Christ as the firstborn

us2are1 said:

Being conceived in lust is the sin. Christ was not conceived in Lust but was brought forth by the Holy Spirit overshadowing the flesh.

Click to expand...

Excellent point us2are1.

The problem is that we are failing to grasp what it means to bear the flesh which belongs to Adam. In the discussion of Melchizedek I came across a scripture which actually conveys the thought of how we also bear the sin of Adam to our flesh.

It speaks of the seed that is Levi as being in Abrams flesh when Abram gave tithes and thus says Levi also gave tithes.

Get your mind around that and I will go find the verse. here it is:

Hebrews 7:9-10 "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him."

That is the sense of how we bear Adam's sin and why we also bear Adam's punishment for sin though not having directly committed that sin ourselves.

Christ did not die as our substitute, but as our representative. If Christ had died as a substitute, there would have been no forbearance on the part of God, for when a debt is paid, there is no room for forbearance. Jesus died as a member of a sinful race. All that can be affirmed of the nature of his brethren can be affirmed of him (Gal. 4: 4; Heb. 2:17; 4:15; Job 14:4).

" Christ died for (not instead of) us " (Rom. 5:8).

All he did was " for us ", in the sense of, " on our account ".

But, in order so to do, he had to " partake " of the same nature, and, hence it was, he himself had to obtain salvation (Psalm 91:16).

For evidence that " for us " does not mean as a substitute, or " instead of us ", see the following texts :

Luke 1: 69; Rom. 8:32; 1 Cor. 5:7; 2 Cor. 5: 21; Gal.3:18; Heb. 6:20; 9:24; 10:20; 1 Pet. 2: 21.

Vengle how does Heb 10:20 stand out!!!!

by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,

Vengle said:

An 180 degree out of phase good morning Insight, from the other side of the world.

Click to expand...

Good evening here in Australia.

First day of summer and a cool one!

Insight

Insight said:

Christ did not die as our substitute, but as our representative. If Christ had died as a substitute, there would have been no forbearance on the part of God, for when a debt is paid, there is no room for forbearance. Jesus died as a member of a sinful race. All that can be affirmed of the nature of his brethren can be affirmed of him (Gal. 4: 4; Heb. 2:17; 4:15; Job 14:4).

" Christ died for (not instead of) us " (Rom. 5:8).

All he did was " for us ", in the sense of, " on our account ".

But, in order so to do, he had to " partake " of the same nature, and, hence it was, he himself had to obtain salvation (Psalm 91:16).

For evidence that " for us " does not mean as a substitute, or " instead of us ", see the following texts :

Luke 1: 69; Rom. 8:32; 1 Cor. 5:7; 2 Cor. 5: 21; Gal.3:18; Heb. 6:20; 9:24; 10:20; 1 Pet. 2: 21.

Vengle how does Heb 10:20 stand out!!!!

by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,



Good evening here in Australia.

First day of summer and a cool one!

Insight

Click to expand...

It will be winter here in less than a month away.


Don't be shocked Insight but I do not quite see Jesus' bearing man's nature as necessarily meaning that he literally bore Adam's sin in his own flesh. My point is that we make too much out of the flesh. On its own the flesh is nothing more than we make it to be in terms of its purity.

Look at my post #461 and remember that Jesus' Father was Yahweh. Adam was not Jesus' Father.

Jesus was never a seed in Adam's loins to have Adam's sin be attributable to him as we see in the principle of how Levi gave tithes in Abram. That principle well shows how the punishment for Adam's sin is passed also to us. I emphasize 'the punishment, the iniquity brought on us by Adam's sin'. That punishment is what David referred to having been shapen in. This is what the OT speaks of concerning "the the iniquity of the father visited on the sons." It refers to the punishment that are complications of that father having sinned. It does not mean at all that the son has to commit sin because his father committed sin.

We even miss-represent what man's nature is in our words. Man's nature is not different angels in that a perfect being can also choose to think selfishly as Lucifer is intimated to have done.

We are different than they only in terms of our physical as compared to their spirit bodies. And in the powers God chooses to give them as compared to us.

Review all of the posts I have made from at least #444

I grow as I go and there is no shame in it. I feel no shame in it and therefore am free to grow. The iron sharpening iron means there is light to be had in the sparks of our differences in thoughts which we can only grow by if we rejoice over them instead of resenting them. That is the difference between clashing and sharpening.

It is all in the kind of stroke we choose it to be.

