The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

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Ronald Nolette

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Where does Revelation 20 or any other New Testament passage teach the reintroduction of the old covenant blood sacrifices for sin?

Well they don't. but the Old TEstament is filled with passages that god commanded and h ave not yet happened. When God says it will come to pass- we can bank on it coming to pass.

But before I post any of thse- any the questions I asked please.
 

WPM

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Well they don't. but the Old TEstament is filled with passages that god commanded and h ave not yet happened. When God says it will come to pass- we can bank on it coming to pass.

But before I post any of thse- any the questions I asked please.

Can I remind you, that since the Old Testament times, Jesus Christ has come and fully abolished the old covenant Mosaic animal sacrifice system through His death?
 

WPM

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Even if he is the 1st to be graphic about this particular point, it certainly doesn't mean he had no preceding teaching to base his own thoughts on? I should think he would avoid depending on heretical Premil teachings, as you already suggested wasn't done. If he derived his teachings from the Jews, it is debatable whether their material was legitimate or not. Jesus certainly didn't dismiss all that the Jews believed about their future hope.

We cannot base anything on speculation and silence.

Since Chiliasm fell on hard times and Amil ascended, perhaps some material was edited out or destroyed? I don't know, but I certainly don't know they "deliberately" avoided talking about the verse in Rev 20 dealing with the "final outbreak." Perhaps their main interest was focusing on the hope of current Christians, rather than on speculating about the final battle of the Millennium?

Are you creating a new conspiracy theory?

I agree with you here that the Chiliasts tended towards Replacement Theology, although I do recall reading in one of the early Church Fathers the admission that the Jews had maintained their hope, possibly legitimately. But I can't find the quote! ;)

Nevertheless, I agree that the Church Fathers, almost from the start, gave up on belief in the "Jewish Hope." I continue to believe, personally, that both Jesus and Paul taught the "Jewish Hope" in the Age to Come, ie at the 2nd Coming.

Not ‘Replacement Theology’ but ‘Expansion Theology’. As we have already established: it is you that promotes Replacement Theology by your replacement of ethnic Israel with the ethnic Gentile nations. Amils see the NT Church as the expansion of true faithful believing Israel.

I agree that the Church Fathers would not have countenanced restoration of Jewish ritual, even though Paul used it to reach out to his fellow Jews. The NT condemns teaching that we should continue to pursue justification through the Law!

Dispensationalists teach the Jews will return to their Law as a matter of ethnic tradition, specifically mandated by God, completely separate from the matter of Salvation. So there is no alignment with ancient heretics who may have viewed 2 gods, one of Law and one of Grace.

This is not an effort to restart our corrosive conversation, but just to contribute my thoughts for your consideration. I was raised Amil in theology, and very much agree with the less-than-Jewish focus on Salvation. At the same time, I think Jews should be made to feel welcome to come to the cross.

The sad fact is: most Premillennialists today promote the return of the old covenant arrangement.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Can I remind you, that since the Old Testament times, Jesus Christ has come and fully abolished the old covenant Mosaic animal sacrifice system through His death?


I will give you one to nibble on, but just one until y9ou answer my questions.

In the millennial kingdom here on earth that will last for 1,000 years. representatives from all gentile nations that are repopulating the earth (from the survivors of the tribulation or 70th week of Daniel) will have to come to Jerusalem and celebrate the feast of tabernacles and present offerings at the Millennial temple. If a nation does not, their nation will have a drought that year.

Zechariah 14:16-19
King James Version

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Now this cannot be in eternity for there is no sin in heaven!

Also

Revelation 2:27
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

You do not need to rule perfected people with a rod of iron!
God is not going to break the saved into shivers.

But if you read the bible in a normal usual way this makes perfect saense that there is going to be a kingdom on earth for 1,000 ears. People are going to enter the kingdom, repopulate it and though Satan will be abyssed, man will still fail and Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. What that means specifically- Don't know.
 

WPM

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I will give you one to nibble on, but just one until y9ou answer my questions.

In the millennial kingdom here on earth that will last for 1,000 years. representatives from all gentile nations that are repopulating the earth (from the survivors of the tribulation or 70th week of Daniel) will have to come to Jerusalem and celebrate the feast of tabernacles and present offerings at the Millennial temple. If a nation does not, their nation will have a drought that year.

