

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