Vengle said:

Don't be shocked Insight but I do not quite see Jesus' bearing man's nature as necessarily meaning that he literally bore Adam's sin in his own flesh. My point is that we make too much out of the flesh. .

Click to expand...

I agree with what you have said.

Jesus inherited a nature which came as a result of Adams sin. I also do not believe he "actually" bore Adams sin as you say literally in his body.

Although his body represents a fallen race.

I do disagree with your later comment, only in that the Apostle's spoke more of Jesus' nature than his divine origin.

There is good reason for this as we have been discussing of late.

Every principle of salvation is found in the body and blood of Jesus Christ, without which no man can be saved. In fact one cannot understand the Spirit of God if he knows not the sacrifice of Christ.

This is why Paul said the cross is foolishness to them that are perishing.

The point I was making though poorly in regards to representation verse substitution is this.

Not everyone will ultimately be saved because Christ " gave himself a ransom for all " (1 Tim 2:6)

Now if he paid a ransom to God which is a debt fully paid then all poeples would expect to be saved.

Not so.

Christ gave himself as a ransom for all those who comply with his conditions; and those conditions (Mark 16:15) are
available for all; without money and without price (Isa. 55:1; Matt. 11:28)

The substitution theory places the onus back on God and makes him the debtor whereas with Christ death being a representation of humanity we are indebted to also crucify our lusts and passions.


Insight

Insight said:

I agree with what you have said.

Jesus inherited a nature which came as a result of Adams sin. I also do not believe he "actually" bore Adams sin as you say literally in his body.

Although his body represents a fallen race.

Click to expand...

My pitiful brain gets easily swamped so I am turning your comment into two or three separate issues for me to answer.

We are in total agreement in terms of what his wearing that body represented. That body was born under the same consequences for Adam's sin as we are all born under. That is only because the flesh, it was Adam's flesh born to the environment created of Adam's sin. But the life in the blood was of the Father Yahweh.

So though Jesus bore that body he was not guilty of that bodies history to be by that history in Adam worthy of the death that clung to that body. For the life in his blood was not the life that was in Adam but only the flesh was Adam.

Thus he as a perfect person was handed our handicap which was due to Adam's sin so that he could show us how a perfect mind (a spirit lead of God's spirit and not that flesh) would deal with it.

have I made that more confusing. :lol:

Yeah or Nay?

Vengle

Once a believer comes to understand the nature of Jesus’ sacrifice they must fix our attention on his character, only there will we find the the righteousness of God was declared in the crucifixion of a guileless and sinless and perfect man.

We must first of all ask who he was.

He is the Son of God

Insight said:

Vengle

Once a believer comes to understand the nature of Jesus’ sacrifice they must fix our attention on his character, only there will we find the the righteousness of God was declared in the crucifixion of a guileless and sinless and perfect man.

We must first of all ask who he was.

He is the Son of God

Click to expand...

Amen

So then do we agree that though Jesus wore that body he was not guilty of that body's connections to the flesh which thus shows how great his love in accepting to bear that burden on our behalf?

Which we see in Paul's speaking of the body as a mere tent.

I am trying to show that we need to not give our body of flesh more credit than is due it. It has no choice but to go where the person of our spirit who is the real us goes. Thus it had no choice in Adam's loins but to go with Adam where Adam's spirit in his mind and heart went.

You see, we have bought an illusion as to what constitutes life. Our flesh is not what constitutes life.

Did you know that "eternal life" at 1 Timothy 6:19 actually is "the real life" in the Greek?

Look up the word "eternal" there.

Vengle said:

Amen

So then do we agree that though Jesus wore that body he was not guilty of that body's connections to the flesh which thus shows how great his love in accepting to bear that burden on our behalf?

Which we see in Paul's speaking of the body as a mere tent.

I am trying to show that we need to not give our body of flesh more credit than is due it. It has no choice but to go where the person of our spirit who is the real us goes. Thus it had no choice in Adam's loins but to go with Adam where Adam's spirit in his mind and heart went.

You see, we have bought an illusion as to what constitutes life. Our flesh is not what constitutes life.

Did you know that "eternal life" at 1 Timothy 6:19 actually is "the real life" in the Greek?

Look up the word "eternal" there.

Click to expand...

When Jesus hung upon the cross what exactly was his Father teaching the world about flesh?

Insight said:

When Jesus hung upon the cross what exactly was his Father teaching the world about flesh?

Click to expand...

Numerous lessons, but principally the love that is God and His Son.

