Christ as the firstborn

BibleScribe said:

... if denying Jesus is GOD, and Jesus takes exception to it, then it won't be a label which is your concern.



BibleScribe

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That is true. It also is a doubled edged sword that cuts also the other direction.

Think about it. Jesus' goal was to vindicate his Father's name in this earth restoring it to the rightful glory the Father's name deserves. (Matthew 6:9-10) (John 12:28) (John 17:6) If he is not literally God, then won't he be incensed that you have confused the picture of what he was doing?

I know it breaks your heart, but Acts 2:21 does not refer to the name "Jesus". It means the name "Yahweh" or "Jehovah" just as the reading is in the Old Testament from where it comes.

These words of David represent the example Jesus set for us, Jesus lived by doing this very thing concerning his Father: Psalms 50:15 "And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me."

Psalms 55:16 "As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD (Yahweh) shall save me."

You be saved by Jesus and go ahead and miss that he was showing you how to be saved.

I will be saved through Jesus by the Father, having recognized that Jesus was the way in which I must walk to be saved.

Zephaniah 3:9 "For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD (Yahweh), to serve him with one consent."

Notice whose name we are kept in as to whether the Father's name Yahweh or the Son's name Jesus: John 17:11 "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."

How are we saved, "by" Jesus or "through" (or "in") Jesus as I described? John 20:31 "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." (Remember that "name" means reputation in both the Hebrew and the Greek. To have the same reputation you must walk as he walked and that is how we are saved through him; literally "through his example", or "in following his example". Only in a limited sense could it be said we are saved "by" that example but it is because it is the father who is credited with the actual saving through or in Christ.

In other words the picture is that if we let ourselves become as Christ then we are saved by the father along with Christ. That is what Paul meant here: Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

Insight said:

Veteran,

Why are you so reluctant to address the Masters nature?

You have posted verses without showing an understanding or asking us questions.

Now post #438 is waiting for you to honestly deal with the passages, content and questions.

If you are unsure just ask.

I am not going to judge you for not knowing or for asking.

Insight

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I think Veteran was answering my question to him there. I wanted to see if he understands that the world is not the same as the earth but refers to the populous of people that inhabit the earth. Thus the world was founded in sin with the birth of Abel. From before the foundation of the world (the populous of people) is when Adam sinned. Thus God brought Christ into the picture at the point where Adam sinned as part of his response to that sin.

Insight said:

This below comment needs further thought in light of Matt 1:1 Rom 1:3 Gal 4:4 Rom 8:3 Heb 2:14,15 2 Cor 5:21 and so on...



Your problem is with Matt 1:1 the very first verse of the NT cannot be explained with your present understanding.

For how can God be the son of two sinners?

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Is that not a Gnostic idea, that the attributes of flesh can transfer spiritual gifts and power through lineage? I believe even the Da Vinci Code movie used that kind of Gnostic idea at the end.

Matthew 1 is actually the genealogy of Joseph, the husband of Mary. It's easy to know that since Christ Jesus descended through David's son Nathan, and not Solomon like the Matt.1 Scripture has it.

And per the Matthew 1 Scripture witness, Mary's womb birthed Christ Jesus by The Holy Spirit, and not by her husband Joseph. It's the very subject there of Joseph thinking to put Mary away privately, until the angel of The Lord appeared to Joseph and revealed what Mary's pregnancy was about.

Mind you, this is a Christian forum. If you don't believe Christ Jesus' birth through Mary's womb by The Holy Spirit, then you're refusing to believe the Matthew 1 Scripture as written. And it's a very simple Scripture.

AND

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh Rom 1:3

It’s one thing to say he was of the genealogy of David, but to make specific reference to David’s flesh?

Why so?

AND

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Once again, you appear to be in confusion as to the flesh. Spiritual attributes aren't transferred through flesh genealogy. So if the idea of God having been born flesh as Jesus Christ is confusing you on that basis, then I can grasp how you'd have a difficult time believing the idea of God being born through woman's womb like us. But I think you well know why Christ would come through David's lineage; it's because God ordained the house of David from the tribe of Judah to be kings over Israel. Since David's throne has been promised to Christ Jesus, and Christ is King, it's only a natural procession, the difference being Christ Jesus is the FINAL King, even forever.