Zechariah 14:16-19
King James Version

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Now this cannot be in eternity for there is no sin in heaven!

Also

Revelation 2:27
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

You do not need to rule perfected people with a rod of iron!
God is not going to break the saved into shivers.

But if you read the bible in a normal usual way this makes perfect saense that there is going to be a kingdom on earth for 1,000 ears. People are going to enter the kingdom, repopulate it and though Satan will be abyssed, man will still fail and Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. What that means specifically- Don't know.

Not at all.
  1. Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?
  2. Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?
  3. Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?
  4. Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?
  5. Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?
  6. Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?
  7. Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?
 

WPM

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proof? Scriptures, and historic details please. Just saying they are fulfilled means nothing- show them fulfilled.

Really?

Romans 6:10 says, he died unto sin once.”

Hebrews 7:27 says of Christ and His final atonement, “Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.”

Hebrews 9:26 confirms: “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

Hebrews 9:12 explains, “by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”

Hebrews 9:28 explains that "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many.”

Hebrews 10:10 says,
“we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Hebrews 10:12 says, “this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.”

Hebrews 10:14 says, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

1 Peter 3:18 says, “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.”

Christ put an end of sin by this final transaction for sin, thus making an end of sin forever for those who would believe. There will never again be a sacrifice for sin. Christ’s atonement satisfied heaven’s holy demands and ensured that there would never again be another sacrifice/offering for sin carrying God’s blessing.

Hebrews 10:18 says, there is no more offering for sin.”

Hebrews 10:26 says, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”
 

Ronald Nolette

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Not at all.
  1. Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?
  2. Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?
  3. Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?
  4. Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?
  5. Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?
  6. Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?
  7. Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

Once you answer my questions we can gladly move on.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Really?

Romans 6:10 says, he died unto sin once.”

Hebrews 7:27 says of Christ and His final atonement, “Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.”

Hebrews 9:26 confirms: “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

Hebrews 9:12 explains, “by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”

Hebrews 9:28 explains that "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many.”

Hebrews 10:10 says,
“we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Hebrews 10:12 says, “this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.”

Hebrews 10:14 says, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

1 Peter 3:18 says, “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.”

Christ put an end of sin by this final transaction for sin, thus making an end of sin forever for those who would believe. There will never again be a sacrifice for sin. Christ’s atonement satisfied heaven’s holy demands and ensured that there would never again be another sacrifice/offering for sin carrying God’s blessing.

Hebrews 10:18 says, there is no more offering for sin.”

Hebrews 10:26 says, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”

Not one of these is an answer to the questions I asked you . Once you answer those we can move on.
 

farouk

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I will give you one to nibble on, but just one until y9ou answer my questions.

In the millennial kingdom here on earth that will last for 1,000 years. representatives from all gentile nations that are repopulating the earth (from the survivors of the tribulation or 70th week of Daniel) will have to come to Jerusalem and celebrate the feast of tabernacles and present offerings at the Millennial temple. If a nation does not, their nation will have a drought that year.

Zechariah 14:16-19
King James Version

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Now this cannot be in eternity for there is no sin in heaven!

Also

Revelation 2:27
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

You do not need to rule perfected people with a rod of iron!
God is not going to break the saved into shivers.

But if you read the bible in a normal usual way this makes perfect saense that there is going to be a kingdom on earth for 1,000 ears. People are going to enter the kingdom, repopulate it and though Satan will be abyssed, man will still fail and Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. What that means specifically- Don't know.
@Ronald Nolette A strong argument in my simple mind is that in 1 Cor. 11.26 the Lord's coming - in the passage about the Lord's Supper - clearly links with the church.
 

Ronald Nolette

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What is your question? Your posts are as clear as mud.

Scroll back les than a page and you will see clearly delineated questions.

You must bve good at reading mud because you have no problem with firing back. I asked them 2-3 times already. I don't believe you are that thick as to not have seen them.
 

Ronald Nolette

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More avoidance.


Yes you are. I asked these questions long before you asked these new ones. so either you are one of teh rudest people here or you are just trying to dodge having to answer questions yourself. Which one I care not, but we will not progress untill you answer my questions for a change. I have answered numerous questions of yours. Your turn to provide answers.

