Christ as the firstborn

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Vengle

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[sup]There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse[/sup]
[sup]Why out of Jesse? [/sup]
[sup]And why before David?[/sup]

[sup]Notice how the word constantly reminds us of his earthly, natural heritage. [/sup]

Yes, because it is concerned with man's redemption in Christ.
 

Insight

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BTW Vengle did you know the Father raised his son in a place “Nazareth” which you recall "nothing good came from here John 1:46.

Heb: “Netzer” = “The branch” - as in “Branch out of his roots” Isa 11:1.

A divine son – David’s son Luke 1:32

The Scripture cannot be broken:
  • THE BRANCH “He shall be called a Nazarene” Matt 2:23
  • David’s son and Lord (God’s son) Isa 11:1-3 cp Rev 22:16, Rom 1:4, Rev 5:5
  • Basis of later prophecies of “Righteous branch” Jer 23:5; 33:15,16
  • This branch to grown (shoot up) “our of his place” Zech 6:12 (See AV margin!)
  • Yet to grow (alah = “ascend”, “climb up”) out of dry ground Isa 53:2
Insight
 

Vengle

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BTW Vengle did you know the Father raised his son in a place “Nazareth” which you recall "nothing good came from here John 1:46.

Heb: “Netzer” = “The branch” - as in “Branch out of his roots” Isa 11:1.

A divine son – David’s son Luke 1:32

The Scripture cannot be broken.

No, I had not considered that before. One more detail proving Jesus to be the Messiah.

I am sitting here trying to remember our conversation I believe which may have been yesterday when you talked about why Jesus is deserving of our giving him honor and praise.

But I was thinking about how that relates also to Isaiah 9:6 saying his name would be called Wonderful.

Do you remember that conversation?

John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

Romans 5:7 "For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die."

Remember now?

Who can possibly dispute he is Wonderful.

There is an interesting thing about the Hebrew word for "name" in the OT. The same word is also translated "reputation". So we need to realize that saying his name will be these things means that is who he is in terms of his reputation.

Names meant something back then unlike today.
 

Insight

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No, I had not considered that before. One more detail proving Jesus to be the Messiah.

I am sitting here trying to remember our conversation I believe which may have been yesterday when you talked about why Jesus is deserving of our giving him honor and praise.

But I was thinking about how that relates also to Isaiah 9:6 saying his name would be called Wonderful.

Do you remember that conversation?

Yes.
 

Insight

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The Wonderful is in relation to his council.

It is used by Micah in the Virgin Birth prophecy (Mic 4:9). "Counsel" for us refers to the personal fellowship between God and His Son.

Psa 16:7
Mark 1:35
John 6:15; 5:19,20; 8:28; 12:49; 14:10.

However, the original council we find comes from God alone

Jer 10:23
Job 12:13
Isa 40:12-14; 11:2-4.

So the context of why Jesus should be praised is found in the wonderful work of reconciliation that God wrought in Christ via Gods council (See Deut 18:15,16,17,1818)

He is also praise because he now has been given His authority and speaks now as "one having authority" (See Mat 7:29).

1Co 1:30
Col 2:3
Zec 6:12

I will praise him for one reason alone!

He is the captain of my salvation. Heb 12:2KJV

Do you know what qualified him as being our captain?

He did what Paul did in sins flesh 2 Tim 4:7 but conquered!
 

Vengle

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The Wonderful is in relation to his council.

It is used by Micah in the Virgin Birth prophecy (Mic 4:9). "Counsel" for us refers to the personal fellowship between God and His Son.

Psa 16:7
Mark 1:35
John 6:15; 5:19,20; 8:28; 12:49; 14:10.

However, the original council we find comes from God alone

Jer 10:23
Job 12:13
Isa 40:12-14; 11:2-4.

So the context of why Jesus should be praised is found in the wonderful work of reconciliation that God wrought in Christ via Gods council (See Deut 18:15,16,17,1818)

He is also praise because he now has been given His authority and speaks now as "one having authority" (See Mat 7:29).

1Co 1:30
Col 2:3
Zec 6:12

I will praise him for one reason alone!

He is the captain of my salvation. Heb 12:2KJV

Do you know what qualified him as being our captain?

He did what Paul did in sins flesh 2 Tim 4:7 but conquered!

The simpleton that I am I always tend to go for the simplest explanation I can find in the scripture. And the simplest explanation is that Jesus is the perfect reflection of his Father's light. He perfectly images his Father. And as Yahweh is said over and over again to be wonderful in counsel it should only be expected that his faithful Son would be also.

We see this said of Yahweh: Isaiah 28:29 "This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working."

And some Bible translations do combine it at Isaiah 9:6 as "Wonderful Counselor". The Bible in Basic English renders both words as "Wise Guide".

And we are told plainly why Jesus would also be that way in the likeness of Yahweh:

John 14:24 "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

John 5:19 "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

John 4:34 "Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work."

John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

This is indeed what Jesus did, always has done, and does, even as a risen glorified heavenly being: Luke 4:4 "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."