For verily Jesus took NOT on him the nature of angels; but Jesus took on him the nature of Abraham. Heb 2:16

"what was Abraham & David's nature? Sin's Flesh or another type of Flesh?

And why?

AND

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There's that Gnostic idea yet again! If the flesh attributes transferred spiritual power through lineage, then all the kings of David's house should have gotten better and better in following God's commandments.

For he (God) hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (Jesus).

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2 Cor 5:21

But let’s translate this passage through a Trinitarian filter.

For God hath made God to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in God. 2 Cor 5:21

Is this right?

Is this what you all believe?

AND

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The words "to be" are not in the Greek of that verse. And "made" (poieo) in the Greek has many, many applications. But you're interpreting it wrongly right off the bat with trying to apply an automatic sin state to Christ, instead of just flesh. In other words, you're not wanting to separate the difference between Christ's Spirit (or Divine Nature) and the mere flesh He was born into. Only God could be born in the flesh of woman's womb as we are, and remain without sin as written. And only God in the flesh could have Power to defeat death and the devil for us through His death upon the cross.

Without belief that God came in the flesh as Christ to do that, then you have no Salvation. That's the basic foundation of The Gospel per all of God's Holy Writ.

“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24)

Could Jesus ask you to do this Veteran "if" he did not do this himself?

Insight

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Do you infer by that, that Jesus Christ was subject to the affections and lusts of the flesh? Yes, He was subjected to it and suffered it. Does that mean He fell to those kind of temptations of the flesh to do sin? No, He did not, which once again, shows us how only God could ever come in the flesh and be Perfect without sin.

Insight said:

Veteran,

Why are you so reluctant to address the Masters nature?

You have posted verses without showing an understanding or asking us questions.

Now post #438 is waiting for you to honestly deal with the passages, content and questions.

If you are unsure just ask.

I am not going to judge you for not knowing or for asking.

Insight

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Yes, those Scriptures I posted in answer to Vengle's question.

veteran said:

Is that not a Gnostic idea, that the attributes of flesh can transfer spiritual gifts and power through lineage? I believe even the Da Vinci Code movie used that kind of Gnostic idea at the end.

Matthew 1 is actually the genealogy of Joseph, the husband of Mary. It's easy to know that since Christ Jesus descended through David's son Nathan, and not Solomon like the Matt.1 Scripture has it.

And per the Matthew 1 Scripture witness, Mary's womb birthed Christ Jesus by The Holy Spirit, and not by her husband Joseph. It's the very subject there of Joseph thinking to put Mary away privately, until the angel of The Lord appeared to Joseph and revealed what Mary's pregnancy was about.

Mind you, this is a Christian forum. If you don't believe Christ Jesus' birth through Mary's womb by The Holy Spirit, then you're refusing to believe the Matthew 1 Scripture as written. And it's a very simple Scripture.

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You have still not answered how Jesus is referred to as the Son of sinful men

I am waiting for you to define his nature.

You refer to Jesus as "flesh"

Was his nature pre Adamic fallen nature of post Admic nature?

Once again, you appear to be in confusion as to the flesh. Spiritual attributes aren't transferred through flesh genealogy. So if the idea of God having been born flesh as Jesus Christ is confusing you on that basis, then I can grasp how you'd have a difficult time believing the idea of God being born through woman's womb like us. But I think you well know why Christ would come through David's lineage; it's because God ordained the house of David from the tribe of Judah to be kings over Israel. Since David's throne has been promised to Christ Jesus, and Christ is King, it's only a natural procession, the difference being Christ Jesus is the FINAL King, even forever.

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You are almost there!


What nature passed from Abraham - David - Jesus?

Define that nature please.

There's that Gnostic idea yet again! If the flesh attributes transferred spiritual power through lineage, then all the kings of David's house should have gotten better and better in following God's commandments.

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Cease from thinking in theological terms Veteran its holding you back from seeing why Jesus was born of a woman!

