Christ as the firstborn

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

"LORD" in the preceding verse is a translation of the Hebrew "Yahweh." The Apostle Paul applies this text to Jesus. Jesus is Yahweh.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

#59

When a person's carnal spirit hates the light the presence of light near them torments their carnal spirit. They aim that torment back at the one who bears the light in their presence, mistaking that torment to be godly righteous indignation. That is because, as Paul showed concerning his fellow Jews as to the flesh (Romans 10:2-3), they have their own brand of righteousness which they have mistaken for God's.

It takes a great deal of humility for them to see that their righteousness is not God's that they may direct that torment to fixing the problem instead of using it to hate God's messengers.

That is the place of the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. It is the place wherein the Rich man of Luke 16:23 "lift up his eyes, being in torments".

It occurs to me that this pseudo-righteous city they have set up may well be where the two witnesses of Revelation 11:8 are slain. And that those two witnesses somehow represent God's collective messengers who bear the light to them.

Hi Vengle,

I thought I would post this reference list to show some of the names and titles of the Master. We all know his prophetic coming involved many aspects of Jesus’ character, position and the redeeming work the Father has placed in his name.

• Messiah (Acts 3:20)
• Lord (John 13:13)
• Saviour (Acts 13:23)
• King of Kings (Revelation 17:14)
• Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16)
• Immanuel; "God with us" (Matthew 1:18-23)
• Last Adam (I Corinthians 15:45)
• Lamb of God (John 1:29)
• Word of God (Revelation 19:13)
• Firstborn from among the dead (Colossians 1:18)
• Author of life (Acts 3:15)
• Chief shepherd (I Peter 5:4)
• Light of the world (John 8:12)
• First and last (Revelation 1:19)
• Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15)

Over the years I have studied all of these names likened to our study in Rev 1:8,19 with no inference at all to Jesus being God.

The inherited name and exalted position to his Father’s side along with his mediatory work on our behalf reveal the Master in a very different light than Yahweh Himself.

The issue for Trinitarian believers as we have discovered with Nomad is their inability to maintain a higher view of Jesus while in his probation, in the flesh. He was mortal, made in our likeness; born of a woman; born of a sinner who inherited sins flesh where death had its dominion. In this it can be said Jesus was “made” like us in every way (Rom 8:3; Heb 5:2; 4:15 2 Cor 5:21 Gal 4:4 Heb 2:14,15 John 1:14 etc.

As we have found from our Rev 1:8 study his beginning and end occurred upon the resurrection of his body and was perfected; Jesus was made immortal by God his Father (Yahweh). (Read Acts!)

Jesus now is glorified, exalted and now through his spiritual birth we cannot give him lesser honor than the Father. Which in itself contradicts the creed believers, for if it his deity was commonly known and understood, even by those closest to him, why would God need to request the same honor?

Of course Jesus while in the flesh was mindful of the condemnation he was held under and made numerous references to it. John 2:25 cmp Heb 5:2 (by experience!) No one has inherent goodness but God (Mark 10:18) and Jesus could speak from resisting the temptation of flesh understood it potential to sin (Mark 7:20) and many more.

Ultimately all comes under the umbrella of Hebrews 1:4 speaking to his inheritance as firstborn; the name was received upon his physical birth but ratified upon his spiritual birth.

Insight

Boy, we can sure appreciate Hebrews 5:2, can't we ! :lol:

This is not easy. Well worth going though it, but by no means easy.

You really strike the gold here, Insight: "Of course Jesus while in the flesh was mindful of the condemnation he was held under and made numerous references to it. John 2:25 cmp Heb 5:2 (by experience!) No one has inherent goodness but God (Mark 10:18) and Jesus could speak from resisting the temptation of flesh understood it potential to sin (Mark 7:20) and many more.

Ultimately all comes under the umbrella of Hebrews 1:4 speaking to his inheritance as firstborn; the name was received upon his physical birth but ratified upon his spiritual birth."

That must remain true even when we reach the maturity of our new man irregardless of having regenerated bodies. Yahweh will always be our holiness and we are but privileged to wear it in His image.

Realizing that sort of places a snag into the claim that we are doomed to sin in this life.

I was just speaking of that subject in the thread
The Dichotomy of the Christian –Netchaplain

In post #203 I said with reference to self established righteousness, "It occurs to me that this pseudo-righteous city they have set up may well be where the two witnesses of Revelation 11:8 are slain. And that those two witnesses somehow represent God's collective messengers who bear the light to them."

I believe I see that the reason for the two witnesses is this:

Deuteronomy 17:6 "At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death."

Deuteronomy 19:15 "One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established."

When we deliver the message of God's righteousness to them and they hate that light and the messengers that bear it, they are sealing their own judgment.

