Christ as the firstborn

Of course I omitted to mention Psa 45 (Heb 1:8) is a limerick to the king, who is God's appointed ruler.

His appointment like that of Moses and the Judges requires an appointer and here in Heb 1:8 speaking to its correct context we find Jesus coming in the glory of the Father (Mat 16:27), and thus sits upon a throne appointed him by the Father (Psa 110:1), hence it is called God's throne.

Therefore Heb 1:8 actually speaks to the ownership of the Throne, and much as he who represents the One who will one day receive it back from the Son.

Then cometh the end, when he (Jesus) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Nomad would be fully aware the Kings of Judah such as David, and Solomon sat upon God's throne, and doing so they represented (poorly mind you) God Himself!

It is not unusual for mortal men to be referred to as "God" -- much less the true Son of God.

Indeed, anyone who acts on behalf of God may be called "God":

angels: Gen 16:13; 18:13; Exo 23:20,21; Hos 12:3,5 men: Exo 22:28; Exo 22:6 and 21:8 (elohim); Psa 138:1; John 10:34 (cited from Psa 82:1,6).

Nomad said:

Where exactly does your quote even come close to saying that God makes himself a creature's seat or throne?

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That merely demonstrates how they are figurative. For example: We can therefore stand before God's throne right here on earth because it is God's footstool. I am trying to loosen your spiritual eyes up but you are fighting it.

There is no point in my posting this next bit of information because your senses are so dull that you will never see it and all you will do is seek ways to gore me with it.

But here goes, because my love for you is greater than your hate for me:

“Throne” figuratively signifies a seat of ruling authority (1Ki 2:12; 16:11) or the kingly authority and sovereignty itself (Ge 41:40; 1Ch 17:14; Ps 89:44); a reigning government or royal administration (2Sa 14:9); sovereign control over a territory (2Sa 3:10); and a position of honor (1Sa 2:7, 8; 2Ki 25:28).

Insight said:

Nomad would be fully aware the Kings of Judah such as David, and Solomon sat upon God's throne. . .

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Since Vengle failed to answer my challenge, I'll give you the opportunity. Chapter and verse please.

Nomad said:

Since Vengle failed to answer my challenge, I'll give you the opportunity. Chapter and verse please.

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Nomad,

In making this request I assume you deny of the throne of David is the throne of God?

Insight

Vengle said:

That merely demonstrates how they are figurative. For example: We can therefore stand before God's throne right here on earth because it is God's footstool. I am trying to loosen your spiritual eyes up but you are fighting it.

There is no point in my posting this next bit of information because your senses are so dull that you will never see it and all you will do is seek ways to gore me with it.

But here goes, because my love for you is greater than your hate for me:

“Throne” figuratively signifies a seat of ruling authority (1Ki 2:12; 16:11) or the kingly authority and sovereignty itself (Ge 41:40; 1Ch 17:14; Ps 89:44); a reigning government or royal administration (2Sa 14:9); sovereign control over a territory (2Sa 3:10); and a position of honor (1Sa 2:7, 8; 2Ki 25:28).

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This is truth.

Insight said:

Nomad would be fully aware the Kings of Judah such as David, and Solomon sat upon God's throne. . .

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Chapter and verse please.

In making this request I assume you deny of the throne of David is the throne of God? Do you reject the Kingdom and Throne of Heb 1:8 relates the Davidic Kingdom?

Yes or No?

Nomad, when a sentence proceeds with a (?) one is required to answer.

Leave it with you.

Insight

Chapter and verse please.

non·com·mit·tal adj. Refusing commitment to a particular opinion or course of action; not revealing what one feels or thinks.

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Your inability to converse civilly has revealed once more your true character and stiff neck intent.

Again you reveal yourself to be a Pharisee of the Pharisee’s for they too persisted in like manner.

I am disappointed Nomad as I was genuinely looking forward to having this discussion about the Kingdom of God on Earth.

And it’s coming King.

Insight

Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

Who do you think gives authority and power?

What is a throne if not a position of authority and power?

The throne belongs to the one who can both give it and take it away.

Daniel 4:32 "And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will."

Vengle

Clearly Nomad is not able to commit to his question, which speaks volumes to his baseless argument. He is illusive you know. He comes and goes like the phantom apologist. (Jude 1:12)

Peter spoke to them often; they are "wells without water, and mists driven by a storm". Nomad is proving what I feared of him as per Prov 25:14: "As clouds and wind without rain, so is he that boasteth himself in a gift of falsehood (ie, while Nomad has not laid claim to the gift of the Holy Spirit he certainly writes as one with "knowledge".

Psa 72:6 may he be....

But what have we seen?

Like clouds and wind without rain is a man who boasts of a gift he does not give

Insight

Insight said:

Vengle

Clearly Nomad is not able to commit to his question, which speaks volumes to his baseless argument. He is illusive you know. He comes and goes like the phantom apologist. (Jude 1:12)

Peter spoke to them often; they are "wells without water, and mists driven by a storm". Nomad is proving what I feared of him as per Prov 25:14: "As clouds and wind without rain, so is he that boasteth himself in a gift of falsehood (ie, while Nomad has not laid claim to the gift of the Holy Spirit he certainly writes as one with "knowledge".

Psa 72:6 may he be....


But what have we seen?

Like clouds and wind without rain is a man who boasts of a gift he does not give

Insight

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:lol: Yes, but I saw below that he was monitoring when I posted my last comment.

I waited for the right moment to hit him with the hard proof so as to give him the chance to see how he fruitlessly argues in ignorance.