The words "to be" are not in the Greek of that verse. And "made" (poieo) in the Greek has many, many applications. But you're interpreting it wrongly right off the bat with trying to apply an automatic sin state to Christ, instead of just flesh. In other words, you're not wanting to separate the difference between Christ's Spirit (or Divine Nature) and the mere flesh He was born into. Only God could be born in the flesh of woman's womb as we are, and remain without sin as written. And only God in the flesh could have Power to defeat death and the devil for us through His death upon the cross.

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You need to isolate Jesus nature and not complicate it with Trinitarian thinking. How will you answer these questions if you have unknown mysteries running around in your brain.

Stay on topic and anwser the exact nature of Christ and cease trying define truine gods.

Without belief that God came in the flesh as Christ to do that, then you have no Salvation.

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Veteran - see how you push your doctrine into your answers. I have shown you so many verses that tell you Jesus possessed sin's flesh AND was held under deaths dominion but while you have this confusion playing havoc with your reasoning the Word will not reveal itself to you.

That's the basic foundation of The Gospel per all of God's Holy Writ.

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No that is the foundation of Nicene Creed.

Do you infer by that, that Jesus Christ was subject to the affections and lusts of the flesh? Yes,

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NOW THIS ADMISSION PROVES YOU BELIEVE HE AT LEAST HAD OUR NATURE - MAYBE YOU ARE THINKING ADAMS FIRST NATURE?????

He was subjected to it and suffered it. Does that mean He fell to those kind of temptations of the flesh to do sin? No,

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Go over my posts Veteran NOT once has Vengle and I ever suggested he fell to these desires actually we say the contrary. But again you are not defining his nature but skirting around the issue.

You say suffered - How?
You say Subject - How?

Who did he get his nature from and why?

He did not, which once again, shows us how only God could ever come in the flesh and be Perfect without sin.

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Explain how you come to this conclusion Veteran.

Why do you say this is the only way?

Jesus had an earthly mother and a Heavenly Father and you say it must needs be God HImself transforming Himself into a suckling baby.

Come one Veteran - you are smarter and wiser than this ! start asking real and meaningful questions of God and His Word and see how your teachings do not fit the record.

God Bless your searching!

Insight

The stopper Insight is that they do not understand that Jesus life course had the power to ceremonially purify his flesh for offering.

We see that principle in things like as this: Matthew 23:26 "... cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also."

They do not understand that this is a core and extremely important theme as to how God is able to save us through our living the life of Christ.

Christ literally worked that body to holiness.

And what are we told to do? Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

They have lived with too many half truths to be able and grasp this. We all did.

It is now time that God is calling us to awaken from our sleep and see these things.

They are not too difficult.

Jesus really did set the complete example for us that we needed. And he had to be exactly as us to do it.

Need another scripture where this principle is seen?

Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

Now think about it, if you do this following what is there left to condemn your body for?

Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

See why Paul says the following:

Romans 8:12 "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh."

Not yet?

OK. I will add this thought:

Our body is like the child that is taken along in a car where an irresponsible person driving the car kills them both through his or her recklessness.

It cannot think for itself and it is like the lower animals insofar as its needs which it craves. It is up to the man of the spirit in the mind to be responsible for both by making the proper choices and decisions.

While we let the spirit of our minds be a slave to those completely natural desires we are unable to really listen to and obey God. But it is not mysterious like as we first believed. And God can lift the sentence of death from off of this body at the proper time for it.

So you say not so, cannot be? All men are appointed once to die?

That is true. They can die in an unholy condition and that will be it.

Or, they can die as Christ and be risen as Christ.

Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

It is like learning math. There is no point in trying to teach someone calculus who does not understand the arithmetic and math platforms upon which it is constructed.

We first must understand well enough our self so that we can identify what foundation pieces they are missing. And our first line of approach is to find out what they know so that we can know what they are missing. We have to fill in those gaps or we just torment them and our self for desiring to help them.

Most who claim to understand that Old Law do not really understand it. At least not as well as they ought to understand it. If they did they would see these things.