In this he reveals his Father to us perfectly and sets the fine example for us to follow in serving the Father.

1 Corinthians 2:16 "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."
 

Insight

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The simpleton that I am I always tend to go for the simplest explanation I can find in the scripture. And the simplest explanation is that Jesus is the perfect reflection of his Father's light. He perfectly images his Father. And as Yahweh is said over and over again to be wonderful in counsel it should only be expected that his faithful Son would be also.

We see this said of Yahweh: Isaiah 28:29 "This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working."

And some Bible translations do combine it at Isaiah 9:6 as "Wonderful Counselor". The Bible in Basic English renders both words as "Wise Guide".

And we are told plainly why Jesus would also be that way in the likeness of Yahweh:

John 14:24 "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

John 5:19 "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

John 4:34 "Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work."

John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

This is indeed what Jesus did, always has done, and does, even as a risen glorified heavenly being: Luke 4:4 "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."

In this he reveals his Father to us perfectly and sets the fine example for us to follow in serving the Father.

1 Corinthians 2:16 "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

These verses are so plain speaking about the Son's position who is (to this day) totally reliant on His Father for Life, Word, Spirit, Strenght etc.

The Firstborn from the dead.

Insight
 

Vengle

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These verses are so plain speaking about the Son's position who is (to this day) totally reliant on His Father for Life, Word, Spirit, Strenght etc.

The Firstborn from the dead.

Insight

Indeed, the most difficult thing to over turn is the unwillingness of another to use their simple reasoning. That is why the Trinity doctrine was so well aims at obscuring simple reasoning. That is why there was such a gap between Jews and the Catholic Church for the last millennium and a half at least. Jews in general were and are appalled at the Trinity belief. Only in recent decades has there even been any false appearance of good-will shown between Israel and the Catholic Pope. And that purely as a political ploy for other reasons.

Paul the apostle would never have allowed this teaching while he lived to prevent it. It would have angered Paul that anyone would want to make the message of Christ so objectionable to his natural fleshly relatives in this way. It is not as if they did not have enough of their own reasons to stop up their ears to the message of Christ just on the basis of that Old Law Covenant having been fulfilled in Christ.

I was pondering 59 scriptural texts on one web site that they claim are proof for their Trinity. It is like they have no conscience at all the way they represent these texts. There is absolutely no way they can confuse someone like as myself, but in looking at their representations and their tactics of reasoning on those 59 texts, it is clear that they are designed to keep those already blinded blind and suck in the inexperienced. And the main tool? Overshadowing the simpler reasoning.

I believe that they are in for quite the dashing of God. I believe that God may even use the vast numbers of their own people who are waking up to the false nature of the Trinity doctrine but yet only to become Atheists, to do much of that dashing. I see it coming quickly.
 

Insight

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Hi Vengle

I have been reluctant to do this but your above comment has prompted me to act.

This below extract is from Nomads statement of faith which I have been looking over of late.
1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

Chapter 2: Of God and of the Holy Trinity

1. The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of himself, infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself; a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him, and withal most just and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.

( 1 Corinthians 8:4, 6; Deuteronomy 6:4; Jeremiah 10:10; Isaiah 48:12; Exodus 3:14; John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17; Deuteronomy 4:15, 16; Malachi 3:6; 1 Kings 8:27; Jeremiah 23:23; Psalms 90:2; Genesis 17:1; Isaiah 6:3; Psalms 115:3; Isaiah 46:10; Proverbs 16:4; Romans 11:36; Exodus 34:6, 7; Hebrews 11:6; Nehemiah 9:32, 33; Psalms 5:5, 6; Exodus 34:7; Nahum 1:2, 3 )

I would like to consider the passages which they use to support thier teaching on the Trinity.

You can read about the statement of faith here if you wish http://en.wikipedia....ession_of_Faith

What are your thoughts on Capter 2 part 1 above?

Insight

2. God, having all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself, is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creature which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things, and he hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth; in his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain; he is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands; to him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever he is further pleased to require of them.

( John 5:26; Psalms 148:13; Psalms 119:68; Job 22:2, 3; Romans 11:34-36; Daniel 4:25, 34, 35; Hebrews 4:13; Ezekiel 11:5; Acts 15:18; Psalms 145:17; Revelation 5:12-14 )



3. In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him.

( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26; Galatians 4:6 )
 

Vengle

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My first thought is that by eloquence of words of truth it seeks to hide the truth pertaining to Christ.

It speaks well of the Father but its motive in being proffered is insincere. It is offered as if the motive is to glorify God but behind it its real motive is to fudge the true picture of Christ.

It reminds me of how Satan himself was able to quote truths of scripture twisted to his own desired purpose, such as we saw him do when Jesus was being tempted during the 40 days and nights.
 

Insight

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My first thought is that by eloquence of words of truth it seeks to hide the truth pertaining to Christ.

It speaks well of the Father but its motive in being proffered is insincere. It is offered as if the motive is to glorify God but behind it its real motive is to fudge the true picture of Christ.


Yes.