Also I want names and cites for all the accusations you made against pre-mils, as I have asked for several times. I haven't forgotten you have avoided proving your accusations against brethren either.
 

WPM

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Yes you are. I asked these questions long before you asked these new ones. so either you are one of teh rudest people here or you are just trying to dodge having to answer questions yourself. Which one I care not, but we will not progress untill you answer my questions for a change. I have answered numerous questions of yours. Your turn to provide answers.

Also I want names and cites for all the accusations you made against pre-mils, as I have asked for several times. I haven't forgotten you have avoided proving your accusations against brethren either.

I have little interest in reading your posts. I have zero interest in searching for some obscure question in the midst of your speculations. Thanks for the conversation.
 
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Randy Kluth

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You know this is not true. Most Premils i have engaged with believe in the full reinstitution of the redundant old covenant arrangement with its multiple additional sin offerings to atone for the sins of man in the future (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25, 44:27, 29, 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 46:20, Zechariah 14:16-21). They advocate the restarting of the “meat offering” (Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29, 45:15, 17, 24, 25, 46:5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 20, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “trespass offering” (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 44:29, 46:20, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “burnt offerings” (Ezekiel 40:38, 39, 42, 43:18, 24, 27, 44:11, 45:15, 17, 23, 25, 46:2, 4, 12, 13, 15, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “peace offerings” (Ezekiel 43:27, 45:15, 17, 46:2, 12, Zechariah 14:16-21) and the “drink offerings” (Ezekiel 45:17, Zechariah 14:16-21).

No, I was being sincere and honest with you brother. I don't know any Dispensationalist who believes that Jewish rituals in the Millennial period are a return back to the Old Covenant except as a memorial tradition. The closest some come to it might be some of the Jewish Messianic groups, but I doubt that even they believe their redemption ceases to be based on Christ's blood, and instead rests on their own works under a restored Law of Moses.
 

WPM

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No, I was being sincere and honest with you brother. I don't know any Dispensationalist who believes that Jewish rituals in the Millennial period are a return back to the Old Covenant except as a memorial tradition. The closest some come to it might be some of the Jewish Messianic groups, but I doubt that even they believe their redemption ceases to be based on Christ's blood, and instead rests on their own works under a restored Law of Moses.

They do believe these very old covenant sin sacrifices will literally return. They are either efficacious or they are a circus.
 

Randy Kluth

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That is simply not true, and you know it.

No, Paul--I don't "know it!" I wouldn't be discussing these things if I already "knew it." ;)

The early Chiliasts like Amils past and present saw Christ ushering a new perfect glorified state devoid of all corruption.

Let me stop you right there. All Christians believe this, Amils and Premils. So there is nothing particularly "Amil" about the belief that Christ's Coming will usher in a great new world, replete with glorified, perfect Christians and a sinful world tamed by Christian rule and domination.

That is what these patristic testimonies described. No where did they describe sin and sinners, deceit and deception, dying in crying, disease and decay, Satan and his minions, war and terror in the age to come. Only the glorified saints were qualified to inherit the new earth. This is all classic Amillennialism, and anti-Premil. I have showed you multiple quotes to support this.

Again, this is an argument from silence. Not mentioning sin, deceit, and dying is not an argument that they no longer exist. It is evidence that it wasn't important to be discussed.

It is relevant that the emphasis was on the opposite, the reality of incorruption and blessedfness. But as above, Premils believe in this too, albeit in a different way. I believe, as a Premil, that Christ's Coming will usher in incorruption for the saints who are glorified, and blessedness on earth when Christ tames the sinful world. Why then would I emphasize sin, deceit, and dying, if these things are being kept in check, even if still present to some degree?

The burden of proof is with you to show all the classic ingredients that mark the Premil age to come like the continuation of sin, sinners, mortals, sexual intercourse, procreation, marriage, decay, the curse, corruption, the elevation of natural Israel above all other ethnic groups a renewal of the Jewish sacrifice system, carnal pleasure like procreating in the age to come, the binding of Satan for 1,000 years+ after the second coming, Christ reigning in Jerusalem over His enemies for 1,000 years upon David’s throne, the release of Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming, the revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium, being advocated by the early Chiliasts. It is simply not there! If I am wrong, bring your evidence to the table. So far, you have brought nothing.