OK. Let's approach it from another direction.

If a man is inherently defiled in his flesh then how could the following be true?

Matthew 15:11 "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."

It would be irrelevant, wouldn't it?

You have worked well to help me zero in on the mysticism of beliefs that have held us into blindness. Don't give up now.

Do you remember my post concerning David's saying this following?

Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

I pointed out how a word study of that verse shows David simply said in effect, "I was shaped amidst the punishment for Adam's sin and into an atmosphere polluted by (or corrupted by) sin my mother conceived me."

That leaves us with little to no opportunity straight from the womb to set our feet on the path that is as Christ walked.

Why haven't the scholars recognized that then?

Because it takes the spirit of God to teach us to see it as even to see who Christ really is.

I am (with emphasis) truly the most ignoble man among men. And I know that and am sorrowful for having been so wretched; even as Paul exclaimed of himself, saying, "Wretched man that I am, who will save me from this body undergoing this death?" Those are not just words to me; they are me.

Consider how my understanding this deeply impresses upon me the extent of that wretchedness. Through it I see just how responsible I am for it. That is quite humbling to realize.

It certainly removes any excuse I may have had for not seeing that I must strive hard to enter that narrow gate; that I must now not take walking as Christ lightly.

I was just mulling over the emails you sent me. Fascinating food for thought.

I also visited the website you named. I will be prudent (discreet). That I also want to dig deeper into.

Our God Yahweh is so Good. We men tend to feel like if He reveals something to someone else that He has not revealed to us that it says something negative about our self. But that is not so. God gives His light gradually so that it will not shock us to death. And He merely initially places it in the right hands to use it effectively as He did with Paul.

There is no competition between us. Only men lacking in maturity would allow competition among themselves to interfere.


Do prudent and discreet mean the same thing? I have to go look those up. I know what discreet means but I realized after the word "prudent" came out of me that I was not sure what it means. :lol:

Yes, Webster says they are similar. I thought so but was not completely sure.

And I hate to feel uncertain of word meanings as words are our most important tool in both understanding and explaining.

Vengle said:

I was just mulling over the emails you sent me. Fascinating food for thought.

I also visited the website you named. I will be prudent (discreet). That I also want to dig deeper into.

Our God Yahweh is so Good. We men tend to feel like if He reveals something to someone else that He has not revealed to us that it says something negative about our self. But that is not so. God gives His light gradually so that it will not shock us to death. And He merely initially places it in the right hands to use it effectively as He did with Paul.

There is no competition between us. Only men lacking in maturity would allow competition among themselves to interfere.


Do prudent and discreet mean the same thing? I have to go look those up. I know what discreet means but I realized after the word "prudent" came out of me that I was not sure what it means. :lol:

Yes, Webster says they are similar. I thought so but was not completely sure.

And I hate to feel uncertain of word meanings as words are our most important tool in both understanding and explaining.

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Hi Vengle

Just returned from a Bible Study on Heb 7.

Its great you got the emails.

I would like to share something which was revealed to me tonight which I took great encouragement from.

I will start a new thread out of respect for Prentis.

Insight

Vengle said:

OK. Let's approach it from another direction.

If a man is inherently defiled in his flesh then how could the following be true?

Matthew 15:11 "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."

It would be irrelevant, wouldn't it?

You have worked well to help me zero in on the mysticism of beliefs that have held us into blindness. Don't give up now.

Do you remember my post concerning David's saying this following?

Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

I pointed out how a word study of that verse shows David simply said in effect, "I was shaped amidst the punishment for Adam's sin and into an atmosphere polluted by (or corrupted by) sin my mother conceived me."

That leaves us with little to no opportunity straight from the womb to set our feet on the path that is as Christ walked.

Why haven't the scholars recognized that then?

Because it takes the spirit of God to teach us to see it as even to see who Christ really is.

I am (with emphasis) truly the most ignoble man among men. And I know that and am sorrowful for having been so wretched; even as Paul exclaimed of himself, saying, "Wretched man that I am, who will save me from this body undergoing this death?" Those are not just words to me; they are me.