The spirit is telling me that there is somewhere in the OT an account of someone anointed of God who invited a man who was not anointed onto his chariot to witness God's judgment in this way. I now need to go look for what it is telling me.

But that would correspond to those who are the kingly/priestly class with Christ in association with those who are the core of the subjects of the world to come.

I will be back when i find it. I keep hearing a name, Zerrubabel? And Johnathan?

Well I have found part of what i was hearing. It was Jehonadab and not Jonathan that I was hearing. But It was Jehu who took Jehonadab with him to destroy the Baal worshipers. That is in 2 Kings 10:15

I am not sure why i was hearing Zerrubabel yet.

Num 21:5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food."
Num 21:6 Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.

The "Lord" there, once again, is Yahweh. Paul applies this text to Christ.

1Co 10:9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents. . .

Nomad said:

Num 21:5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food."
Num 21:6 Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.

The "Lord" there, once again, is Yahweh. Paul applies this text to Christ.

1Co 10:9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents. . .

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It is not that you are entirely wrong. It is that you do not see completely.

Won't you even try to see what we are telling you? What could it hurt?

We know that Christ was leading the nation of Israel and manifesting Yahweh to them.

We understand how that works and why.

You can too if you want to bad enough to empty yourself of the pride which tells you that you already know.

Yahweh will then reveal His Son to you that the Son may then reveal Yahweh to you.

It is not God that withholds so much as it is men that prevent.

Nomad said:

Num 21:5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food."
Num 21:6 Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.

The "Lord" there, once again, is Yahweh. Paul applies this text to Christ.

1Co 10:9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents. . .

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Vengle

How is Jesus likened to the serpent in the wilderness?

Jesus is inferring a serpent? right? John 3:13,14,15

Insight said:

Vengle

How is Jesus likened to the serpent in the wilderness?

Jesus is calling himself a serpent? right? John 3:13,14,15

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The Son is the one that the Father sent among us and he can be a stone of stumbling as the bite of a serpent to us or he can be our path to see and understand the Father.

One needs to be more of a simpleton like me to see. :lol:

The Bronze Serpent

Num 21:9 & John 3:14-21



Nomad has taken us to another stirring passage.

1 The serpent was lifted up and fastened to a pole, "so must the Son of man be lifted up", i.e., die by crucifixion - by being impaled on a cross.

2. A strong sense of urgency is evident in the provision of the bronze serpent. Israelites were dying in great numbers from the venomous bites. Likewise all men are mortal and dying from the bite of sin - a sting which produced death 1 Cor 15:55,56. The Son of Man must (an urgent necessity) be 'lifted up i.e., die by crucifixion, in order to save a perishing world.

3. Faith was necessary - Israelites who ignored God's provision in the bronze serpent, perished in their unbelief. Likewise, Nicodemus, his fellow rulers, and countrymen in Israel, must believe on God's provision in the Son of Man. Those who ignored his claims or disbelieved that he was the Son of God, could not be rescued. Again the urgency is apparent. An Israelite bitten by a venomous serpent would die in a matter of minutes as the venom moved from the punctured skin into the veins and to the heart muscles which it paralysed.

4. The bronze serpent was a provision by God outside the scope of the Mosaic Law. In this respect it was a type of Christ, who was provided by God outside the scope of the Mosaic Law.

So we have the following:

SERPENT in the wilderness

· lifted up (like Christ)

· bronze serpent (symbol of flesh- like Christ)

· the flesh (Like Christ)

· venomless (No sin in Christ)

· outside the law (Like Christ)

· belief required (Like Christ)

CHRIST on calvary

· publicly crucified for all to “see” Gal 3:1

· the flesh - rightly related to death Heb 2:14

· sin dethroned - in a sinless bearer of human nature Eph 2:14 Heb 4:15 Rom 6:10

· outside the law Heb 13:13

· "whoso believeth might not perish" John 3:13,14,15

“SO MUST THE SON OF MAN BE LIFTED UP"

Could the Father be made sin to overcome the power within flesh? Maybe you can see the connection Christ made between His Fathers work in Num 21:9 and Jesus declaration in John 3:13-15?

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him (the greater bronze serpent) should not perish (like those in Number 21:9), but have eternal life.

Insight

Insight said:

The Bronze Serpent

Num 21:9 & John 3:14-21

Nomad has taken us to another stirring passage.

1 The serpent was lifted up and fastened to a pole, "so must the Son of man be lifted up", i.e., die by crucifixion - by being impaled on a cross.

2. A strong sense of urgency is evident in the provision of the bronze serpent. Israelites were dying in great numbers from the venomous bites. Likewise all men are mortal and dying from the bite of sin - a sting which produced death 1 Cor 15:55,56. The Son of Man must (an urgent necessity) be 'lifted up i.e., die by crucifixion, in order to save a perishing world.

