Christ as the firstborn

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us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
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If you cannot understand the natural body how will you ever understand the spiritual body?
Insight

The Spiritual has no body. God is Spirit and the only Body He ever Had was Christ the Lord. Now The Body of Christ should be you.






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Vengle

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Sep 22, 2011
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Gentleman, Insight asked, "Was Eve born of a sinner?"

He asked this because he believes we are born as sinners. He believes the body itself is born with an inherited nature of sin and so it must sin. But if that were true and his concoction that Jesus was also born to that imaginary nature was also true, then the Law would have killed Jesus as it did everyone else. Because until Jesus learned obedience he would have sinned and if he had sinned then the Law already would have killed him.

This is what I have been talking about as padlocks to our ability to learn which padlocks are our little wrong ideas upon which we then build other beliefs.

I challenge any and all persons to show even one scripture from the Bible that actually point blank says we are BORN AS a sinner.

I am telling that is a false idea born of misinterpretation. There is a huge difference between being BORN TO sin and being BORN AS a sinner.

This sin nature idea is nothing more than a machination of Satan to excuse the consciences of those who enjoy sin and need an excuse not to have to depart from it so quickly, giving them time to enjoy dabbling their lusts in it.

We do not need an imaginary sin nature to excuse us as we have the grace and mercy of God to do that. But the grace and mercy of God is not enough for these individuals because it requires us to cease dabbling in sin. And as the pleasures of sin is where their heart really is they seek a way to excuse them to be there.

Sin nature is a false idea based on faulty interpretation of a handful of scriptures.

A fetus in the womb is yet innocent. Some think Esau being hated in the womb proves that wrong. But that is misunderstanding as it is not a moral hatred being spoken of there but a preference of one over the other purely to demonstrate God's right to choose. (Luke 14:26; Romans 9:11)

I challenge anyone to prove I am wrong in the scriptures. I know they cannot because I know every single scripture they will try to use and I understand why they think those scriptures say what they say, but I also understand why those scriptures do not say what they think they say.

Boy that was a mouthful. :lol:
 

us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
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There is such a thing as a spiritual body and Jesus is the first one to have one and we too will have one like His.

Not yet there isn't because that has to do with the resurrection from the dead. That is the dwelling Place that Christ went to build for the saints. Here is the scripture.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.

2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.





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Buzzfruit

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Aug 21, 2011
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Not yet there isn't because that has to do with the resurrection from the dead. That is the dwelling Place that Christ went to build for the saints. Here is the scripture.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.

2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

That's why I said will. Meaning we don't have it yet. But Jesus has a spiritual body.
 

Buzzfruit

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Aug 21, 2011
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Gentleman, Insight asked, "Was Eve born of a sinner?"

Its incorrect for him to use the word born in reference to Eve. Eve was not born, she was made just as Adam was. They never had to grow up into an adult body....they were made with an Adult body and did not have to learn to walk or talk.....all that was created in them when God made them. And everything that God creates or made does not have flaw or in the case of human beings, Adam and Eve were made in God’s image and therefore have the ability to make their own choice, and that creates the possibility to sinning. Adam and Eve sinned because human nature was not enough to resist sin. God knew this but God knows that in the end His will for man will come to pass.
 

Vengle

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Sep 22, 2011
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I had not noticed that Buzz :lol: "Eve born of a sinner"

1 Corinthians 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption."
Who sowed that body in corruption and how did they do that sowing?

1 Corinthians 15:43 "It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power."
Who sowed that body in dishonor and how did they do that dishonoring?

The above is not about nature it is about someone doing the sowing.

Galatians 6:7 "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation."

Genesis 6:12 "And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth."

Exodus 32:7 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves."

Deuteronomy 9:12 "And the LORD said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image."

Judges 2:19 "And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way."

Hosea 9:9 "They have deeply corrupted themselves, as in the days of Gibeah: therefore he will remember their iniquity, he will visit their sins."

Zephaniah 3:7 I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them: but they rose early, and corrupted all their doings.