I'll bring you what I've brought for years. The Jewish Hope is presented in the OT Prophets, and acknowledged as such by both Jews and Premil Christians. As I said, Jesus and Paul both believed in the Jewish Hope.

Jesus spoke of the great regathering of Jews in his Olivet Discourse--he was at that time still speaking under the OT to Jews. And later, in Acts 1.7 he spoke to his apostles of the need to let God determine the time of the restoration of Israel.

Paul spoke of the salvation of "all Israel" in Rom 11. It may be disputable for some, but once again, this is what I'm "bringing to the table" as evidence for Christian belief in the "Jewish Hope."

Again, Chiliasts should not be expected to speak of sin, deceit, and death in a world they believe will be tamed by Christ at his Coming. So why do you want evidence that they believe in such? They are not trying to prove that humans are still mortal or have the Sin Nature, since this is assumed as long as the world continues, up until the final judgment.

What they are rather trying to prove is that Christ's reign will begin at his Coming, leading to the complete judgment of Satan at Antichrist's destruction. The Chiliasts, therefore, are not seeking to prove the continuation of sin, but rather, the defeat of Satan's rule over the earth. These are contrary concerns. You are seeking proof of something the Chiliasts had no concern to prove.

The primitive Chiliasts believed that the millennial earth ushered in at the appearing of Christ would be fully regenerated and therefore be perfect and pristine. Irenaeus is crystal clear in his idea of the age to come. To him it is totally purged of all the ugliness of the bondage of corruption. There would therefore be no more death or decay. The wicked and all wickedness were expected to be excluded from it. He testified:

Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God’s dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption, by means of which kingdom those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature (capere Deum) (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32)​

Irenaeus enlarges:

The predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead; when also the creation, having been renovated and set free, shall fructify with an abundance of all kinds of food, from the dew of heaven, and from the fertility of the earth: as the elders who saw John, the disciple of the Lord, related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times, and say: “The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand dusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster, another shall cry out, I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me. In like manner [the Lord declared] that ... all animals feeding [only] on the productions of the earth, should [in those days] become peaceful and harmonious among each other, and be in perfect subjection to man (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 33:3).​

Elsewhere he states:

For then there shall in truth be a common joy consummated to all those who believe unto life, and in each individual shall be confirmed the mystery of the Resurrection, and the hope of incorruption, and the commencement of the eternal kingdom, when God shall have destroyed death and the devil. For that human nature and flesh which has risen again from the dead shall die no more; but after it had been changed to incorruption, and made like to spirit, when the heaven was opened, [our Lord] full of glory offered it (the flesh) to the Father (Fragment L).​

Irenaeus saw the removal of corruption and the introduction of incorruption as occurring at the coming of Christ. He views a future millennial kingdom as the start of incorruption. He backs this up by demonstrating that death and the devil are destroyed at this climactic event. This cuts across modern-day Premillennialism...
Irenaeus definitely anticipates the arrival of a perfect new earth after Jesus returns. The curse is gone.

These quotes are fine, and may or may not apply to my line of argument. Again, I'm saying that I and Premils believe that Christ comes to rule with his glorified people, who have been resurrected from the dead and now enjoy a sinless, incorruptible life. The blessed condition you quote from Irenaeus indicates that *glorified Christians* will see this blessedness, and not necessarily the entire earth and mortal men.

There is no indication he believes, in these quotes, that all men are now made immortal and therefore blessed. As far as I know, these references indicate only that glorified saints will enjoy the blessings of incorruptibility.

The earth, too, will be different because the saints will *rule,* as Irenaeus stated above. That could mean that sinful humanity is now penned in, and kept from waging war against godly nations, causing a measure of peace to reign on earth, which is, again, another kind of state of blessedness. Could the Chiliasts be thinking of this?

So it boils down to, are there statements to the effect that the Chiliasts believed that mortality was completely removed at Christ's return, and that Christians rule over nobody?

Irenaeus: ...the predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead...

Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

Matt 19.28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
 
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