This man is bearing your sin in that he loved you even knowing you would do this because of the evil in you. Look at this ultimate act of love by one who would so patiently bear your sins as you spat upon him and persecuted him most every day of his life since he was revealed to you. His only crime: 'Loving God and fellow with his whole heart and with his whole soul and with his whole mind.' (John 15:13)

If that does not convince men to look at the defect in themselves (in effect, convict them of sin), what will?

That becomes a powerful tool in our hand as an minister of the message of reconciliation.

And we therefore beseech all, "Become reconciled to God."

We do not want to unwittingly demote that it was the love of God which lives in Christ which bore our sins.

That requires we achieve a balance to our thinking which the holy spirit helps us to learn.

Many see only this to the exclusion of what it really implies we must do.

Many dismiss it entirely by a view which leaves it out.

Vengle said:

Numerous lessons, but principally the love that is God and His Son.

This man is bearing your sin in that he loved you even knowing you would do this because of the evil in you. Look at this ultimate act of love by one who would so patiently bear your sins as you spat upon him and persecuted him most every day of his life since he was revealed to you. His only crime: 'Loving God and fellow with his whole heart and with his whole soul and with his whole mind.' (John 15:13)

If that does not convince men to look at the defect in themselves (in effect, convict them of sin), what will?

Click to expand...

Vengle,

We know Yahweh is all powerful and all knowing and if He could have found a way to save (fallen) flesh; He would have done so, however in crucifying His Son he displayed to the entire world the true worth of sin's flesh.

The nature of Jesus was only good for one thing.

Crucifixtion and Death.

However in that death Yahweh wrought eternal redemption for all God's children in His Son's split blood.

Matthew 26:28. "This is my blood" he said, in handing the cup to them, "which is shed for many".

Heb. 10:19: "Having therefore boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way".

There is no superstition regarding his blood, and his physical blood is nowhere to be found...he poured it out upon the ground.

The blood is powerful only in the principles Yahweh attributes to it.

Its a matter of faith in those saving principles which saves.

Insight

Insight said:

Vengle,

We know Yahweh is all powerful and all knowing and if He could have found a way to save (fallen) flesh; He would have done so, however in crucifying His Son he displayed to the entire world the true worth of sin's flesh.

The nature of Jesus was only good for one thing.

Crucifixtion and Death.

However in that death Yahweh wrought eternal redemption for all God's children in His Son's split blood.

Matthew 26:28. "This is my blood" he said, in handing the cup to them, "which is shed for many".

Heb. 10:19: "Having therefore boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way".

There is no superstition regarding his blood, and his physical blood is nowhere to be found...he poured it out upon the ground.

The blood is powerful only in the principles Yahweh attributes to it.

Its a matter of faith in those saving principles which saves.

Insight

Click to expand...

I am going to choose not to respond to this until you have more time to think about what you have just said.

Vengle said:

I am going to choose not to respond to this until you have more time to think about what you have just said.

Click to expand...

Bear in mind that as Abel's blood cried out from the ground so also Christ's.

Genesis 4:10 "And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground."

Luke 11:51 "From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation."

Vengle said:

I am going to choose not to respond to this until you have more time to think about what you have just said.

Click to expand...

Unless you have misunderstood - I am comfortable with what is written.

Bear in mind that as Abel's blood cried out from the ground so also Christ's.

Click to expand...

It cry's out in that Yahweh understood (all seeing) the great pain and suffering that occured in his unjust death.

You said, "The nature of Jesus was only good for one thing. Crucifixion and Death."

And you are sure you are comfortable with that?

Even if in your mind you do not see it in a way that is disrespectful of Christ, why would you say it that way knowing it will instantly stop up the ears of many from desiring to hear you out?

All saying it that way is good for is to anger men like as BibleScribe.

I would just bet that most all of them, us2are1 and all would be angered by the way that is stated. And who can blame them?

Vengle said:

You said, "The nature of Jesus was only good for one thing. Crucifixion and Death."

And you are sure you are comfortable with that?

Even if in your mind you do not see it in a way that is disrespectful of Christ, why would you say it that way knowing it will instantly stop up the ears of many from desiring to hear you out?

Click to expand...

Vengle what do you think Gal 5:24 means?

Jesus understood the Father's will that his body and its lusts and passions must be put to death...there was no other way.

From a young age Jesus knew he was a lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Read Isa 53:10 and explain how God was pleased to bruise His Son?

For what reasons?

Eph 4:8 speaks of how he himself was held captive! And how in putting to death his weak nature he took captivity captive.

You know Vengle, this goes to the heart of the matter.

Let me ask you this.