Consider how my understanding this deeply impresses upon me the extent of that wretchedness. Through it I see just how responsible I am for it. That is quite humbling to realize.

It certainly removes any excuse I may have had for not seeing that I must strive hard to enter that narrow gate; that I must now not take walking as Christ lightly.

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These are sombre thoughts Vengle.

When we come so close to Jesus that we see his groaning in a fallen nature - condemned to die and return back to the grave, we draw ever so nearer to him in that he also was beset with weakness - that weakness was his condemned mortality as a result of an inherited nature.

Everyone should read Psalm 69 and picture Jesus Christ - mark my words you cannot see a truine god but the "Son of Man" in all his infirmities.

Insight

I want to add for clarification in my post #444 that I did not say the following in the best way to express what I meant:

"Christ literally worked that body to holiness."

What I should have said is this:

Christ literally walked his body in such a way right from the moment he left his mother's womb that he was able to prove purity to his body, never once defiling it by acting on its cravings so that through perversion they would become lust.

We need to understand that it is perfectly normal for example that a man feel attraction to the opposite sex and a woman feels attraction toward men. What differs us from a lower animal is that we can choose to regulate our response to those attractions so as not to grow them into lust which then disregards the counsel of God concerning those attractions for our own benefit.

So Jesus would yes, feel attractions as we know them. But he never focused selfishly on his body's attractions and desires so as to allow them to grow into something that violates God's holiness.

Yes, we and Jesus had the exact same flesh. The idea that is wrong is that anybody's flesh is unholy straight from them womb. That idea of inherited sinful flesh is a misunderstanding just as much as the idea was that we see Jesus refuted at John 9:3

A child can be born as a bastard child and that makes the act of the people unholy who were responsible for it, but even that does not in itself make the child itself unholy in the womb.

Take these thoughts and review my last few posts beginning at #444 with them in mind.

That Old Law was not asking anyone to do what they could not do but for the way sin has darkened man's environment to keep him from seeing how. That is the only reason why that Law by itself could not produce righteousness in men.

That is why Paul said that Law was made weak by the flesh. (Romans 8:3) Sin has entangle the minds of men so that straight from the womb it supports them to continue looking only toward the flesh. They can not therefore see the spirit of God's Word matter not how it is set in front of their nose. Not even everyone saw the spirit though Christ existed alongside them. But Christ as our example is our best hope to see if we humble ourselves so we can begin.

In post #444, in my first line, I said, "The stopper Insight is that they do not understand that Jesus life course had the power to ceremonially purify his flesh for offering."

Think of this way: The greatest proof that is true is the fact that you know with a certainty a person's life course (the things they do while living day to day) has the power to defile their body and make it unholy.

You cannot have it one way and not also have potential of the other.

Need more proof?

Genesis 6:12 "And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his [own] way upon the earth.

Hosea 9:9 "They have deeply corrupted themselves, as in the days of Gibeah: therefore he will remember their iniquity, he will visit their sins."

It works like this: Ezekiel 28:17 "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."

Romans 1:22 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"

By way of contrast: Song of Songs 4:7 "Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee."

That is what we ought to become like. That is a picture of the bride of Christ returned completely to holiness.

Vengle said:

In post #444, in my first line, I said, "The stopper Insight is that they do not understand that Jesus life course had the power to ceremonially purify his flesh for offering."

Think of this way: The greatest proof that is true is the fact that you know with a certainty a person's life course (the things they do while living day to day) has the power to defile their body and make it unholy.

You cannot have it one way and not also have potential of the other.

Need more proof?

Genesis 6:12 "And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his [own] way upon the earth.

Hosea 9:9 "They have deeply corrupted themselves, as in the days of Gibeah: therefore he will remember their iniquity, he will visit their sins."

It works like this: Ezekiel 28:17 "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."

Romans 1:22 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"

By way of contrast: Song of Songs 4:7 "Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee."

That is what we ought to become like. That is a picture of the bride of Christ returned completely to holiness.

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I am basking in this light.