3. Faith was necessary - Israelites who ignored God's provision in the bronze serpent, perished in their unbelief. Likewise, Nicodemus, his fellow rulers, and countrymen in Israel, must believe on God's provision in the Son of Man. Those who ignored his claims or disbelieved that he was the Son of God, could not be rescued. Again the urgency is apparent. An Israelite bitten by a venomous serpent would die in a matter of minutes as the venom moved from the punctured skin into the veins and to the heart muscles which it paralysed.

4. The bronze serpent was a provision by God outside the scope of the Mosaic Law. In this respect it was a type of Christ, who was provided by God outside the scope of the Mosaic Law.

So we have the following:

SERPENT in the wilderness

· lifted up (like Christ)

· bronze serpent (symbol of flesh- like Christ)

· the flesh (Like Christ)

· venomless (No sin in Christ)

· outside the law (Like Christ)

· belief required (Like Christ)

CHRIST on calvary

· publicly crucified for all to “see” Gal 3:1

· the flesh - rightly related to death Heb 2:14

· sin dethroned - in a sinless bearer of human nature Eph 2:14 Heb 4:15 Rom 6:10

· outside the law Heb 13:13

· "whoso believeth might not perish" John 3:13,14,15

“SO MUST THE SON OF MAN BE LIFTED UP"

Could the Father be made sin to overcome the power within flesh? Maybe you can see the connection Christ made between His Fathers work in Num 21:9 and Jesus declaration in John 3:13-15?

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him (the greater bronze serpent) should not perish (like those in Number 21:9), but have eternal life.

Insight

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Now that is all good and is the elementary beginning which most of us are familiar with. But God did not send sin among anyone as those serpents were sent among the Israelites there in the desert. In that thought I was moved to look deeper. And I now see how it also ties into Romans 8:3.

I will try to formulate my thoughts here so as to explain in a short here.

let me just add for now that it is not sin that 1 Cor 15:55,56 says has the sting, but death.

I will explain more soon.

Why was Christ made in Adam's nature?

Jesus death for us involved the condemnation of that nature, especially sin! See (condemn) 1 Pet. 4:1; Rom 8:3

Do you believe Jesus suffered in the Flesh?

Jesus was put to the proof of obedience where Adam failed Rom. 5:19; Heb. 5:8; Phil.2:8

If it were not so, for what purpose was Jesus born of Mary? It would have been sufficient for such to be out of the ground, a full grown adult as Adam was. But the plan was to condemn sin in its own nature Rom 8:3

We have seen the example of the serpent in the wilderness in Num 21:9. The bitten Israelites were asked to look at the biter impaled, as the condition of being healed. Jesus said this had to be fulfilled in him John 3:14.

Therefore human nature (serpent) as the sinner was the biter (venom), and in him (Jesus), it (flesh) was lifted up and condemned on the cross.

Again God could not dwell in that which falsely accused mankind before Him - where sin had its dominion (Gen 3:15) the only way for God to crush sin and its power was to send his son in that same fallen nature.

In this we now understand For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

How weakness?

Because Yawheh choose the weakest substance to reveal His greatest victory.

And what from a Living God's perspective is the weakest substance in all creation??? Where was the sentence of death most powerful? where did the wages of sin lead to? Rom 6:23

DEATH!

This victory required a (unique) son to be raised up out of the fallen stock of Adam, Abraham & David.

Insight

Insight said:

Why was Christ made in Adam's nature?

Jesus death for us involved the condemnation of that nature, especially sin! See (condemn) 1 Pet. 4:1; Rom 8:3

Do you believe Jesus suffered in the Flesh?

Jesus was put to the proof of obedience where Adam failed Rom. 5:19; Heb. 5:8; Phil.2:8

If it were not so, for what purpose was Jesus born of Mary? It would have been sufficient for such to be out of the ground, a full grown adult as Adam was. But the plan was to condemn sin in its own nature Rom 8:3

We have seen the example of the serpent in the wilderness in Num 21:9. The bitten Israelites were asked to look at the biter impaled, as the condition of being healed. Jesus said this had to be fulfilled in him John 3:14.

Therefore human nature (serpent) as the sinner was the biter (venom), and in him (Jesus), it (flesh) was lifted up and condemned on the cross.

Again God could not dwell in that which falsely accused mamkind before Him - where sin had its dominion (Gen 3:15).

This required a Son unique son to be raised up out of the fallen stock of Adam, Abraham & David.

Insight

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Are you sure you are not here beginning to do what Nomad does and allow disagreement with what you said to appeal to your emotions here?

Be still and let patience have it fruit. the disagreement is minor.

Vengle said:

Are you sure you are not here beginning to do what Nomad does and allow disagreement with what you said to appeal to your emotions here?