How did they do that sowing in corruption and dishonor? By ignoring God and doing as it seemed good to themselves in their inexperience.

That is the tragedy of the "sin nature" falsehood. It obscures that the real problem is man's inexperience due to man's ignorance of God. And there is a wealth of learning awaiting those that are willing to turn to their Bibles to learn about experience verses inexperience rather than accepting this can't do sin nature machination.

Psalms 19:7; 116:; 119:130; Proverbs 1:4,22,32; 9:4,6; 14:15,18; 19:25; 21:11; 22:3; 27:12

1 Corinthians 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption."
Who sowed that body in corruption and how did they do that sowing?

1 Corinthians 15:43 "It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power."
Who sowed that body in dishonor and how did they do that dishonoring?

Judges 17:6 "In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes."

Jeremiah 10:23-24 "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. O LORD, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing."

Why is our way not in ourselves? INEXPERIENCE. If we make God's way our way that problem is solved and we then cease to corrupt ourselves. We then cease sowing our bodies to corruption. And then God will bless us with life and immortality so that death becomes gone forever.
 

Vengle

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Sep 22, 2011
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1 Corinthians 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption."
How is it possible that even though we have sown our bodies to corruption we are able to be raised incorruptible?

1 Corinthians 15:43 "It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power."
How is it possible that even though we have sown our bodies to dishonor we are able to be raised to honor? How is possible that though we have in the past sown our bodies in weakness we can let them be raised to power now and have strength for all things now?

If we always see these things only as literal death and resurrection we miss the most important aspect of what Paul is telling us.

Just as being born again is a spiritual rebirth, so also the most important thing we need to see about our resurrection is also spiritual.

We need not worry about the physical for if we focus on the spiritual God will take care of the physical and we will know how to ceremonially cleanse and make holy the physical for use in His temple now.
 

Buzzfruit

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Aug 21, 2011
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1 Corinthians 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption."
How is it possible that even though we have sown our bodies to corruption we are able to be raised incorruptible?

1 Corinthians 15:43 "It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power."
How is it possible that even though we have sown our bodies to dishonor we are able to be raised to honor? How is possible that though we have in the past sown our bodies in weakness we can let them be raised to power now and have strength for all things now?

If we always see these things only as literal death and resurrection we miss the most important aspect of what Paul is telling us.

Just as being born again is a spiritual rebirth, so also the most important thing we need to see about our resurrection is also spiritual.

We need not worry about the physical for if we focus on the spiritual God will take care of the physical and we will know how to ceremonially cleanse and make holy the physical for use in His temple now.


This sowing of the natural body did not start with us.......it started with Adam and we inherited that same natural body….. the verse says sown IN corruption. It did not say it was sown to corruption. The word "in" is also mentioned in verse 43 as well.

The resurrection is not a spiritual resurrection......it will be a physical resurrection. What kind of death did the righteous people of God died? Was it spiritual or a physical? People will literally see saints and prophets of God that have died, ascend into the sky along with Christians who were alive at Jesus' return.
 

Vengle

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Sep 22, 2011
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This sowing of the natural body did not start with us.......it started with Adam and we inherited that same natural body….. the verse says sown IN corruption. It did not say it was sown to corruption. The word "in" is also mentioned in verse 43 as well.

The resurrection is not a spiritual resurrection......it will be a physical resurrection. What kind of death did the righteous people of God died? Was it spiritual or a physical? People will literally see saints and prophets of God that have died, ascend into the sky along with Christians who were alive at Jesus' return.

You are partly correct. Just enough to confuse yourself. But for something to be "in" it must first be sown to. Adam sowed his body "to" corruption when he sinned. Then his offspring were sown "in" his corruption. Not "in" their own corruption but his, and that explains why we see that the hundreds of scriptures that show we can emulate that process.