Vengle said:

In post #444, in my first line, I said, "The stopper Insight is that they do not understand that Jesus life course had the power to ceremonially purify his flesh for offering."

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Vengle

It would pay for them to visit the Law of Moses where God enabled the people to be cleansed from the defilement of death which had now greatly increased, and so cleared the way for continued approach to the Tabernacle. Num. 16:12-13 cmp Rom 6:4-6 and maybe then study the offering of the Red Heifer as a means of cleansing the nation.

Actually I will post a study I gave last year on the offering of the Red Heifer - offered without the camp

But where does this place Israel today?

Then answered ALL the people, and said, His blood (death) be on us, and on our children.

Only "one sacrifice" by which the defilement of death can be cured (Heb. 10:12). And Jesus himself was washed through his own blood Heb 13:20

Jesus cannot be God as he himself was defiled by death and an unclean nature!

See Heb 7:27 "for his own sins"

That pretty much is a position supporting the idea of Salvation by works of the law, and is a false position.


Heb 10:1-6
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when He cometh into the world, He saith, Sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not, but a body hast Thou prepared Me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin Thou hast had no pleasure.
(KJV)

Heb 7:24-28
24 But this man, because He continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, Who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this He did once, when He offered up Himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, Who is consecrated for evermore.
(KJV)

Gal 5:4-5
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
(KJV)

Gal 3:21-22
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(KJV)

Gal 3:10-11
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
(KJV)

Gal 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
(KJV)

veteran said:

That pretty much is a position supporting the idea of Salvation by works of the law, and is a false position.

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Explain how this is salvation by works Veteran.

What part of Jesus sacrifice was attributed to the Law and not fulfilling of it?

Waiting...

Veteran,

Israel's state of uncleanness is significant as it was the Lords (not moral sin) in his sacrifice to put away the law of sin and death within his own offering.

Don’t you know that sin comes from the uncleanness of flesh (see Mark 7:18,19,20,21,22,23), being the outcome of its lusts, teaching the need to "crucify the flesh with the affections and lusts thereof (Gal. 5:24).

Jesus in the age to come, will be bought to understand its relationship with the death of the Lord. This will graphically be brought home to the nation, and the need of atonement will be made evident. The prophet declares: "In that day there shall be a fountain opened...for sin and for uncleanness" (Zech. 13:1).

Veteran,

Jesus' character was spotless; but as being the Seed of the Woman, of whom no clean flesh can be born (Job 25:4), and Seed of Abraham, which is not immaculate, be it Virgin or Nazarite, His nature was flesh and blood (Heb.2:14), which Paul styles "sinful flesh", (Rom 8:3) or flesh full of sin, a physical quality or principle that makes the flesh mortal; and called "sin", because this property of flesh became its law as the consequence of transgression.

"God made Jesus to be sin for us who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21).

Do you agree with this definition?

For in that Jesus died, Jesus died unto sin once: but in that Jesus liveth, Jesus liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:10-14)

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath Jesus appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Hebrews 9:26)

Notice how the destroying of sin’s power relates to his own body (himself) – he becomes a representative and NOT a substitution sacrifice!

Many Christians believe the God-man died instead of us, and not on behalf of us, representing our nature and overcoming its power in a self sacrifice.

Representing us Jesus becomes our example of how we ought to crucify the flesh

Substitution teaches a debt is paid and settled with no need to put flesh to death.

Insight

An 180 degree out of phase good morning Insight, from the other side of the world.

Insight said:

Veteran,

Jesus' character was spotless; but as being the Seed of the Woman, of whom no clean flesh can be born (Job 25:4), and Seed of Abraham, which is not immaculate, be it Virgin or Nazarite, His nature was flesh and blood (Heb.2:14), which Paul styles "sinful flesh", (Rom 8:3) or flesh full of sin, a physical quality or principle that makes the flesh mortal; and called "sin", because this property of flesh became its law as the consequence of transgression.

"God made Jesus to be sin for us who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21).

Do you agree with this definition?

Click to expand...

Being conceived in lust is the sin. Christ was not conceived in Lust but was brought forth by the Holy Spirit overshadowing the flesh.