Is God, a God of the Living, or the dead?

So what use does the Father have with a nature that is condemned to die over and over again.

So what was condemned in his sacrifice - in his broken body and poured out blood what precisely did God condemn?

Rom 8:3 in a living sacrifice?

What did he condemn Rom 8:3? SIN

And where was it condemned in Rom 8:3? FLESH

So the body Jesus was raised in was it the same flesh held under sentence of death?

What type of Body was Jesus raised to????

A nature of a Living God?

What did the spots on a lamb picture?

And where did that which was pictured by the spots reside?

Can that be said true of Jesus?

What really was Jesus' nature and from where did he draw that nature?

Why would the bread which symbolized his body of flesh be eaten by us if what you said is true?

Galatians 5:24 means we rise in that body with him because it did not deserve death and so was resurrected of the Father. We must let go of our flesh to take to us his.

We crucified him unjustly and we now in effect exchange our body for his. There is that redemption, that exchange.

This is why we see that Jesus flesh and bone was resurrected. That is why none of his bones were allowed to be broken.

Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

Vengle said:

You said, "The nature of Jesus was only good for one thing. Crucifixion and Death."

And you are sure you are comfortable with that?

Even if in your mind you do not see it in a way that is disrespectful of Christ, why would you say it that way knowing it will instantly stop up the ears of many from desiring to hear you out?

Click to expand...

Vengle,

Our attitude towards our nature must be the same as Jesus Christ everyday.

Gal 5:24 tells us exactly the attitude of mind in relation to our nature.

We must put its desires and evil imaginations to death at every oppertunity.

Rev 2:7KJV Overcome what?
Rev 2:11KJV Overcome what?
Rev 2:26KJV Overcome what?
Rev 3:5KJV Overcome what?
Rev 3:12,21 and so on....

Vengle said:

What did the spots on a lamb picture?

And where did that which was pictured by the spots reside?

Can that be said true of Jesus?

What really was Jesus' nature and from where did he draw that nature?

Why would the bread which symbolized his body of flesh be eaten by us if what you said is true?

Click to expand...

His offering was without spot and blemish.

Vengle

I think the language I am using is severe, I appreciate that it may even sound insensitive. I mean no harm but to speak only truth.

The reality is our Lord Jesus Christ, the living Jesus, WAS a dead body!

In "life" he was "dead" already.

After his resurrection the emblems of his death were still visible!

He was a man who was born to die, who lived a "death" to the flesh, and who -- even now -- is the Lamb who had been slain (Rev 13:8)!

I know you are not in this catagory...but those who deny him (and his view of human nature) are spoken of as crucifying him yet again (Heb 6:6; 10:29).

Because they turn again to satify its lust and passions.

Insight

In your post it is obvious you did not see what I also what I added regarding Gal. 5:24 as you were busy typing. But nether did you answer all of the questions I asked that you did see.

I have another thing to bring to your attention that you may or may not have ever seen before.

One moment. I will type it as an add on here unless it turns out you were busy typing while i wrote this instead of waiting for my response. I sometimes detect anxiousness in you causing you to do that. Let's dispel all anxiousness and replace it with patience.

I knew it, I just received a flash of another message being posted and would just bet it is you.

yes, it was you.

Insight said:

Vengle

I think the language I am using is severe, I appreciate that it may even sound insensitive. I mean no harm but to speak only truth.

The reality is our Lord Jesus Christ, the living Jesus, WAS a dead body!

In "life" he was "dead" already.

After his resurrection the emblems of his death were still visible!

He was a man who was born to die, who lived a "death" to the flesh, and who -- even now -- is the Lamb who had been slain (Rev 13:8)!

I know you are not in this catagory...but those who deny him (and his view of human nature) are spoken of as crucifying him yet again (Heb 6:6; 10:29).

Because they turn again to satify its lust and passions.

Insight

Click to expand...

I made the mistake of reading this and true to my pitiful brain it made me forget what I was going to tell you which I think you may have never before considered. It will come to me again with me having patience with myself. :lol:


Anyway, there is much you are overlooking. And I am trying desperately to be as least offensive as possible in helping you to see it. I mean in no way to offend you and I certainly am not at all accusing you of ignorance. I also know that you are without doubt sincere in your heart, a very endearing quality which Yahweh is very fond of.

Slow down and ponder this thought for a short as to what you said here: "In "life" he was "dead" already."

John 5:26 "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;" (already given life in himself)

John 10:17 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again."

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."

John 6:48 "I am that bread of life."

John 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

John 6:54 "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."