Do you see the problem? You can interpret the phrase "sown in corruption" as meaning either that the body was "sown in [its] corruption" or that the body was "sown in [Adam's] corruption". And at 1 Corinthians 15: 42, 43 the focus is Adam so it means "in" Adam's corruption he sowed our bodies as contrasted to in the last Adam's body it is by his life giving spirit "raised in incorruption".

And you can interpret the phrase "sown in corruption" to mean that the body is corrupt or only that the sowing of the body was done under corrupted conditions. That it was sown under corrupted conditions is what the overwhelming bulk of the scriptures support if one gets the clogs out of their spiritual pipes so they can see it. The many are confusing it to mean the body sown to be "in" its own corruption and then all of the verses I posted above which prove we do that ourselves are robbed of their meaning. That is a horrible shame.

And of course the same applies to the phrases "sown in dishonor" and "sown in weakness". These were Adam's dishonor and Adam's weakness that he sowed our bodies while he was "in". Thus the sowing was done "in". As the many scriptures I posted show, it merely provides the environment that we exist in for it to be ripe for us to copy his example but we do not have to.

It is either that or you can go ahead and ignore all of those scriptures which show that whether are bodies are actually corrupted depends not on Adam's actions but on our own actions. Adam's actions merely set the bad example and made the environment ripe for it to be easy for us to repeat it (which we have all done because of that environment).

I appreciate you think you understand but you are not seeing deep enough and then that leaves too many loose ends to all of the scriptures I showed you.

Go back and review my discussion of David's words at Psalms 51: 5. I pointed out that the word "iniquity" merely means the punishment of Adam's sin. You can look that up yourself and see. It is saying not that our bodies are the "iniquity" but that they were shapen amidst Adam's iniquity and the conceived (conceived there is the act of birth) thus by birth delivered to an environment of sin. Quite the handicap to us don't you think?

If you want to you can get this.

I keep telling you guys I have believed what you believe. I have been where you are at. No idea you can speak is an idea I have not already known and even believed for a time. And then God advanced me further.

If it sounds like I am cocky that is your imagination. Do not let such thoughts be excuses for not thinking about what you are being told for that is why those thoughts crop up. That is their ill purpose. You have to want to learn bad enough to cast out all such thoughts and give things a chance.

I am confident because it is unmistakable to me who teaches me these things. It is not in the slightest something I have to guess about or ever be concerned that I might have only imagined it. It is as real as if you and I were face to face.
 

Vengle

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Sep 22, 2011
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Most people live, eat and breath the doctrine they believe.

I learned a long time ago to live, eat and breath the entirety of the scriptures that God has it all there to cause it to grow in me not as I will but as He wills.

My addressing things as I did in the last three paragraphs of post #591 may to some seem to seal it up that I am cocky. But if they would be honest with themselves they would see that they do draw the idea that I am cocky simply from explanations of scripture I give, already. So all I have said in the last three paragraphs is to address head-on what I know many already are telling themselves. :)

I offer it humbly for your benefit without concern for myself as to how you judge me but only concerned that somehow I might get you to move passed your judgments and focus on the message so as to actually think about what I am saying.

I am not speaking to you my own wisdom. I have no wisdom of my own. I have proved that all too well in the course of my life. That is why I gave completely up on trusting my own intelligence. If God did not give to me what to say you would see exactly how ordinary and uneducated I really am. :lol:

That is why I am so certain He can do it also with you.

I was a straight D's and F's student up until my last year of school which last full year was the eighth grade.

It is God that took over teaching me or I would be unable to do anything. Literally !!!

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Yes, I have by this point in time read many books and especially the Bible I have and do read continually. But I could not have begun to do it if He had not taught me. And as He continued to teach me I rejoiced and continue to rejoice in it with much effort as appreciation.
 

Vengle

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Sep 22, 2011
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I posted this in another thread but thought I should post it again here:

That very statement ("For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.") is true even of the man who begins as perfect but then turns to ignoring God. (Even as with Adam and Eve.)

All it takes to make that so is for a man to ignore God and seek to do good based upon his own level of knowledge and wisdom.