One can only hope that will make him think about the impropriety of his approach. Sometimes we have to give them enough rope to hang them self, so to speak. Hopefully that opened his eyes to his obstinate way. You see, he really may not see he is being obstinate because he has his ways of justifying it as proper technique.

I too doubt that it will do any good. But even those Jude spoke of might repent.

Vengle said:

Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

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Yes, God ordains all human authority. He delagates power to whomever he wishes. Where exactly does this verse say that those who are given power and authority in human affairs sit of "God's throne?"

Vengle said:

Daniel 4:32 "And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will."

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This verse is saying the same as Romans 13. God delagates power to whomever he wishes. Again, where exactly does this verse say that those who are given power and authority in human affairs sit of "God's throne?"

Nomad, why don't you tell me who appointed the kings over Israel?

And why don't you tell me how if that throne and authority was not his to give how he gave it?

Were not the kings anointed through Israel's prophets so that even David had to answer to Nathan who spoke for God concerning the Bathsheba affair?

Humble yourself to see.

Insight said:

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: (Hebrews 12:14)

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Amen, "with all [men]".

Oh, and with all women.

Vengle said:

Nomad, why don't you tell me who appointed the kings over Israel?

And why don't you tell me how if that throne and authority was not his to give how he gave it?

Were not the kings anointed through Israel's prophets so that even David had to answer to Nathan who spoke for God concerning the Bathsheba affair?

Humble yourself to see.

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Those whom God places in human government are mere vassals. An inferior is never said to sit on a superiors' throne in human government. Likewise, the Bible never speaks of a delegate sitting on God's throne. To sit on God's throne would mean that the delegate or vassal would wield the full authority and power of God. This is absurd on its face. Again, the Bible never indicates any such thing. Grasping at straws isn't going to help you prove that the Son is not God, Vengle. This whole conversation is sheer desperation on your part.

Nomad said:

Those whom God places in human government are mere vassals. An inferior is never said to sit on a superiors' throne in human government. Likewise, the Bible never speaks of a delegate sitting on God's throne. To sit on God's throne would mean that the delegate or vassal would wield the full authority and power of God. This is absurd on its face. Again, the Bible never indicates any such thing. Grasping at straws isn't going to help you prove that the Son is not God, Vengle. This whole conversation is sheer desperation on your part.

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Do you not see the inherent haughtiness against God in your answer?

James 4:15 "For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that."

Do you not realize that anything and everything you do must be permitted of God for you to have any kind of power or authority in yourself even over your own actions, that no man could have any seat at any level of authority even over his own way lest he gives it to you?

Nomad said:

Thanks. I'm glad it helped. I agree that the real problem here is indoctrination. I would also add philosophical hang-ups and allowing "reason" to trump Scripture.

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Hey Nomad,

It ain't "reason" that these folks are blinded, it's ideology. And where you so aptly discounted their lies, they didn't refute you, they dismissed you:

Nomad said:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word. . .

I thought you were "deep" into Greek Vengle? How could you get this so wrong? First, "in the beginning" refers to creation. Look at verse 3. You have to pay attention to context. Second, do see the word "was" in John 1:1? That is the imperfect tense form of our little friend "eimi." The imperfect tense expresses continuous action in the past. As far back as you wish to push "the beginning," the Word was already existing. That is what is clearly conveyed by the imperfect tense. The Word does not come into existence at the beginning, The Word is already existing when the beginning takes place. This is a hard fact of the Greek text that's not open to debate. Sorry. Seeing that you fancy yourself deep into Greek you should have no problem with what I've said. You hould have no problem looking it up. There's nothing here but what first year Greek students learn very early in their studies.

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Vengle said:

....
I love to witness your astounding ability to dazzle yourself. :lol: Even if it does limp a bit in genuine logic or truth.

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And so these wander about, ever seeking knowledge, but never finding the TRUTH:

2 Timothy 3:7
[sup]7[/sup] always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. [sup]8[/sup] Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; [sup]9[/sup] but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.


As such I would adjure each to turn away from these, as Scripture instructs:

2 Timothy 3:5
[sup]5[/sup] having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!


... for they are as asserted previously:


Matt 15:13-14
[sup]13[/sup] But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. [sup]14[/sup] Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”



Your Friend,
BibleScribe

2 Timothy 3:7
[sup]7[/sup] always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

A good example is Trinitarians having to resort to claiming so much of what they believe is a mystery. They are always learning but never finding the truth.

Nomad, on 21 November 2011 - 05:13 PM, said:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word. . .

I thought you were "deep" into Greek Vengle? How could you get this so wrong? First, "in the beginning" refers to creation. Look at verse 3. You have to pay attention to context. Second, do see the word "was" in John 1:1? That is the imperfect tense form of our little friend "eimi." The imperfect tense expresses continuous action in the past. As far back as you wish to push "the beginning," the Word was already existing. That is what is clearly conveyed by the imperfect tense. The Word does not come into existence at the beginning, The Word is already existing when the beginning takes place. This is a hard fact of the Greek text that's not open to debate. Sorry. Seeing that you fancy yourself deep into Greek you should have no problem with what I've said. You hould have no problem looking it up. There's nothing here but what first year Greek students learn very early in their studies.


Vengle, on 21 November 2011 - 05:18 PM, said:
....
I love to witness your astounding ability to dazzle yourself. :lol: Even if it does limp a bit in genuine logic or truth.



It ain't "reason" that these folks are blinded, it's ideology. And where you so aptly discounted their lies, they didn't refute you, they dismissed you.



BibleScribe