Be still and let patience have it fruit. the disagreement is minor.

Click to expand...

Explain Vengle

2 Cor 5:21 For he(Yahweh) hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

How was righteousness declared in God making His son flesh (or sin from God's perspective)?

How did God uphold his righteousness in crucifying His son to a cross?

By pretending to be flesh Himself? Rot!

Rom 8:3 and Heb 2:14,15 is the answer.

Insight said:

Explain Vengle

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Venom is indeed like as the sin that is in us. And the death that it produces is as its sting. But we see that God sent these serpents among them and that parallels God's sending Christ to give that Law the power to enliven the sin in man as Paul speaks of at Romans 7 so that it would have that death sting by our sin.

Conversely, Christ is being shown as the way to cancel the effects of that venom which represents his atonement for our sins.

That is a condensed explanation for the sake of answering you more quickly. I know that you are familiar with the verses that pertain to the thoughts and should be able to think of them just spurred by the thoughts.

In Nomad leading us to Num 21 he has in fact unwittingly pointed us to the very reason for the Lords sacrifice

The Father planned from the beginning before the foundation of the world, that this creation would involve a vital principle as found in Heb 9:22, "without shedding of blood is no remission".

Remission is the Greek word “aphesis” meaning deliverance, pardon, complete forgiveness.

This verse tells us why sacrifice is required. Adam sinned, and the forgoing of his life be it neither mortal nor immortal, shows us what sin deserves. In Lev 17:11 has been confirmed through modern science that "the life of the flesh is in the blood ".

So how is the shedding of the blood of Jesus and the offering of his body important to us?

Two passages answer this question:

1. "for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation (at-one-ment) through faith in his blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" (Rom 3:23-26)

2. "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom 8:3).

The first verse reveals Christ's sacrifice declared the righteousness of God. This redeeming process was “through” the grace and forbearance of God.

The second passage reveals Jesus "condemned sin in the flesh", this condemnation of sin in the flesh was not possible by the sacrifices under the law because God would not accept the blood of bulls and goats. They were not morally accountable for sin and in fact cannot be. They were not made in His image and likeness and therefore not moral creatures.

Both of passages show us how God reconciled sinful man to Himself without putting to one side His principles of righteousness and justice. It was because of the Fathers great love for us and all mankind that He raised his son Jesus from the dead, because he did no sin. In the spirit of Rom 6:23 he did not earn sin’s wages rather was sent to destroy its works 1 John 3:4 & 1 John 3:8. Jesus inherited the sin and death principle by Adam Eph 2:14. Today science has taught how death is programmed into our human DNA and that Jesus was an aging man and grew from a baby and in time could have grown to an old man and died. However the Fathers plan was his life was cut short Isa 53:8

Consider the Scriptures:

"For He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2Co 5:21)

"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham" (Mat 1:1)

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil" (Heb 2:14)

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (v 9)

"Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him That was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared..." (Heb 5:7)

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned..." (Rom 5:12).

insight

Vengle said:

Venom is indeed like as the sin that is in us. And the death that it produces is as its sting. But we see that God sent these serpents among them and that parallels God's sending Christ to give that Law the power to enliven the sin in man as Paul speaks of at Romans 7 so that it would have that death sting by our sin.

Conversely, Christ is being shown as the way to cancel the effects of that venom which represents his atonement for our sins.

That is a condensed explanation for the sake of answering you more quickly. I know that you are familiar with the verses that pertain to the thoughts and should be able to think of them just spurred by the thoughts.

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I think we agree? need more clarification - maybe the above post will clarify.

What you are saying is good but you must realize that we have to simplify our own understanding both for our own sake and for the sake of the less learned who listen to us.

Try to condense your thoughts.

That is love toward the less learned.

And it helps us be sure of what we are saying.

We can be 100% right and lose a listener merely by being too wordy.

Listen to an old man. :lol:

Do you understand that Christ is the power of God's Law? And that is related to how he is the Law's righteousness?

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Agreed.

Here it is in simple terms:

Jesus was raised up out of imperfect stock (fallen human nature) for the sole purpose of Yahweh making a show of its (flesh's) weakness to all mankind. In doing this His righteousness was upheld.

For how else can life be found "in" his blood if Yahweh never conquered the power of sin within it?

Insight

Insight said:

Agreed.

Here it is in simple terms:

Jesus was raised up out of imperfect stock (fallen human nature) for the sole purpose of Yahweh making a show of its (flesh's) weakness to all mankind. In doing this His righteousness was upheld.

For how else can life be found "in" his blood if Yahweh never conquered the power of sin within it?

Insight

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Amen, and there is always more to understand.

Do you see what i added to that last post? (after I made fun of my being an old man )