Even for a perfect man who suddenly chooses to ignore God, Jeremiah 10: 23 is true.

Fulness of humility would see that. Fulness of humility would never have a man seeking to be like God in that manner.

Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever..."

The question is, 'Are you humble enough to learn this? Or, will you cling to the attitude of Adam (thinking you can be like God someday with a new body) so that it prevents you from seeing?

Will you continue to blame it all on your body rather than on your attitude?

Or will you accept that it will always be true that only one is good and that one is God and all that is good comes from him?

James 1: 17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.'

Even Jesus rejected being called good and he was perfect: Luke 18:19 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

Do you get that the point is that there can be no good apart from God for he is the standard for what is good and bad and not you yourself?

If you do then you finally understand why there is no good in you or of you and never will be and you are beginning to think like Paul.

Even Jesus rejected seeing himself as the standard for what is good.
 

Vengle

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Sep 22, 2011
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I was made to realize this day that I need more often to say "we" instead of "you".

Understand please that often when I have said "you" I meant it in the plural form including myself.

The KJV does that. You, your, etc, is plural and means the whole group as apposed to the singular "thee, thou, and thine".

I apply all that I say to myself equally with anyone else so there is no call for offense.

But I do need to word myself more in accord with proper modern speaking.

besides that, there are times where I can speak thoughtlessly offensive. :)
 

Buzzfruit

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Aug 21, 2011
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You are partly correct. Just enough to confuse yourself. But for something to be "in" it must first be sown to. Adam sowed his body "to" corruption when he sinned. Then his offspring were sown "in" his corruption. Not "in" their own corruption but his, and that explains why we see that the hundreds of scriptures that show we can emulate that process.

Do you see the problem? You can interpret the phrase "sown in corruption" as meaning either that the body was "sown in [its] corruption" or that the body was "sown in [Adam's] corruption". And at 1 Corinthians 15: 42, 43 the focus is Adam so it means "in" Adam's corruption he sowed our bodies as contrasted to in the last Adam's body it is by his life giving spirit "raised in incorruption".

And you can interpret the phrase "sown in corruption" to mean that the body is corrupt or only that the sowing of the body was done under corrupted conditions. That it was sown under corrupted conditions is what the overwhelming bulk of the scriptures support if one gets the clogs out of their spiritual pipes so they can see it. The many are confusing it to mean the body sown to be "in" its own corruption and then all of the verses I posted above which prove we do that ourselves are robbed of their meaning. That is a horrible shame.

And of course the same applies to the phrases "sown in dishonor" and "sown in weakness". These were Adam's dishonor and Adam's weakness that he sowed our bodies while he was "in". Thus the sowing was done "in". As the many scriptures I posted show, it merely provides the environment that we exist in for it to be ripe for us to copy his example but we do not have to.

It is either that or you can go ahead and ignore all of those scriptures which show that whether are bodies are actually corrupted depends not on Adam's actions but on our own actions. Adam's actions merely set the bad example and made the environment ripe for it to be easy for us to repeat it (which we have all done because of that environment).

I appreciate you think you understand but you are not seeing deep enough and then that leaves too many loose ends to all of the scriptures I showed you.

Go back and review my discussion of David's words at Psalms 51: 5. I pointed out that the word "iniquity" merely means the punishment of Adam's sin. You can look that up yourself and see. It is saying not that our bodies are the "iniquity" but that they were shapen amidst Adam's iniquity and the conceived (conceived there is the act of birth) thus by birth delivered to an environment of sin. Quite the handicap to us don't you think?

If you want to you can get this.

I keep telling you guys I have believed what you believe. I have been where you are at. No idea you can speak is an idea I have not already known and even believed for a time. And then God advanced me further.

If it sounds like I am cocky that is your imagination. Do not let such thoughts be excuses for not thinking about what you are being told for that is why those thoughts crop up. That is their ill purpose. You have to want to learn bad enough to cast out all such thoughts and give things a chance.