Point 3 "who is not to be divided in nature and being"

This alone when we consider all the discussions on the nature of Christ clearly dwelling in sins flesh and overcoming the power of death immediately conflicts with this humanism.

How can one reconcile unapproachable divine essence with corrupting flesh? And what passage of Scripture do you go to support such a belief?

Insight
 

Vengle

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Yes.

Point 3 "who is not to be divided in nature and being"

This alone when we consider all the discussions on the nature of Christ clearly dwelling in sins flesh and overcoming the power of death immediately conflicts with this humanism.

How can one reconcile unapproachable divine essence with corrupting flesh? And what passage of Scripture do you go to support such a belief?

Insight

They don't use the scriptures for that one. They divert to the mystery of the "fully God - fully man" theory.

That is but one of the things that makes reasoning with them futile. They are full of convenient reasoning.

Add that then to not wanting to accept that a parent or husband or wife was wrong to introduce this doctrine to them.
 

Insight

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the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son;

Vengle, how do Trinitarians overcome the conflict of Fatherhood?

If they believe Jesus is “Very God” then he must also be Father? If the Son is eternally begotten and the God is the Son then God must also be begotten.

They don't use the scriptures for that one. They divert to the mystery of the "fully God - fully man" theory.

It must be awfully uncomfortable to believe in something that is unknown.

BtW what time is it your end?
 

Vengle

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Vengle, how do Trinitarians overcome the conflict of Fatherhood?

If they believe Jesus is “Very God” then he must also be Father? If the Son is eternally begotten and the God is the Son then God must also be begotten.



It must be awfully uncomfortable to believe in something that is unknown.

BtW what time is it your end?


It is 7:44 AM here.

What you are saying here is why I said that they do not even consider the picture of God and His Son in the way God directly created Adam in their image but then Adam's offspring came in him, by him, and through him.

I need to elaborate on that.
 

Vengle

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As I said :

I need to elaborate on the picture God has supplied us as my statement concerning it was left too vague, and inaccurate. And when we see that we are wrong this is what we ought to do.

We can see this picture also given us in Abraham, Sarah, and Isaac, as I may explain later. The formation of the nation of Israel was also used to paint the picture to us of what God originally intended for the entire world, from start to finish, from beginning to completion in a similar way. Perhaps we can talk about that also later, but for now we will focus on Adam and Eve and what the Bible tells us about the picture they paint for us of God and His Son and how all things were made.

Per Genesis 1:26, God made through the Son (which is why He said, "Let us make"), "man in our image, after our likeness", which is Adam and Eve paralleling the Father (Adam) and the Son (Eve).

Adam here is the image and glory of God corresponding to God. Eve is the glory of Adam corresponding to the Son. 1 Corinthians 11:7 “For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.”

2 Corinthians 4:6 “For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”

Just as Christ shines the glory of his Father in his face (meaning by what we see and thus explaining Doubting Thomas’ exclamation) a woman is to shine the glory of her husband. Yes, Eve made as a compliment and helpmeet to Adam, was to represent in her face (her presentation) the glory of Adam just as Paul said at 1 Corinthians 11:7.

We know they, Adam and Eve, where two separate and distinct persons with minds and hearts of their own. (This is why Eve could take it to herself to sin.) But we see how it is that they also were to be one in spirit of mind and heart so as to work harmoniously together for a common goal that of producing all mankind as reflections of this same picture repeated over and over again.

More to come.
 

Vengle

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Now consider what we see further. Adam is our picture of who God is even as Christ is our picture of who God is. Thus we find Paul speaks of Adam, saying of Adam, “who is the figure of him that was to come.” (Romans 5:14)

And we also see Paul referring to Christ as, “the last Adam”. (1 Corinthians 15:45)

And we see further into the reason for this replacement to us of the first Adam: (1 Corinthians 15:21-22) “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

When we see Jesus as literally God, this picture and its purpose becomes obscured. Jesus revealed God by the image of God he supported in himself, just as Adam revealed God by the image of God that he supported in himself until he tossed it away.

And it is because the first Adam tossed that image away that we were left with no way to know God. Thus this also why enters Jesus:

Matthew 11:27 "All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."

Luke 10:22 "All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him."

And we also see in those verses why so many do not know who the Son is. But God will not ever despise a contrite heart. So if anyone become humble they will be permitted to know the Son.

Psalms 34:18 "The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit."
 

Vengle

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What supports God’s image in us? It is our understanding of God’s words and our commitment of faithfulness to them, made strong by love of God and fellow. Jesus is our greatest example of that as I spoke of earlier in post #407. That is why Adam could toss it away, in effect, changing “the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things” (Romans 1:23), as well as into the likeness of whatever things we become free to pattern ourselves after in the absence of that image of God.

Thus we see how the loyalty of Jesus to live by his Father’s every word was a significant part of what made Jesus, “the author and finisher of our faith”. (Hebrews 12:2) In other words, we are fooling ourselves if we think we can leave out of our worship that same commitment to faithfulness by obedience to God’s words. If we do not have God’s works of righteousness being performed through us we are barren trees. We will be cut down.