I am confident because it is unmistakable to me who teaches me these things. It is not in the slightest something I have to guess about or ever be concerned that I might have only imagined it. It is as real as if you and I were face to face.


There is a reason why certain words are used by each author that make up the Bible. The same way one sow seeds in the soil the writer is letting us know that the natural body was sown in corruption.......this is talking about the grave. The person dies, is buried and the body decays. Then at the return of Jesus the body is raised immortal.......incorruptible.
 

us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
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1 Corinthians 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption."
How is it possible that even though we have sown our bodies to corruption we are able to be raised incorruptible?

1 Corinthians 15:43 "It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power."
How is it possible that even though we have sown our bodies to dishonor we are able to be raised to honor? How is possible that though we have in the past sown our bodies in weakness we can let them be raised to power now and have strength for all things now?

If we always see these things only as literal death and resurrection we miss the most important aspect of what Paul is telling us.

Just as being born again is a spiritual rebirth, so also the most important thing we need to see about our resurrection is also spiritual.

We need not worry about the physical for if we focus on the spiritual God will take care of the physical and we will know how to ceremonially cleanse and make holy the physical for use in His temple now.

I agree with what you say here Vengle

Faith in God is the key to Power now. The question is "how do we remove the doubt and increase faith"?



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Vengle

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Sep 22, 2011
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I agree with what you say here Vengle

Faith in God is the key to Power now. The question is "how do we remove the doubt and increase faith"?

.

Yes, that question is gold to be found.

It seems that Satan has sown a very diverse and complex web of false knowledge like as fool's gold, specifically to complicate our finding that answer.

It ends up being dependent upon how each one of us individually is willing to prepare our heart. We are responsible for keeping the soil of our hearts fully nourished of God's word and for what we let grow in our hearts which might strangle the things God desires to sow there.

That is what John the Baptist was telling all. We just as they need to prepare the way in our hearts to receive the Lord.

There at 1 Corinthians 15: 42, 43 Paul definitely has that in mind also, if not predominantly.
 

Vengle

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Sep 22, 2011
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Someone said, "If being in Christ is being in another man who simply has found favor with God, then we are IN someone in whom nothing good dwells!"

This was my reply:

I like the fact that you do at least try to reason on this. That is required of any of us before we can figure anything out. Many do not try at all to reason as you are doing, so that is very commendable of you.

Here is the key. We are as vessels that can be filled either by our own knowledge and wisdom (which in that case nothing good dwells in us) or by God's knowledge and wisdom (which in that case God's goodness dwells in us).

Now relate all that Jesus said about the word he spoke not being his but his Father's. Jesus said not to call him good as the credit for the good in him belongs to who?

Now ask yourself if this is really true as you said: "If being in Christ is being in another man who simply has found favor with God, then we are IN someone in whom nothing good dwells!"

Do you see that as a wife is sanctified in her husband by virtue of her husband's relationship with God, so also we are sanctified in Christ?

Do you understand that is based on the man being the glory of God but the woman being the glory of the man?

I hope my not quoting the exact scriptures pertaining to these things is OK by you as I know you know them and thus am leaving you free to exercise their recall in your own mind. That actually benefits you more than my stating every detail for you.

This is probably a good time for you to also ask yourself why sometimes we are spoken of being (Romans 8:1) “in Christ Jesus” and at other times he is spoken of as (Romans 8:10) “Christ be in you”.

Romans 12:5 “So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.”

Genesis 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

Matthew 19:5 "And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?"

Matthew 19:6 "Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

Mark 10:8 "And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh."

Ephesians 5:31 "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh."

Do you see that it is all a picture of the marriage of a man and a woman? And that is how we are in Christ and he in us?

Do you see then that is why this is such a serious sin? 1 Corinthians 6:16 "What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh."


We are joining Christ's body to a harlot when we do that. Not a thing he will take lightly.

1 Corinthians 6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

1 Corinthians 11:7b "... he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man."

Christ's body is that temple of God. God's goodness inhabits that temple like liquid fills a vessel.

The temple was a dwelling place for God by His spirit. The spirit in a man either homes to and synchronizes with God's spirit or it errs and goes independent of God.

Christ's spirit never errs. Christ's spirit is always homed in on and in sync with his Father's spirit.

Thus, Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Do you now see that is because if we have not truly become one as in wed to Christ one body with him then our spirit does not home to and sync with God's spirit as his does?

A wife is saved by her loyalty to her husband's spirit. Therefore if her husband's spirit is directed where it ought to be directed he saves both himself and his wife.

And the children are also sanctified by their loyalty to the spirit of their parents so that they benefit in that the husband (their immediate father) has his spirit directed where it belongs in God.

Because I have confidence in you that the spirit I believe I see in you is genuine and does try honestly I am going to take this picture one step further with you for now. I believe you can handle it.
__________________

1 Corinthians 6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

It is so easy to assume that is telling us Jesus' body is God. But is it telling us Jesus' body is God? Or, only that we have Jesus' body given us of God?
____________________________

There are two key scriptures that will answer that question for you.

Matthew 19:6 "Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

John 6:65 "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."
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Do you see the Father offering His Son for a marriage agreement?

Is it or is it not true that though Jesus not be God you have his body by God?
 

Vengle

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Sep 22, 2011
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How is our power derived to be faithful?

It is the power of God's love come to be in us because He loved us first. And it is the power of Christ's love come to be our love as he has become so beautiful to us by how he has loved us.

We could relate many scriptures which show this and which show that if we really love him it translates to our always obeying him, but let's bring it down for a second to something almost everyone can relate to. (Especially since the whole thing is pictured for us as a marriage based in love.)

Young love. Look at the dedication of a young man and woman before their eyes have had a chance to see each others flaws.

They are inseparable. You cannot beat them apart with a stick. :lol: And all they think about is each other.

In this world because of the eventual disillusion we most all experience we have told ourselves that is a false love. Lust (though lust can also be involved) ought to not be confused with this true and deep love. For, lust by itself would not keep one cemented to one person so faithfully. Lust would be busy spreading itself around. That is the nature of lust.

So it is not false love. (What else would have made Jacob work so hard to receive Rachel?) It is just that our lack of experience ruins it. We will not find those flaws in God and his Son and that love will remain strong and just as binding always once we have really achieved that level of love.

How is that "in him"?

That kind of love binds two as one.

Just as in the two become one flesh (or, are supposed to anyway) in marriage.

If you have noticed, there are places where it speaks of Christ in us and places where it speaks of us in Christ.

What is that?

That is the two become one flesh as in marriage, I in her and she in me.

She is as my body and her body is as mine.

As we love because God loved us first, is that not God working in us both to will and to do?

He loved us by giving us His Son who is beautiful in our eyes.

Is it not God's love which now works in us both to will and to do?

How could it not be?
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Oct 29, 2017
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It says of Christ that he is the firstborn of creation... I have seen this used to say that he is not God, but rather a created being.

But if it were so, how could it say...

[sup]1[/sup] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [sup]2[/sup] He was in the beginning with God. [sup]3[/sup] All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (He also says he was there before Abraham)

AND

Acts 13:33
God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘ You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’

Christ was begotten at resurrection? Rather the new creation, of which he is the firstborn. Christ is the firstborn of the new creation, all the while being God.

I have come across people who believe in the Trinity concerning this scripture in Colossians 1:15
who say that “first-born” here means prime, most excellent, most distinguished; thus Christ would be understood to be, not part of creation, but the most distinguished in relation to those who were created, but if that is so, and if the Trinity doctrine is true, why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the firstborn of all creation? But the Bible applies this expression only to the Son, I find that interesting. According to the customary meaning of “firstborn,” it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons. Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies—the firstborn is part of the group. “The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel; “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of Pharaoh’s family; “the firstborn of beasts” are themselves animals. What, then, causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15? Is it Bible usage or is it a belief to which they already hold and for which they seek proof?
 
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